HEY, WAYABVPAR, GET OUT OF THE POKER ROOM

[schild]

Now A Felony In The State Of Washington To Play Poker On The Internet
May 28, 2006
 
As of June 7, it is now a felony in the state of Washington to play poker on the Internet. The bill, S.S.B. No. 6613, has stirred up great anxiety in poker forums. Many feel, correctly, that they have been blind-sided. I searched the databases of Washington newspapers and could find almost nothing written about the law as it was making its way through the Legislature. In fact, when the Seattle Times published an article about bills to make Internet gambling a crime, it only mentioned proposals pending in Congress.


Now, players are worried that they might get arrested. Some are trying to organize political committees to get the new law changed.


In the real world, the new law will make little difference. In fact, the Washington State Gambling Commission has taken the official position that the bill merely "clarifies" existing law:


Although Internet gambling has never been an authorized activity in Washington, this law was passed to make it very clear that Internet gambling is illegal in Washington. This includes gambling on the Internet, operating an Internet gambling site, or facilitating Internet gambling in any way.

Is the Commission right, that being a mere bettor has always been illegal in Washington? Yes - at least to some forms of gambling.


Prior to being amended by S.S.B. No. 6613, the law read:


Whoever knowingly transmits or receives gambling information by telephone, telegraph, radio, semaphore or similar means, or knowingly installs or maintains equipment for the transmission or receipt of gambling information shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor...

This made betting by phone with a bookie a crime. But it is questionable whether playing poker on the Internet fell under this law.


Other Washington statutes make it a crime to participate in any form of gambling that is not authorized by the state or a pure social game. But there is at least some doubt as to whether these apply to the Internet at all, let alone to a game where the operator and all of the other players are in foreign states.


S.S.B. No. 6613 added the words "the internet" and "a telecommunications transmission system" to the list. So, it clearly now is a crime to send or receive any gaming information online, which would include playing poker.


Washington is probably the only state to expressly make it a crime to merely bet online. It certainly is the only state to make it a felony.


A "Class C felony" means a maximum penalty of five years in prison and a $10,000 fine.


It is interesting to speculate who was behind this bill. The real impetus appears to be a desire to prevent the State Lottery from using the Internet. But other political players probably had a role in creating this draconian law.


Making Internet gambling a felony allows religious conservatives, opponents of Indian gaming, and anti-gambling activists to make a strong statement. Some of them may even have thought the law might be enforced, although even they must know that no one is ever going to be arrested for playing poker from his own home.


And then there are Washington's licensed card clubs. As the Commission stated, in its Focus on Gambling Newsletter, "Some card room operators asked that we help get the word out that gambling over the Internet is illegal."


The Commission complied. It created a sign that can be posted in poker rooms to remind players that, at least in Washington, they must leave home to make a legal wager.

I figured this might be important to you.

[Righ]

facilitating Internet gambling in any way.

All ISPs to close in Washinton?

[schild]

facilitating Internet gambling in any way.

All ISPs to close in Washinton?

Yes.

[Ironwood]

Yet more dumbass Internet Laws.

Woot.

[Strazos]

[sarius]

Yet more dumbass Internet Laws.

Woot.

No shit.  Nomination for the most impossible to enforce law ever conceived.  Illegal immigration is easier to control!

[bhodi]

Seeing as how the penalty is worse than that for child pornography, I think they're betting on the penalty making people 'think twice'.

[eldaec]

facilitating Internet gambling in any way.

All ISPs to close in Washinton?

Yes.

I guess they squeak through on the word 'knowlingly'?

More dumbass excuses for the authorities to go fishing in ISP data though. So hooray for that. Or something.

[HaemishM]

Way and I talked about this. It sounds to me like the Washington politicos in the backpocket of their casinos are trying to force people to gamble at the local casinos, thus generating more tax revenue (and kickbacks!).

[Engels]

Score a point for hypocrisy in WA state, yay! We have a very very active lottery sytem in WA state. How, pray tell, is that not gambling? And lets not mention the very successful and popular Indian casinos here.

[WayAbvPar]

Yeah, I have been hip to this for a couple of months or so. I cashed out most of my account before I went to Vegas (and didn't have to touch it...used it to pay down some debt instead) and took the rest out on 6/6/6 (appropriately enough). There has been a lot of public outcry about this; one of the local newstations had a poll on their website that was running at 85% or so against the ban.

