The Pirate Bay gets raided.

[Krakrok]

By that reasoning, should the Mona Lisa be public domain or no?

[angry.bob]

By that reasoning, should the Mona Lisa be public domain or no?

Yes, though the Louvre allows any of it's display art to be used gratis as long as the image is accompanied by "Musee du Louvre", the title of the work, and the name of the artist. That makes it pretty much a moot point. Granted, they still control it's use, but like most "famous" artwork it's use is so commonplace it's de facto public domain, if not in fact.

[Chenghiz]

Certainly there is a point at which copyrighted works should become public domain. But that's a completely different issue than pirated Windows XP distros and the latest sequel to X-men getting tossed around on piratebay.

It's the same.

When should Windows XP enter the public domain? 150 years from now when it's decaying in some landfill or sooner? What about Windows 1.3? Or MS-DOS 6.2? Under current law it will be around 2140.

No, it's not the same. You are still talking about things that have lost their relevancy and lucre to the owners. Don't pretend to me that Microsoft doesn't still make a large portion of profit off Windows XP and the related Office Suite etc. Also just because the laws are stupid is not a reason to break them. If you think the laws are stupid, be proactive and work to get them changed.

[Tebonas]

You make it sound like that is an option for the average person. So tell me, how would you do that?

I know my limits as a person, and therefore I break stupid laws if I don't agree with them. And I vote according to the view the politicians show on these topics.

[koboshi]

I actually don't think Mickey Mouse should EVER be public domain. Should 60-year-old Disney movies become public domain? Sure. But the character itself? That doesn't make any sense to me, and I don't see how Micky Mouse being public domain improves society or anything like that. I may be getting lost in the whole copyright, patent, trademark differentiation though.

History lesson, Steamboat Willy was the first cartoon to feature synchronized sound. It featured the character Mickey Mouse. The short was based on the film Steamboat Bill Jr. which stared Buster Keaton. If the law as it now stands was in effect Mickey Mouse’s most historically significant feature would have been exposed to litigation by the Steamboat Bill Jr. copyright holders and the damages rewarded to them could have destroyed the fledgling animation house.

Mickey Mouse owes his life to public domain; it would be only fitting that he become subject to it.

But to make a more general point which may be a little closer to what you’re asking. The character of Hamlet is public domain. He has been performed perhaps hundreds of thousands of times both privately and publicly, within the last ten years alone. The character has been played by all races and both genders. He has been played interestingly, differently, terribly, and inspiringly. Characters should be public domain not just for those who wish to perform it precisely but for all the performances and for all that those performances can teach.

 Walt was no William and Mickey is no Hamlet so why is it that some believe that Mickey will be used more than Hamlet and to more sinister ends?

[Merusk]

I actually don't think Mickey Mouse should EVER be public domain. Should 60-year-old Disney movies become public domain? Sure. But the character itself? That doesn't make any sense to me, and I don't see how Micky Mouse being public domain improves society or anything like that. I may be getting lost in the whole copyright, patent, trademark differentiation though.

I think you are.   Mickey could continue to be a Disney Trademark, letting them alone use him for advertisements and - I think - merchandise.  (I've no clue how TM applies to merchandising.)  Moving into the public domain would mean the old cartoons could be freely distributed by whomever, and not subject to Disney's "Release it on a new format /with new features for a limited time every 10-15 years" business plan, nor would it require anyone to pay Disney for that distro.  THAT is what scaes the fuck out of both WB and Disney.

[schild]

It's not America's fault Disney had 2 golden ages and can't afford to lose either one to open distribution.

They can keep fucking Mickey Mouse though.

[Cyrrex]

As much as I can dig the whole "stealing is bad" part, I have a big problem finding out who the victims are.  And by victim, I mean someone who is not a platinum-selling millionaire musician, or a faceless multi-national corporate juggernaut.

On the flip side, I tend to think of the typical pirate in one of two ways:  the first is the guy who isn't otherwise going to fork out money to watch X-Men 3 (or whatever) for any price.  The second is the guy who may pirate the shit early, but will also go to the theater 18 times, and buy every DVD edition that ever sees the light of day.  Maybe that is a bit naive, but if it is even remotely true then I still do not see the victim.

