A Tale in the Desert - Tale 3 - goes live 6/26 noon (eastern)

[Hutch]

But I think it's the stupid levelling system Teppy put in.  Still not seeing any value in it.

We're currently limited by tech. No one can finish the Harmony init, because you need to meet an initiate of Worship, and the Worship init can't be completed until we invent camel milk and diamond mines.

For newbs coming into the game a month from now, there will be a lot more choices available for leveling. Right now it feels grindy because, even if you have finished all of the available inits, you can only reach a maximum level of 7.

[Signe]

The reason we get stuck at one place while our camels die is because the game has decided to poof our home setting.  It's really annoying to keep running all over the place.  It didn't do this in beta!  I also see no purpose in the leveling.  If any game screams, "NO LEVELS", it's this one.

Dammit.

[Xanthippe]

But the techs ARE limited by level.  I cannot go to a school to learn something beyond level 6 right now, if it's a level 7 skill.  The levelling system is going to drive _everyone_ to do things they don't want to do, merely to get the ding so they can do something they do want to do.

Like DAOC and pvp.  Even Mythic learned that lesson, eventually.

I predict people quitting when they realize they cannot get to the cool stuff without grind.  And the ones who stay will yell "who needs ya anyway, losers!"

Does Teppy just cater to the catasses or what?

(I'm just pissy because my acro was ruined! Ruined I tell you!)

[Signe]

Yes, Teppy seems to cater to the elite, catassing, obsessive players.  His aversion to publicity will do nothing to attract new players and the crowd he seems to cater to will drive off any who dare to try the game.  He also seems to mess with people.  Sort of like "gods" did on MUDs.  It's very annoying even when playing for free but when you're paying to play, it's completely unprofessional.

[Yoru]

Does Teppy just cater to the catasses or what?

Yes. He's consistently done this over the past two tellings. Both times I played for 3 months and then quit due to grind burnout and the rapidly-increasing gulf between those who could play all day every day and those with other things to do; I'm not making that mistake again with T3.

Personally, I think he's scared of losing his existing (slow-turnover) hardcore fanbase by attempting to make the game more broadly appealing.

[Akkori]

It wouldn't even take much to make it more appealing. Just put in place a limit to the number of skills you can learn. That alone will mean that casual players would have more opportunity to produce useful gear they could use to trade for other things. As long as everyone can learn all the skills in the game at their particular level, there will be nothing a casual player does that is not done a hundred times faster and in greater bulk by those who live in the game. Oh, and of course, a built in currency so a real economy can blossom.

[Nebu]

Well... I was initially very excited about playing the game again, but the addition of levels has really killed it for me. The appeal in this game was the sandbox aspect of it and many portions of that are now gone.  Between that and the whining in chat channels, I doubt I'll last my first month. 

[Signe]

I have to agree, Nebu.  This game should NOT have levels.  More than any game I can think of, levels are wrong for it.  The whining, however, amuses me.  It is the epic whining that all whining aspires to be.

PS You would think that after 1, 443 posts, "Nebu" would be in the spell checker thingymabopper.

[Tairnyn]

I was drawn to this game by the potential for filling a niche in a larger society. I really enjoyed that you could embark on a discipline path and set yourself apart from the unwashed masses with that choice. As a corrolary to that, I loved that everyone was given the easy choice of not paticipating in a particular discipline.

The addition of levels (and their symbiotic relationship with most everything else in the game) davlued many of the tests for me by coercing those not interested in them to participate to progress. (Transmute Option to Grind) As a result you have groups of people gaming the tests for their own personal gain and those that truly enjoyed the dynamics of the test having to suffer for it.

My largest complaint about the level system is the half-ass implementation. The levels were hastily implemented and it shows. There is no corrolation at all between the types of tasks you completed to get your levels and the resulting unlocked skills. So far it seems that everyone follows the same path to get the easy levels. This cookie-cutter churning out of 'experienced' citizens leaves me wondering what niche I can fit into that hasn't been saturated by level-seeking zombies.

I must agree it makes for some great drama though.

[Numtini]

I just don't get what the point to the levels is. Other than Teppy being really stubborn.

[Nebu]

I just don't get what the point to the levels is. Other than Teppy being really stubborn.