I am hoping that between the outraged citizens, the hardcore poker players (there are A LOT of people who play online for a living) and the poker sites (I alone generated more than $20k in rake for them over the 3 years I played online- multiply that by however many people are also quitting and it adds up to real money!), a referendum or intiative will reverse this bullshit. As it is now, the only online gambling I can do legally is horse racing (I use TVG- if you are interested, PM me and I can get a bonus if you sign up! Yes, I am a whore). Unfortunately, I have discovered that I could very well be the world's worst handicapper, so I am pretty sure I won't get the $5-$10k extra income from the ponies this year. Fuck.

[Abagadro]

(I use TVG- if you are interested, PM me and I can get a bonus if you sign up! Yes, I am a whore). Unfortunately, I have discovered that I could very well be the world's worst handicapper, so I am pretty sure I won't get the $5-$10k extra income from the ponies this year. 

I discovered that it was very dangerous to have the ability to sit in my underwear at home and bet 12 horse races an hour.

As for poker, just play. They've come out and said they are not seeking to enforce it against individual users. 

[Righ]

Its probably going to be used to try and leverage mandatory escrow enabled content filtering for ISPs. WA-based Microsoft probably have a new improved version of ISA server waiting in the wings.

[WayAbvPar]

(I use TVG- if you are interested, PM me and I can get a bonus if you sign up! Yes, I am a whore). Unfortunately, I have discovered that I could very well be the world's worst handicapper, so I am pretty sure I won't get the $5-$10k extra income from the ponies this year. 

I discovered that it was very dangerous to have the ability to sit in my underwear at home and bet 12 horse races an hour.

As for poker, just play. They've come out and said they are not seeking to enforce it against individual users. 

On the very off chance that they do enforce it individually, I have no interest in being the poster boy. Felonies make it tough to stay employed, and whatnot.

[FMR]

I type this whilst playing 2 tourneys (one each on PokerStars and Paradise, yes I live in Washington), and have WOW windowed as well, damn the Horde suck in AV on this server, but i digress.

Most of the well known Washington state online 'pros', besides my good buddy WAYABVPAR, are going to continue playing as before, and I suppose will do so until the first prosecution has been made public.  As WAY could attest, with my luck, it very well could be me, I'll keep you posted.

[Signe]

WAP is your good friend?  INR?  Tell me, is it true he has a third nipple and webbed toes.  If you don't want to discuss him publicly, feel free to PM me.  Send pics, if you have the time.

Just to stay somewhat railed... has online gambling become so popular that it could seriously damage casino gambling?  I should think the majority of  people going to places like Vegas and Atlantic City do so more as a vacation package.  You know, shows, gambling, dining, etc.  Does Washington state lose so much tax money that it's worth this sort of reaction?  I know WAP enjoys going to Vegas a lot.  I always assumed it was because he got to gamble while pretty ladies served him free drinks and shook their ta tas in his face.  I'm sure he'd prefer winning/losing his money in that manner and not sitting in his living room with a hot laptop slowly radiating his nads into useless meat balls.  Am I that wrong?

[Strazos]

Actually, Atlantic City revenues are up so far this year.

[Llava]

I would imagine it's the smaller, "local" casinos losing out on most of the money.  Vegas is like a gambler's Mecca, people are always going to go there to throw money down large holes as long as Vegas provides fancy lights to decorate said moneyholes.

[WayAbvPar]

WAP is your good friend?  INR?  Tell me, is it true he has a third nipple and webbed toes.  If you don't want to discuss him publicly, feel free to PM me.  Send pics, if you have the time.

Just to stay somewhat railed... has online gambling become so popular that it could seriously damage casino gambling?  I should think the majority of  people going to places like Vegas and Atlantic City do so more as a vacation package.  You know, shows, gambling, dining, etc.  Does Washington state lose so much tax money that it's worth this sort of reaction?  I know WAP enjoys going to Vegas a lot.  I always assumed it was because he got to gamble while pretty ladies served him free drinks and shook their ta tas in his face.  I'm sure he'd prefer winning/losing his money in that manner and not sitting in his living room with a hot laptop slowly radiating his nads into useless meat balls.  Am I that wrong?

Luckily I use a desktop, so my nads are safe. Everything else is pretty much accurate. Except that you got the body parts confused. I only have 3 toes, and my nipples are webbed.

[Signe]

Wasn't there a period of time where you couldn't gamble anywhere in the US but in Las Vegas?  Or have I made that up?