[Krakrok]

If you think the laws are stupid, be proactive and work to get them changed.

Believe me, motherfucker, I do my part so don't try to lecture me when you know jack and shit. Your other 'point' is a strawman which I won't even bother with.

[Chenghiz]

If you think the laws are stupid, be proactive and work to get them changed.

Believe me, motherfucker, I do my part so don't try to lecture me when you know jack and shit. Your other 'point' is a strawman which I won't even bother with.

So really, your arguments are just an excuse to steal? My other point is hardly a straw man, but I understand if you want to avoid it. It seems I've made the mistake of taking up an argument with someone who's interested in justifying their actions, not solving some societal wrong.

[HaemishM]

I think his point is that the average person, be they pirate or legitimate consumer or some combination thereof, has almost no chance to make a change in this. They can't pick up for a week, fly to Washington with 14 lawyers all arguing the minutest details of case law and speak before a Congressional body. They can't treat Senators to hooker-filled resort vacations. They can't hire a gaggle of experts with 50-billion record long spreadsheets demonstrating that Grandma Moses' download of "Walk the Line" has bankrupt an entire industry.

All they can do is bitch to their Congressman and hope he listens. Or post on message boards.

Or just stop buying fucking music, thereby proving the point with a nuclear bomb.

[Chenghiz]

That's the sort of attitude that merely fulfills itself. Ever heard of the Spiral of Silence?

[HaemishM]

No.

But seriously, what would YOU suggest we do to get an unfair set of laws changed? Sue the RIAA? Try to take them to the Supreme Court? Good luck with that, considering how much it costs to get an ambulance-chasing lawyer, much less a good one with the crusader gene. I'd rather just not buy music.

[Krakrok]

So really, your arguments are just an excuse to steal?

That's the argument you want to be arguing against but since that isn't my position you continue to strawman.

By all means continue, at this point it's highly amusing watching you make an ass of yourself.

[Chenghiz]

Do explain your position then, in small words so I can understand it.

[Merusk]

It's not America's fault Disney had 2 golden ages and can't afford to lose either one to open distribution.

They can keep fucking Mickey Mouse though.

I don't disagree one bit.  The guys with the vested interest and the big bags of money for bri... political contributions, however, hold a different position.

[Simond]

TPB is back up, btw.

[Rodent]

Things this achieved, the swedish police had their site DOS'ed and the minister of justice has fallen under review to see if he preassured to police into raiding Pirate Bays ISP.There's also going to protests held in the two largest cities in Sweden today.

The Pirate Party has grown to the third largest political party in membershipwise, how many people will vote for them in the elections this fall remains to be seen.

[schild]

Great cheers of jubilee echoed in the entertainment Halls of Justice yesterday, confident of their victory against the great Satan, ThePirateBay.org. ThePirateBay.org, as many are aware, was perhaps the largest BitTorrent tracker in history. Although it was regarded as little more than a pillar of piracy by the entertainment industry, it provided a simple avenue and interface for artists to release creative commons work to the P2P crowd.   

This world came crumbling down on May 31, 2006. Seemingly immune from copyright infringement prosecution in their native Sweden, police from the National Crime Unit executed raids against the Internet Service Provider Rex|Port 80 and web host PRQ.

After the successful execution of the raids, the entertainment industry’s media machines went into full force. The MPA (Motion Picture Association) claimed Swedish Authorities had “sunk the Pirate Bay.” The IFPI (International Federation and Phonographic Industry) also clamored the raids, stating “This is a very good development for the Swedish music industry and for the real innovators and entrepreneurs who are trying to build a legal online digital business.” Antipiratbyrån, the Swedish anti-piracy bureau, also expressed its satisfaction after a long string of copyright enforcement impotence.

So now that ThePirateBay.org is offline, the celebration can go into high gear, right?

Remember we’re dealing with file-sharing, the ubiquitous hydra that simply cannot die no matter how many press releases you throw at it. If you destroy one file-sharing network, another will take its place. Remove ten BitTorrent indexing sites, 20 more will pick up the slack. ThePirateBay.org is no different, but in holding true to their nature as defiant to the entertainment industry, this BitTorrent tracker and indexer is scheduled to return within two days.