My guess is to make the game appeal to a wider player base.  A majority of players need to be led by the hand.  A key to the success of WoW imo.  The game was extremely linear in approach.   

[Akkori]

I dont mind the levels so much. STay or go doesnt matter to me. I dont like the way that potential skills and the path to get there are so hard to discover. There is soemthing wrong with being virtually required to spend time on a Wiki to figure out what it is you can do and how to get there!

There is nothing in game that allows you to see whats possible for skills. The Universities tech some things free, but certain skills are only available at certain Schools. And if you dont know which one, you're in for at leats an hour of running around trying to find it.

[Nebu]

May I suggest that you look HERE for all of that information.

[stray]

The whining, however, amuses me.  It is the epic whining that all whining aspires to be.

I looked on their boards and can't seem to find it.

[Akkori]

May I suggest that you look HERE for all of that information.

Yah, I know... hearken back to the previous paragraph, and notice how I opine that it sucks that players are virtually required to visit a wiki to learn basic stuff about that game....

[Signe]

The whining, however, amuses me.  It is the epic whining that all whining aspires to be.

I looked on their boards and can't seem to find it.

That's because it's on the regional chat channels.  The most recent was when the Test of the Obelisk opened up.  You have to build an obelisk taller than the previous obelisk in your region and it has to remain the tallest for one hour to pass.  Each time a person makes one, it takes longer to make and more resources.  People decided to form queues and build only the next size so it would be easy for everyone to pass.  Of course, some people jumped the queues or built their obelisks too high, or whatever.  It was hilarious.  People screaming that "someone jumped ahead in line!"  "You made your obeliske too high!"  "You have to do it the way we say you have to do it because we say so!"   The test reads as if it's a competition, so people who might be new, or just haven't figured out that the elite will try and dictate everyone and everything have no idea what's going on.  I think all the chat, even spacial, is logged for Teppy's own personal, somewhat perverse, pleasure.

[tazelbain]

The most recent was when the Test of the Obelisk opened up.

Yet another test not compatible with the level system. Teppy is too in love with this own ideas to see what is happening to his game.

[Xanthippe]

The most recent was when the Test of the Obelisk opened up.

Yet another test not compatible with the level system. Teppy is too in love with this own ideas to see what is happening to his game.

the test is not required to level, is it?  I thought for levelling, one needs a 7 cubit obelisk for passing the principle.

Please say no, I don't want to build a 100 cubit obelisk.

[Soukyan]

The most recent was when the Test of the Obelisk opened up.

Yet another test not compatible with the level system. Teppy is too in love with this own ideas to see what is happening to his game.

the test is not required to level, is it?  I thought for levelling, one needs a 7 cubit obelisk for passing the principle.

Please say no, I don't want to build a 100 cubit obelisk.

For the amount of time it would take, we may all be better off getting together in Egypt and actually building a real damn obelisk. Now THAT would be a trip.

[Nebu]

the test is not required to level, is it?  I thought for levelling, one needs a 7 cubit obelisk for passing the principle.

Please say no, I don't want to build a 100 cubit obelisk.

Here's the fun part:  You get 1 level for a 7 cubit obelisk.  You get a second level for completing the test of the obelisk.  At this stage of the game more levels = more skills and more advantage in passing early tests due to less competition.  The entire level design favors the hardcore catasses and leaves casual players fighting for table scraps as most tests are completed on a competitive basis. 

Yah, I know... hearken back to the previous paragraph, and notice how I opine that it sucks that players are virtually required to visit a wiki to learn basic stuff about that game....

For some reason Teppy thinks it's more "fun" to leave things cryptic for people to solve every puzzle.  Yet another flaw in logic as the puzzles are often identical to the way they were in beta favoring those that played heavily there.  Teppy is making an attempt for mass appeal while keeping the game in a state where the dedicated playerbase has a huge advantage.  I think his subscriptions are going to dwindle even more rapidly than in the second telling.  Teppy jokes that his user manual is simply "click everything".  I think he's going to be disappointed when "everything" includes the "cancel subscription" button.

[Hellinar]

the test is not required to level, is it?  I thought for levelling, one needs a 7 cubit obelisk for passing the principle.