[Abagadro]

The stupid thing is that online play has likely increased revenue for poker rooms by bringing people into the game and then making them want to play 'real' poker where they can show off their amazing chip handling skills. Typical shortsighted nonsense.

[WayAbvPar]

The stupid thing is that online play has likely increased revenue for poker rooms by bringing people into the game and then making them want to play 'real' poker where they can show off their amazing chip handling skills. Typical shortsighted nonsense.

Definitely. You can learn to play online at microlimits (like $.02/$.04), and move up as you feel comfortable. At a casino, the very minimum you can play for is $2/$4, and even that is rare. $3/$6 and $4/$8 are more likely to be the low limits. Not many new people are gonna feel comfortable walking into a casino and coughing up $100 to sit and learn the game. They can do the same thing for a much smaller investment online.

[Strazos]

The problem I had when playing for free online (and I imagine almost the same problem when playing for pennies) is that people don't care if they lose - they bet when they have unrealistic hands, and almost never fold.

[Abagadro]

Ya, the freebie games are a joke.  The micro games are a decent training ground (although they are either overly loose-passive or loose-aggresive depending on the table so you need to adjust as you go up).

[Morat20]

So, question here -- if I wanted to start playing online poker, where should I start? Bear in mind that right now I'm really broke (just got done with my second week long vacation this year -- neither of which I really had the money for, but family obligations more or less forced both) and would probably tool around the free rooms for a bit just to get the hang of the interface.

And even when I've cleared my vacation bills (not long, thankfully), I'd not want to be risking all that much. I'm more interested in learning and getting experience than actually wanting to win cash at the moment.

[Margalis]

At Poker Stars you can play 1c/2c tables. (That's cents)

Online gambling has without a doubt increased Casino revenue. Foxwoods recently expanded their poker room. These casinos think that now that poker is popular it's a good time to shut down online gambling so they can make that much more money.

Of course, if the casinos offered online gambling themselves there wouldn't be any complaints at all.

[Abagadro]

Ya, I'd say Stars has the best uber-micro but when you get up to .50/1.00 Party starts having better games/more fish.

[Morat20]

I'll probably download and tool around with PokerStars freeplay tonight, then. I do agree that people playing for play money act differently than those betting the real stuff -- even if it's just nickel and dime games.

[Signe]

For some reason, I just can't wrap my head around poker being so popular.  Maybe it's because of all this celebrity poker stuff... or maybe they're into it because it's popular.  It's just seems odd.

[Morat20]

For some reason, I just can't wrap my head around poker being so popular.  Maybe it's because of all this celebrity poker stuff... or maybe they're into it because it's popular.  It's just seems odd.

I can speak for myself -- I've always liked playing, but couldn't find many people that wanted to play. If you don't have the money for a Vegas trip, or are intimidated (or don't have the money) by the thought of learning painfully at tables in Vegas (even their cheap games add up fast), online poker is a hell of a lot better option.

You don't learn the psychological cues (tells and such), but at least you can become comfortable with the terminology, the game play, and get an intuitive sense of relative odds. Then you can go to Vegas and learn how the in-person psychology works it -- cheaper all around.

I rarely watch the TV stuff. Kind of boring, to my mind, unless Cheap Seats is doing it.

[Trippy]

Wasn't there a period of time where you couldn't gamble anywhere in the US but in Las Vegas?  Or have I made that up?

If you are referring to casino gambling where you are betting against the house (i.e. excluding things like card rooms, horse race betting, state lotteries, etc.), then yes. Then New Jersey decided they wanted in on the act, and then Native Americans wanted in and then other states decided to legalize casino gambling and now it's pretty much everywhere.

[Margalis]

Whatever you do, do not do well with play money then convince yourself you are a good player based on that.

My coworker did great with play money, then he immediately jumped into $1/$2 games and lost a boatload.

I never played with play money, 1c/2c is plenty. On a bad night you might lose 20 cents.

[Morat20]

Whatever you do, do not do well with play money then convince yourself you are a good player based on that.

My coworker did great with play money, then he immediately jumped into $1/$2 games and lost a boatload.

I never played with play money, 1c/2c is plenty. On a bad night you might lose 20 cents.

I wouldn't. I keep seeing too much stupid shit in the play money area. People raising and reraising massive amounts pre-flop, people chasing the pot with a low pair, that sort of thing.

I have learned I'm quite capable of sitting there, losing slowly and folding a lot until I have a decent hand. Which is nice -- I didn't figure I had the patience, especially with play money.