Although all tracking and indexing abilities are currently offline, ThePirateBay.org domain is still functioning. For the last 36 hours, it has been providing various updates on the raids and status of its administration. And true to their nature as being defiant in the face of the entertainment industry, ThePirateBay.org’s days are far from over.

In large, bold text, the following text is scrolled mid-screen:

“SITE DOWN - WILL BE UP AND FULLY FUNCTIONAL WITHIN A DAY OR TWO”

Yesterday, ThePirateBay.org spokesperson “brokep” informed Slyck.com “we are moving it to another country if necessary.” It appears ThePirateBay.org is making good on this promise. Carl Lundström, president of Rix|Port80 told Slyck.com “As I take it, they have bought new servers, installed back-ups and are already up and running tests in at least one foreign server centre.”

It seems once again the entertainment industry is about to shoot itself in the foot, unable to stop the global spread of file-sharing. Considering the speed in which ThePirateBay.org is scheduling its return, (which requires a substantial amount of logistics, organization, leadership, and not to mention equipment), it would appear they were well prepared for this event. The same cannot be said about the entertainment industry.

[Engels]

If PirateBay relocates to somewhere like the Caimans, the MPAA is going to rue the day. At least in Sweden they had some leverage to negotiate. Off shore legal havens? Not a chance.

[Righ]

Cayman Islands - caimans are crocodilia of the alligatoridae family. There is no safe haven free from bribery (or what we euphemistically call "special interests" in our cilvilized land). If the MPAA wants to spend the money to unravel laws on foreign shores, that's all it takes. I dare say its cheaper and easier to manage in a small country even if their per capita wealth is high - fewer individuals to bribe.

[Engels]

My spelling stands corrected, but I think you forget that tax shelter islands make their money by providing the security disreputable people or those seeking tax havens need to hide from their countries. If they give in to the MPAA, they undermine their reputation for security, and the rest of the world has a HECK of a lot more money invested in the Cayman islands than even the mighty MPAA can compensate for.

[bhodi]

Veering away from opinion for a moment, here's some news on it, ripped from digg.com:

The Pirate Bay is back, sporting a new logo. Search feature will be online later. Searching for now gives the message "no hits due to politics"

The Pirate Bay (TPB) Announced in Copenhagen that the site will be hosted in 4 individual locations, Holland, Russia, Ukraine, and one additional EU nation, All a result of hosts helping them out after MAFIAA's ill treatment of their previous hardware. "The Pirate Bay is going to be stronger than ever"

Mikael Viborg delivers his story about his questioning by the police: "They only seem to want to know answers to questions they already have the answers to. Questions that I know that they already have the answers to" "... issued by the prosecutor to collect a DNA-sample from me."

I find this piece of the last article very interesting:

Apparently the take down has been orchestrated by the MPAA lobbying the US department of foreign affairs to in their turn put pressure on the Swedish department of foreign affairs. This result in those representatives for the Swedish authorities of justice visits the US. Here they are told that there has to be a final solution to the pirate bay problem, they also informs the Swedish delegates how such a solution should be implemented.

Upon returning to Sweden the Swedish minister of justice, Thomas Bodström, is informed about the situation and in short he acts in a way that is way outside his sphere of legal influence, ignoring the separation of powers and affectively, through his secretary of the state, ORDERS the police and attorneys office to take action against The Piratebay even though both the police and the attorneys office had already told him that they lacked the legal grounds to launch such an investigation.

I think it's funny watching the MPAA and RIAA play 'whack-a-mole' becuase these guys have some unbelievable support. If in fact they did something illegal, officals are going to get burned hard. Hopefully enough so they don't dare try something like this again.

[Righ]

My spelling stands corrected, but I think you forget that tax shelter islands make their money by providing the security disreputable people or those seeking tax havens need to hide from their countries. If they give in to the MPAA, they undermine their reputation for security, and the rest of the world has a HECK of a lot more money invested in the Cayman islands than even the mighty MPAA can compensate for.