To pass the Principle, the starter Tests, you just need a 7 cubit obelisk. The queue is for the full sized obelisk, which gets to you to be a Student of Arch. And that, if you are not already a student of something else, will give you another level. Just build the 7 cubit one.

I liked the idea of the “mini-Tests”, and Levels to count them with, when it was first proposed. Another thing to do in Egypt. But making specific Levels a requirement for learning skills or starting tests is a bad plan. So, good basic idea, bad implementation. As always with MMOGs, you can’t really judge the feature list till you see how its implemented.

Hellinar: a happy Peasant, wandering the desert collecting mushrooms, far from the drama.

[Xanthippe]

Teppy jokes that his user manual is simply "click everything".  I think he's going to be disappointed when "everything" includes the "cancel subscription" button.

Well said.

[Akkori]

Thats pretty catchy!

[Yegolev]

Teppy jokes that his user manual is simply "click everything".  I think he's going to be disappointed when "everything" includes the "cancel subscription" button.

Well said.

Haha, seconded.

I can accept that Teppy is insane, but the thing about ATitD that really confuses me is how a game like this can attract such a quantity and quality of flaming assholes.

[Slyfeind]

In his defense, that whole "click everything" manual is what attracted me to ATITD. I hate how the citizenship guide walks you through everything. For me, it's about exploring and figuring shit out. If anything is explained, there's no more game. That's like reading a walkthrough to Myst or Riven before you play it.

I made citizenship in Tale 1 with no guides, no mentors, no nothing. I just ran around and clicked everything. I was thrilled when I finally deduced how to build bricks...to say nothing of my first kiln. Now, everything's spoon-fed, and people complain that it's such a grind.

If anything's up for debate, it's whether this kind of deduction is "fun" or not. I liked it, and was sad to see it go.

[Signe]

It is a grind, Sly.  I have to say, however, having to run around and figure it out for yourself actually makes it less of a grind.  Sure, it might take longer but you are occupying your mind, not following directions. 

[Nebu]

Well... my point is that it is fun.  It would be more fun if everyone had to figure out the same puzzles from the start.  The problem is that Teppy does so little to change things that having played an early telling arms you with significantly more information that someone new to the game.  While I can understand that experience should grant you an "edge" in any game, in this title it puts you in a whole other league.  The laziness makes the wiki overvalued and forces players to decide if they want to enjoy discovery or keep up with the Jonses.  

[Righ]

First past the post competitions in a game based on discovering technology that's remained largely unchanged over several years' iterations is a somewhat gigantic flaw in subscription game logic. Teppy seems to be a pretty solid game 'creator' but an extraordinarily poor game 'designer'. Fiddling with ATitD is enjoyable, actually playing it in a gaming sense is not.

[Nebu]

First past the post competitions in a game based on discovering technology that's remained largely unchanged over several years' iterations is a somewhat gigantic flaw in subscription game logic. Teppy seems to be a pretty solid game 'creator' but an extraordinarily poor game 'designer'. Fiddling with ATitD is enjoyable, actually playing it in a gaming sense is not.

Well stated. 

The game was a ball at the beginning of T1 when everything was new to everyone.  There was competition.  There was teamwork.  Most of all, there was discovery.   Now it feels much more like an arms race than it does a game or even an mmog.  The constant bickering and posturing among players really takes away from what was once a brilliant concept. 

[Xanthippe]

The constant bickering and posturing among players really takes away from what was once a brilliant concept. 

Embrace the bickering.  Be amused by the bickering.  It's like a new game in and of itself!

Screw levelling.  Think of things that are fun to do.  Once I'm past stone blades, I'm going to make a guild called HOTFEMSIRL and plop it down in some obvious location, probably Karnak.  Endless amusement will follow guild advertisements on regional chat, I bet.

The whole "gaming" thing is a mystery and a puzzle to me as well.  I just don't get why telling people where your art or puzzle is for voting isn't gaming, but driveby acro is.  I'll find a way to exploit it, one of these days!

[tazelbain]

What happenned to your twitch?

[Xanthippe]

Playing EQ2 now for twitchiness!  I'm noobing along, and it's fun!