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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Archived: We distort. We decide.  |  Topic: Duality: Gaming on a Mac Running Windows 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Duality: Gaming on a Mac Running Windows  (Read 26420 times)
schild
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on: June 01, 2006, 05:33:11 AM

Yegolev
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2/10 WOULD NOT INGEST


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Reply #1 on: June 01, 2006, 07:35:52 AM

Good article.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
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Morfiend
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Reply #2 on: June 01, 2006, 03:27:35 PM

17inch widescreen laptop = luv

I work on a PowerBook 17, and its great. Runs Warcraft OSX like shit, but thats what I have my PC at home for. I honestly think if more people converted to Mac, the world of computers would be a better place.
schild
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Reply #3 on: June 01, 2006, 03:48:32 PM

I work on a PowerBook 17, and its great. Runs Warcraft OSX like shit, but thats what I have my PC at home for. I honestly think if more people converted to Mac, the world of computers would be a better place.

That kind of thinking is dangerous.
Signe
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Reply #4 on: June 01, 2006, 03:49:58 PM

Dangerous, maybe, but also true.

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
schild
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Reply #5 on: June 01, 2006, 03:54:28 PM

Prove it. Yea, I went there.
stray
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Reply #6 on: June 01, 2006, 04:01:50 PM

Prove it. Yea, I went there.

For one, people wouldn't ask me how to install or uninstall shit (or do some other mundane task), or try it on their own and fuck up their computer in the process.
Righ
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Reply #7 on: June 01, 2006, 06:25:36 PM

I'm certainly looking forward to the day when I can blow a bunch of cash on one of the new Intel Macs. I run Macs because (1) I'm a Unix freak that HATES X11 with a passion (2) since I already do too much computer work invoving fixing Unix troubles, the last thing I need to be doing when I'm trying to get stuff done is fighting what I find to be the most troublesome OS in existance - Windows. I like Windows to be just a gaming platform that I can fail to back up and delete when some poisonous application clashes and causes meltdown. I'd have to get far too invloved in the horrors of maintaining a clean and healthy Windows system if I actually relied on it to do real work. The regular "gardening chores" required to maintain a happy Mac platform are pretty trivial for a Unix maven. So the day I can run a bastion Windows partition on my "real computer" for game playing will be a good day.

I don't suppose any of you happen to know offhand how well one of these new fangled Intel laptops runs Aperture and one of the big music tools - Logic, Cubase, Digital Performer? In theory the processor & graphics card should put it up there with my G5, but y'know - laptop memory, disk and bus bandwidth, etc.

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
stray
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Reply #8 on: June 01, 2006, 06:32:28 PM

This doesn't fully answer your question, but since Logic is already the core of OS X's music subsystem, I'm sure it's already pretty tweaked for Intel, along with the rest of the system.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2006, 06:34:37 PM by Stray »
Righ
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Reply #9 on: June 01, 2006, 06:44:15 PM

All three of the big music apps use Core Audio, and Aperture uses Core Graphics, so the Intel buy-in is assured. The music programs strain PowerBooks and certainly can't handle anything like the number of softsynth plugins as a G5, and Aperture is just horrible on PowerBooks. So it would be nice to know how these apps behave on the new MacBooks.

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
squirrel
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Reply #10 on: June 02, 2006, 11:29:46 AM

Aperature 1.1 runs fantastically on the Macbook pro's and less fantastically on the Macbooks. The integrated video solution on the Macbook's just isn't strong enough to really keep pace with Aperature, but i would suspect that depends on your usage. However if you're a casual photo junkie iPhoto should suffice. If you're serious about Aperature i wouldn't go with a Macbook though. I've seen it on one in a demo environment and wasn't impressed - but then i use Aperature on the Pro. However i've heard Adobe's Lightbox works well on the MacBooks as it utilizes the CPU more for processing images and it's also available as a Universal binary.

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
Big Gulp
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Reply #11 on: June 02, 2006, 03:49:36 PM

Dangerous, maybe, but also true.

I don't get the Apple love.  I just don't get it.

The OS is good, but it doesn't cure cancer, heal the lame, and bring about world peace like so many people seem to claim.  It has it's own annoyances.  The hardware is basically the same stuff you're getting from Dell, but stuffed into a pretty case with a substandard video card.  For this you pay a fairly substantial premium.  To top it all off Apple is litigious as all hell, and has a case of Visionitis that puts SOE to shame.