Providing a tax haven does not require that the host nation maintains otherwise permissive law. People will put their money in a country that doesn't tax it irrespective of what they do with web sites or wanted fugitives or whatnot. You didn't see Ronnie Biggs hiding out in Grand Cayman, nor can you get away with smoking a reefer on the beach there (they are an MLAT partner with the US and part of the British Commonwealth). It's not mandatory that tax havens be entirely anarchic despite what some IRS agents may tell you.

[Engels]

I think you're oversimplifying the nature of these off shore tax shelters. Sure, they are not lawless, but their entire industry circles around letting people get away with things there that they couldn't do in their own. When we talk about bit torret file indexing, we're not talking about crime with a capital C. You cannot convince me that If these countries allow foreign governments to pressure them into asset siezures like we saw in Sweden that there wouldn't be a sudden, huge and devastating blow to their economies.

[Tebonas]

What really shocks me about the situation is that after democracy the new export product of the US government seems to be abolishment of separation of power. I really hope the Swedish justice minister will have to face consequences if that is true.

Telling foreign countries how they should handle internal affairs is one thing. But those people there doing the bidding of a foreign country? Thats basically treason.

[Righ]

You cannot convince me

Good form of debate. We're done.

[Fabricated]

I can't believe the RIAA/MPAA have that much clout to influence another country's politics.

The Pirate Bay guys should put a server back up in Sweden as soon as humanly possible when they get this cleared up and prove they were in the right as far as the law is conerned in their country. Send a fucking message to the MPAA/RIAA for once. If the RIAA/MPAA put down a site and it comes back legally doing business as usual it shows the MPAA/RIAA that they are impotent as well as braindead.

[Engels]

You cannot convince me

Good form of debate. We're done.

Taking your marbles and going home so soon? If you could provide some form of evidence that these countries have, in the past, allowed foreign countries to pressure them into assest sieizures, then hey, I'm willing to say I'm wrong. Normally you argue to the hilt, Righ. Bit surprised at this little pout.

[JoeTF]

My take on copyright (as in music/movies/games, not patents and trademarks):
1. Get rid of distributor monopoly.
Pretty much every evil in music can be attributed to The Cartel. I doubt there would be single person on those forums who loves game distributors either. So:
-copyright holder should be obliged to sell distribution rights to _anyone_, at the same price(prices may vary depending on geographic location).
-copyright holder shoudn't be allowed to directly distribute his goods.
It means that our dear distributors will have to compete with each other, bad for them, heaven for everyone else. Moreover, you can burn your friend a copy and as long as you pay up the copyright holder, it'll be legal. Of course, copyright holders will be responsible for promotion, which will finally bring some sanity into this market. Author hires PR agency for promotion, goes to bank for a loan if he cannot afford it. Like everybloodyone else.
2. Piracy. Yay!
Create digital ownership deeds instead of licences. And hold their hashes on some goverment servers. since they're prsonal, you cannot pirate them. Penalties for piracy stay the same.
   

[Signe]

You cannot convince me

Good form of debate. We're done.

Taking your marbles and going home so soon? If you could provide some form of evidence that these countries have, in the past, allowed foreign countries to pressure them into assest sieizures, then hey, I'm willing to say I'm wrong. Normally you argue to the hilt, Righ. Bit surprised at this little pout.

Well, you DID say you couldn't be convinced.  Even I don't see the point of arguing if that's the case. 

[Simond]

Sited in Russia = RIAA/MPAA be fucked.
See: Allofmp3 (which is another windmill that the RIAA are tilting at).

[Righ]

Taking your marbles and going home so soon? If you could provide some form of evidence that these countries have, in the past, allowed foreign countries to pressure them into assest seizures, then hey, I'm willing to say I'm wrong. Normally you argue to the hilt, Righ. Bit surprised at this little pout.

First you tell me that you cannot be convinced, so I cease arguing. Now you come back and say that you could be convinced and insult me, insinuating that I'm being childish and petulant. Pretty poor form.

As I've said, the Cayman Islands has an MLAT with the US and this was signed into effect in 1990. In 2001 an agreement on exchange of tax information between the US and UK was signed, holding the Cayman Islands party (as a Crown Colony of the UK) so the its not even a good place to hide from US taxation these days. The highest court in the Cayman Islands is subordinate to London. It doesn't make billions out of dodgy crooks pillaging hard working Americans, it's a place that 'legitimate businesses' can operate cartels and exchange wealth without inconvenient anti-monopoly consumer protection getting in the way. As such, the UK and US governments have major interests in maintaining the supremacy of Cayman as a world banking and cartel trade center. As a part of the UK, its a signatory to Interpol. They've been running police operations with the US for years - there's far too much funny money passing hands there between upright businesses for them to piss around with a few hundred million in dirty money at a 'state' level. Plus the consequences for the rest of the UK are not worth thinking about were such crime to be sanctioned.

So, lets assume you didn't pick the right place with the Cayman Islands, and that you next choice wouldn't be the Isles of Man, Jersey, Guernsey, Sark, the British Virgin Islands or Gibraltar. Perhaps you could pick something Spanish, French, Dutch or Italian. They have offshore tax havens under their flag too. But I doubt its any easier to hide international crime (especially hot-button IP crime) under a flag of state there either. Belize? Perhaps... though they recently signed a bunch of inter-police agreements with the US too. Pretty much the only places that haven't are what are termed "rogue states".

[Righ]

Sited in Russia = RIAA/MPAA be fucked.
See: Allofmp3 (which is another windmill that the RIAA are tilting at).

There's a current criminal copyright lawsuit against the owner of Allofmp3 in the Moscow courts. The previous criminal case against the company itself was thrown out, but the judges made it clear that the company was still open to civil suits for damages. Further, new law is being drafted to close the loopholes so that Russia can gain entry into the WTO. Were these proposed laws not to be adopted, the US has already fired warning shots about vetoing the WTO application.

[Engels]

Taking your marbles and going home so soon? If you could provide some form of evidence that these countries have, in the past, allowed foreign countries to pressure them into assest seizures, then hey, I'm willing to say I'm wrong. Normally you argue to the hilt, Righ. Bit surprised at this little pout.

First you tell me that you cannot be convinced, so I cease arguing. Now you come back and say that you could be convinced and insult me, insinuating that I'm being childish and petulant. Pretty poor form.

As I've said, the Cayman Islands has an MLAT with the US and this was signed into effect in 1990. In 2001 an agreement on exchange of tax information between the US and UK was signed, holding the Cayman Islands party (as a Crown Colony of the UK) so the its not even a good place to hide from US taxation these days. The highest court in the Cayman Islands is subordinate to London. It doesn't make billions out of dodgy crooks pillaging hard working Americans, it's a place that 'legitimate businesses' can operate cartels and exchange wealth without inconvenient anti-monopoly consumer protection getting in the way. As such, the UK and US governments have major interests in maintaining the supremacy of Cayman as a world banking and cartel trade center. As a part of the UK, its a signatory to Interpol. They've been running police operations with the US for years - there's far too much funny money passing hands there between upright businesses for them to piss around with a few hundred million in dirty money at a 'state' level. Plus the consequences for the rest of the UK are not worth thinking about were such crime to be sanctioned.

So, lets assume you didn't pick the right place with the Cayman Islands, and that you next choice wouldn't be the Isles of Man, Jersey, Guernsey, Sark, the British Virgin Islands or Gibraltar. Perhaps you could pick something Spanish, French, Dutch or Italian. They have offshore tax havens under their flag too. But I doubt its any easier to hide international crime (especially hot-button IP crime) under a flag of state there either. Belize? Perhaps... though they recently signed a bunch of inter-police agreements with the US too. Pretty much the only places that haven't are what are termed "rogue states".

You do make good points and you may be right that with a hot button issue such as IP, the authorities of these havens would bend over backwards to seem 'law abiding' to make sure they do not draw heat onto their otherwise dubious tax-sheltering activities. Who's to say until it happens. I do apologise for having used what I simply meant as a turn of phrase when I stated that 'you can't convince me'. I certainly didn't mean to seem obstinately stuck in a preformed opinion.

In any case, all you state brings to mind a project undergone during the late 90s by a bunch of IT professionals. They wanted to set up a 'sovereign state' on an abandoned oil platform with a fibre optic cable connecting them to Britain for the sole purpose of data storage with 100% assured confidentiality. It was in a Wired magazine article at the time, and I'm pretty sure the project never got realised, largely for logistical reasons.