I love the iPod, it's a top notch piece of consumer electronics that I couldn't live without.  That love doesn't translate over to the computer side of Apple's house.  We're all very, very fortunate that MS won the desktop war, because if Steve Jobs had the sort of power that Bill Gates had the world of computing would absolutely suck.
Righ
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Reply #12 on: June 02, 2006, 04:06:55 PM

Last I saw, the Adobe beta was called Lightroom, and there was a neat indie app called Lightbox that used the Photoshop camera raw plug-in to do the hard work. But even Adobe seem confused about the name on their web pages, so have they bought Lightbox? I'm already addicted to Aperture though. I really like the "manly black" MacBook... apart from the mediocre integrated graphics. I'd really like a smaller MacBook Pro with a fast graphics chip, but its seems that for now Apple thinks that their laptop lineup is complete. If I chose now, I'd go with the 15" job.

As for Apple love? Not hardly, but I strongly disagree that we're better of with MS than Apple ruling the roost. They are both litigious fuckers of companies who stifle creativity to prop up their own IP hegemonies. And the world of computing already does largely suck.

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
squirrel
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Reply #13 on: June 02, 2006, 04:12:08 PM


I don't get the Apple love.  I just don't get it.

The OS is good, but it doesn't cure cancer, heal the lame, and bring about world peace like so many people seem to claim.  It has it's own annoyances.  The hardware is basically the same stuff you're getting from Dell, but stuffed into a pretty case with a substandard video card.  For this you pay a fairly substantial premium.  To top it all off Apple is litigious as all hell, and has a case of Visionitis that puts SOE to shame.

I love the iPod, it's a top notch piece of consumer electronics that I couldn't live without.  That love doesn't translate over to the computer side of Apple's house.  We're all very, very fortunate that MS won the desktop war, because if Steve Jobs had the sort of power that Bill Gates had the world of computing would absolutely suck.

FYI the video card on the Macbook Pro's is not substandard.  My laptop has a 256 PCIe ATI x1600. Pretty on par with any Dell offerings beside the SLI laptops. Other than that you're entitled to you opinion - facts FTW and all that.

EDIT: Yeah i was thinking of Lightroom - whichever is the Adobe standalone product.

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
Big Gulp
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Reply #14 on: June 02, 2006, 05:05:35 PM

As for Apple love? Not hardly, but I strongly disagree that we're better of with MS than Apple ruling the roost. They are both litigious fuckers of companies who stifle creativity to prop up their own IP hegemonies. And the world of computing already does largely suck.

But the difference, and it's a huge one, is that MS is a litigious fucker company that only controls the software side of things.  Apple controls both in their little domain.  The way I see it it's bad enough being locked into an OS, I enjoy being able to pick up commodity hardware from companies forced to compete with each other, and wouldn't relish the idea of my one and only choice in hardware coming from a company that slaps a huge tax on everything they sell.  For fuck's sake, my video iPod, after buying all the doodad's (dock, protective cover, radio/remote extension, Applecare plan) cost me just a little bit north of $600.  I had to fight my inner cheapskate to pony up that amount for an MP3 player, but I did.  Would I pay similar extravagant amounts for their computers?  No fucking way.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2006, 05:14:42 PM by Big Gulp »
Tebonas
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Reply #15 on: June 03, 2006, 11:24:36 AM

I only reboot my Powerbook every time I make a software upgrade. That means months without rebooting. The sleep mode is faultless. I try that on my Windows machine some times for some days just for giggles. After that I know why I pay more and why software and hardware in the same hands are not always the worst idea.

And designwise there are worlds between the two. People that don't know shit about computers are ideal for the apple. Sit them in front of the thing and the OS works like they think it would. I, of course, had to forget some of the stupid things decades of Windows taught me. But it was worth it.

I don't think about my apple. I just open it, do my work, close it. Do you know how much time I win compared to all the aggravation I had with my Windows machine up until last April Gulp? The older I get, the more my time is worth compared to my money.
Big Gulp
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Reply #16 on: June 03, 2006, 12:23:40 PM

I don't think about my apple. I just open it, do my work, close it. Do you know how much time I win compared to all the aggravation I had with my Windows machine up until last April Gulp? The older I get, the more my time is worth compared to my money.

Laptops make more sense to me if you're going to go Apple.  They're still more pricey than from another vendor, but not too much so.  I can see going that route because a laptop is a laptop; it's a piece of equipment that you're never really going to upgrade.  You use it until it's obsolete and get a new one.

Unfortunately I'm not a laptop guy.  I like desktops, and there Apple just has too many disadvantages vs. the PC world.  With an Apple I can't just decide that it's time for an incremental upgrade and replace my motherboard or processor.  Aside from minor stuff like RAM and possibly the video card I'd be stuck with what I've got.  That's just unacceptable to me.  I refuse to grit my teeth and suffer through semi-obsolete hardware because I can't yet justify buying a whole new box, and that's exactly the choice that Apple forces you to make.

ETA:  Now that I think about it, I haven't bought a completely new computer in probably over 10 years.  I just go through a long series of continual upgrades until I get to the point that my original computer is dissasembled in a cardboard box in my closet.  Eventually I get around to cannibalizing all those parts for family members and building them an (admittedly antiquated) computer that meets their needs, which is pretty much just browsing, word processing, and email.  When I can do that with Apple then maybe I'll think about them as a possible choice.  Until then, no dice.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2006, 12:30:44 PM by Big Gulp »
squirrel
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Reply #17 on: June 03, 2006, 11:54:47 PM


Laptops make more sense to me if you're going to go Apple.  They're still more pricey than from another vendor, but not too much so.  I can see going that route because a laptop is a laptop; it's a piece of equipment that you're never really going to upgrade.  You use it until it's obsolete and get a new one.


Although I like the new iMac's and the Intel Mini I agree with you. Apple's 'pro' laptops (Powerbooks and now Macbook pro's) are terrific machines IMO. But for desktops i prefer upgradeable PC's - my desktop is an XP AMD dual core. That said, I really suggest that if you haven't had a chance to use OSX and the included iApps (iPhoto, iMovie HD, iDVD and Garage Band) that you try and find a way to check them out. For consumer home computing, photos, music and movie making they have no peer on any OS. Yes there are better Pro apps, but for free? These tools rock.

But yes, I am an Apple fanboi specifically relating to their pro laptops which i love. I'm on my 3rd one and except for gaming they are my primary machines.

Speaking of marketing, we're out of milk.
Righ
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Reply #18 on: June 04, 2006, 02:18:18 AM

ETA:  Now that I think about it, I haven't bought a completely new computer in probably over 10 years.  I just go through a long series of continual upgrades until I get to the point that my original computer is dissasembled in a cardboard box in my closet.  Eventually I get around to cannibalizing all those parts for family members and building them an (admittedly antiquated) computer that meets their needs, which is pretty much just browsing, word processing, and email.  When I can do that with Apple then maybe I'll think about them as a possible choice.  Until then, no dice.

The only real difference is that you sock away money bit by bit, then buy a new computer all at once, and just send the old one to Uncle Florence. But yes, cost and availability of modular upgrades is where PC hardware wins. Not running a Unix as elegant as OS X is where it currently fails. As Apple well knows, if it becomes trivial for non-techies to circumvent their DRM and install OS X on generic beige boxes, their hardware days are numbered. I still think that they should go that route and sell many more copies of their software, but Jobs is a yellow bellied coward when it comes to ditching proprietry hardware, as we've seen a few times in the past. Also a copy of OS X for Sun hardware. And retire the Mach microkernel and go monolithic while they're at it. Hell, just put all the high level Mac goodness atop OpenSolaris and sell it for all hardware platforms for $200. And cut me in for a percent of the action.

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
stray
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Reply #19 on: June 04, 2006, 02:36:56 AM

Uncle Florence?!

Man, my family's names are so much cooler in comparison.  Uncle Otto, Uncle Johnny, Uncle Al.

[edit] And my Grandpa's name is Severin. How cool is that?  :-D

[edit] Oh, and just to stay on topic: Grandpa could definitely use a Mac. Someone got him a Dell laptop recently -- Which is downright malicious, if you ask me.

Not to say a Mac would solve all his problems, but it'd help...
« Last Edit: June 04, 2006, 02:48:18 AM by Stray »
Big Gulp
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Reply #20 on: June 04, 2006, 04:27:48 AM

The only real difference is that you sock away money bit by bit, then buy a new computer all at once, and just send the old one to Uncle Florence.

Yes, but you're overlooking a big, big flaw there:  The amount of time (which is lengthy) you have to suffer with a subpar machine because it's not quite subpar enough to replace, just yet.  I suffer no such affliction with a PC, I just replace whichever parts are dragging the system down.  Buying a whole new rig in one fell swoop may feel cathartic, but that's because for any catharsis to take place there has to be a long period of suffering beforehand.
Morfiend
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Reply #21 on: June 05, 2006, 01:16:37 PM

The OS is good, but it doesn't cure cancer, heal the lame, and bring about world peace like so many people seem to claim.  It has it's own annoyances.  The hardware is basically the same stuff you're getting from Dell, but stuffed into a pretty case with a substandard video card. 

How do you account for them running so well then? With shit components and a decient operating system, they sure run a step above a PC/Window box. I was hardcore PC for years, but now that I work daily on Mac, I really love them. Yeah, they suck for gaming, but for every thing else, they are superior.

Also, my point about having more people using them. Its so much more intuitave to use OS X than Windows. And from reading reviews Windows Vista is going to be even more complicated. I took my friend who had been a PC guys for ab out 5 years, but was not very computer literate, and convinced him to buy a Mac. He is now a devote mac fan, cause the computer actually works the way he thought it should.

For anyone who says "Mac sucks" I say to them, thats speaking out of ignorance. Both computer setups and opperating systems have upsides and downsides.
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Reply #22 on: June 05, 2006, 01:31:09 PM

How do you account for them running so well then?

Do they?  How many times do you get the beach ball of death?  I personally haven't seen a blue screen in years, but a couple of my friends certainly run into issues (minor issues, admittedly) with their Macs.  As to them running so well, I call bullshit.  Since Mac is now on Intel we've been able to more fairly compare how a similarly decked out PC performs compared to a Mac on identical applications, and Mac has consistently underperformed the PC.

This is really immaterial, though.  I'll readily concede that OSX is a better OS than anything MS or the OSS community has put out, but is it that much better?  I've used OSX, and I've gotta tell you that at least on the desktop the advantages of OSX don't outweigh the disadvantages of being locked into Apple as far as I'm concerned.
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Reply #23 on: June 05, 2006, 03:18:36 PM

Also, my point about having more people using them. Its so much more intuitave to use OS X than Windows. And from reading reviews Windows Vista is going to be even more complicated. I took my friend who had been a PC guys for ab out 5 years, but was not very computer literate, and convinced him to buy a Mac. He is now a devote mac fan, cause the computer actually works the way he thought it should.
Maybe learning it is much less intuitive, but I have been using Windows for so long that it really is not an issue.  I AM computer literate so I don't need the OS to hold my hand.  That is not a selling point to me at all.  If I needed the power of unix, I would be running linux so it isn't hidden.

For a computer newbie OS X might be a better starter system, but they best not hope for much support from me.  I can fix some things, however my experience is limited enough that I am not interested in learning a new OS to fix every problem they encounter.

Quote
For anyone who says "Mac sucks" I say to them, thats speaking out of ignorance. Both computer setups and opperating systems have upsides and downsides.
I would tend to agree.

However, if someone said "the price of Macs suck" I would also agree...

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Trippy
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Reply #24 on: June 05, 2006, 03:48:11 PM

I don't get the Apple love.  I just don't get it.

The OS is good, but it doesn't cure cancer, heal the lame, and bring about world peace like so many people seem to claim.  It has it's own annoyances.  The hardware is basically the same stuff you're getting from Dell, but stuffed into a pretty case with a substandard video card.  For this you pay a fairly substantial premium.  To top it all off Apple is litigious as all hell, and has a case of Visionitis that puts SOE to shame.
FYI the video card on the Macbook Pro's is not substandard.  My laptop has a 256 PCIe ATI x1600. Pretty on par with any Dell offerings beside the SLI laptops. Other than that you're entitled to you opinion - facts FTW and all that.
There are a whole slew of non-SLI laptop graphic chipsets that offer better performance the Mobility Radeon X1600 including the GeForce Go 7900 GTX, GeForce Go 7900 GS, GeForce Go 7800 GTX, GeForce Go 7800, GeForce Go 7600, GeForce Go 6800 Ultra, GeForce Go 6800 and the Mobility Radeon X1800.
Trippy
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Reply #25 on: June 05, 2006, 04:01:53 PM

However, if someone said "the price of Macs suck" I would also agree...
Prices of Macs suck far less than they used to. At first glance Macs may look more expensive than, say, Dells but if you actually configure a Mac and a Dell to be roughly comparable in spec you'll find they are actually pretty close in price. Macs tend to be more "full featured" in their base configuration which is why they look so expensive. Of course if you can make do with a cheaper base Dell configuration with less features then you are better off going that way if price is your primary concern assuming you aren't wedded to OS X.
Righ
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Reply #26 on: June 05, 2006, 04:13:29 PM

The fact that those graphics chips exist doesn't mean that the X1600 is substandard. I'd hardly call the most recent graphics chipsets 'standard'. Of course you had to wait until today's new Dells came out for some of those chips to be in their lineup, so its not a very reasonable reply to a three day old comment either.

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
Signe
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Reply #27 on: June 05, 2006, 04:38:49 PM

I am also computer literate and see no problem with having my computer hold my hand if it want's to.  I don't understand the pc pundits when they use the arguement that Macs are too easy.  It's just a weird point, in my opinion. 

It's sort of sad to see this degrade into a PC v Mac hate debate, anyway.  (cheers to Big Gulp)  Why is having the best of both worlds nothing but good?  I like to think that the calibre of f13'ers is better than this crappy tired old debate.

Just sayin'....

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
Big Gulp
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Reply #28 on: June 05, 2006, 04:52:48 PM

(cheers to Big Gulp)

How am I in the Mac haters club?  I've already said that I can see going with a Mac laptop as sensible, and I think Apple has the best OS currently out there.  I've spent over $600 on an iPod and accessories.  In short, I'm not a member of the Anti-Apple Jihad. 

I do think they fall way, way short in the area of desktops on a simple but effective matrix of bang for the buck, software availability, and upgradability.  I'm also firmly of the mind that although they do have a good OS it's been vastly overhyped by Mac users.  It's good, but it's not that good, and shock of shocks, it has it's own annoyances!
« Last Edit: June 05, 2006, 04:54:31 PM by Big Gulp »
Righ
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Reply #29 on: June 05, 2006, 05:46:30 PM

Nobody has any idea of how upgradable the Intel desktops will be. There isn't one available yet, even in the hands of developers. You can actually replace the components of the G5 boxes with different ones if you like - in some cases (like processor and motherboard) its economically pointless based on the lack of component suppliers in the retail market, but can be done through the 'spares' channel. I suspect that the only problem with the Intels will be the motherboard, which will presumably have the Infineon chip that OS X will need to detect to run. Everything else should be fine for upgrades, but its all hypothesis at this stage.

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
Signe
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Muse.


Reply #30 on: June 05, 2006, 06:03:16 PM

(cheers to Big Gulp)

How am I in the Mac haters club?  I've already said that I can see going with a Mac laptop as sensible, and I think Apple has the best OS currently out there.  I've spent over $600 on an iPod and accessories.  In short, I'm not a member of the Anti-Apple Jihad. 

I do think they fall way, way short in the area of desktops on a simple but effective matrix of bang for the buck, software availability, and upgradability.  I'm also firmly of the mind that although they do have a good OS it's been vastly overhyped by Mac users.  It's good, but it's not that good, and shock of shocks, it has it's own annoyances!

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you hated anything.  I just blamed you for the debate.   smiley

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
jpark
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Reply #31 on: June 05, 2006, 08:37:33 PM

EDIT:  Great article by the way.

I am not as knowledgable as you guys but from what I see a key point is missing in favor of the Mac for those of us whose lives often involve running many simultaenous programs at once with a need to view them all:

Windows.  Folks use alt-tab so you really only see one application at a time.

Mac.  You set up a portion of your dekstop with space for each application.  You can do this in windows too - but it's cumbersome - and in Windows you get a new fucking menue bar with every application, but in Apple you have the same singular menu bar at the top of your screen.  Depending on what application window you are working on - the Apple menue bar itself only changes.

I encountered this a lot working with 3D models while importing wire frames from Illustrator - setting up both applications with their  own windows is easy on Mac - fucking cumbersome on Windows.  Ditto data analysis - graphing apps, excel, stats software all on my desktop at the SAME time - with only one menu bar to serve them all.

Think different   cool

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"  HaemishM.
Samwise
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WWW
Reply #32 on: June 05, 2006, 08:47:14 PM

in Apple you have the same singular menu bar at the top of your screen.

I fucking hate that.  Both as a user and as a cross-platform GUI developer.  As a developer it means I can't have different menus for different windows the same way I can on other platforms, and as a user I'm always wondering where the hell my application's menu went because I accidentally clicked on the desktop and the active application, unbeknownst to me, is now Finder.

Think differently indeed.   tongue

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stray
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Reply #33 on: June 05, 2006, 10:49:34 PM

I'm always wondering where the hell my application's menu went because I accidentally clicked on the desktop and the active application, unbeknownst to me, is now Finder.

It's a lot more space efficient and easier to bring them back to the foreground than when you tab down programs in Windows, I think (i.e. when things start cluttering up the taskbar).
Tebonas
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Reply #34 on: June 05, 2006, 11:12:24 PM

That irritated the hell out of me - for a few days. Thats one of the things I had to get used to and then I loved it. It now feels more natural than do a scavenger hunt across the screen for the various menu bars.
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