PVP attitudes changing?

[Lantyssa]

I code on a MUD that has the 'ultimate' in meaningful PVP - permadeath. Sure, you can reroll, but then you need to acquire skills and resources again from scratch, which isn't the easiest thing to do for newer characters, especially if you come back with an obvious chip on your shoulder. The threat of blowing months or years of character development and connections keeps most players relatively civil to each other - at least, to their face; there's no telling what people say or plot behind each other's backs.

Murderers, especially those who kill randomly, are swiftly and permanently dealt with. Inter-social-group wars are infrequent, but often bloody, events.

Granted, you can claim that since this is only a moderately sized MUD, we're selecting in favor of a more mature playerbase, since most kiddies will avoid anything with less than 20,000 boobie polys these days. Still, while words sometimes get heated, I find that actual PK is relatively rare.

MUDs have another advantage with the smaller player base -- people know who you are.  They can find you.  It really helps keep people in line.

[Morat20]

MUDs have another advantage with the smaller player base -- people know who you are.  They can find you.  It really helps keep people in line.

That's for sure. There's a scammer and ninja-looter on my WoW server who is legendary. And despite this, a long ban, the fact that as soon as he starts talking on the LFG or trade channels people start saying "Don't trust him he's a ninja looter, scammer, etc", people still group with him and bitch "OMG, this mage just needed that BoE blue plate helm I've been down here five times for..."

The most infamous fuck on our server, and I'd guess half the players have no idea who he is.

I do know he stopped doing PvP, because the Horde recognizes him and seems to enjoy killing him.

[HaemishM]

Nebu, you think Shadowbane would be a success if it was redone with Warcraft brand?

I am not Nebu, but I honestly believe that if Shadowbane had the Blizzard polish it would be the game I'd be playing.

Warcraft doesn't mean shit. The game actually, you know, WORKING means everything.

Hell, if Shadowbane had just WORKED, just been a working fucking product that didn't shit the bed every 5 seconds or when you looked at it funny, it'd probably be the game I'd be playing. Or I would have played it longer than WoW.

[HaemishM]

Why would they want PvP with an enormous pile of annoying shit on top of it when they could just have PvP?  I can (a) die with no consequences and still enjoy the overwhelming majority of the game's content (because it's in PvP-free instances) at the snap of my finger or (b) I can die and have this city I worked on for months ripped to nothing overnight and then be locked out of a huge portion of the game's desireable content for a very long time thereafter.  I'll take the first one prz.

I really don't want to argue that SB is better here (though I do think you and Merusk are a little inclined to just point out it's negatives). It's all beside the point anyways. I'm just surprised that a PvP system with less features and possibilities is a success, even though it has an almost identical ruleset to SB's (i.e. I can get ganked and annoyed just as easily by 5 +lvl players in Stranglehorn, and blocked from quests and mobs just as I could outside Khar in SB).

Here's the thing. Having a city that you put blood, sweat and tears into being destroyed IS NOT A FEATURE. At least not to the majority of people playing MMOG's. It's just not. Having the city is, but losing it is a feature very few people want. They want to be able to lose, not be able to be anally raped, spit upon and destroyed. I think the creators of Shadowbane didn't think about the fact that most wars, even in medieval times, did not result in nation-destruction, only a slight imbalance of the spreadsheet. It was a rare army that just wholly destroyed the losing nation completely.

Features are things like more classes to play, putting skulls on your armor as decoration, more zones.

[Kail]

Something was disabled on the PvE server, while it was on at the PvP server. Most of them had played CS / Quake before and so naturaly they wanted to kill other players. So they all decided on PvP server, but what do you think happend once they had to venture outside of crossroads and get ganked on a daily basis? They whined, and I think it was clearly aparant that they disliked the element of PvP, it was geting in the way of their shiny. The fun part of MMORPGs were still the grinding for them.

That sounds like a good point to me.

I've got to agree with the idea that WoW doesn't prove that PvP is the dominant playstyle.  I've heard a number of conversations along the lines of player A saying they chose a PvE server because they thought being ganked was annoying, and player B countering by saying that player A is a pussy for not playing on PvP.  These kinds of responses strongly imply not that PvP is the better playstyle, but that PLAYERS who play on PvP servers are better players (more badass, tougher, etc.).  There are people on this board who've said that they prefer PvP because it's unpredictable; that's a better reason.  However, you can't separate people who chose PvP because they enjoy it as a playstyle from people who chose PvP for some other reason (they think it makes them more badass, they have delusions of being some great war hero, etc.).  And, as everyone else has mentioned, there is very little PvP penalty in WoW.  By the time you see any PvP of any kind, you're probably around level 20 or so, which is a week or two of fairly steady playing.  If you decide you don't like the PvP after all, you can either re-roll on a different server and loose all that progress (TWENTY LEVELS!  Why, I'm a third of the way to sixty!) or you can put up with the (minor) pain in the ass that is the PvP, and rationalize it by claiming that it makes you tougher than those carebear pussies on PvE.

Meaningful PvP, in the sense of EVE or (I'm told) Shadowbane, is probably still niche.  I have confidence that it can, someday, be done in such a way that it becomes somewhat mainstream, but that hasn't happened yet.  Meaningless PvP, like in WoW, I suppose you could say is mainstream, but only because it piggybacked on top of a game that has ripped the genre open.  I don't think having PvP servers has been what has made WoW the industry giant that it is, and I don't think that copying that PvP style into other games (like LOTRO) will automatically make them more successful.

[Valmorian]

I've heard a number of conversations along the lines of player A saying they chose a PvE server because they thought being ganked was annoying, and player B countering by saying that player A is a pussy for not playing on PvP.

I LOVE seeing these kind of arguments for PvP.  The irony behind the PvP player's statements is so delicious.  The more they insult and put down the PvE players, the more they are validating the PvE player's opinion.

[Velorath]

If we all agree that the majority of WoWs playerbase were virgins to the genre when they began, then I don't think they knew what the hell PvP server really meant.

Didn't people use the term in Diablo as well though?

[Morat20]

I've heard a number of conversations along the lines of player A saying they chose a PvE server because they thought being ganked was annoying, and player B countering by saying that player A is a pussy for not playing on PvP.

I LOVE seeing these kind of arguments for PvP.  The irony behind the PvP player's statements is so delicious.  The more they insult and put down the PvE players, the more they are validating the PvE player's opinion.

On a tangent -- I fucking HATE duel spammers. No, I don't want to freaking duel you. Go to a goddamn battleground, and fight someone your own level. Oh, and if in ADDITION to pestering me for a duel, you say something like "No pets" or "No traps" I'm going to stick you on my ignore list for being too stupid to tolerate.

I've had level 40 guys challenge my level 10 priest to a duel. I've had level 60 rogues in full Tier 1 gear challenge my newly minted level 60 Hunter (decked to the max in his two pieces of Tier 0 gear) and then get pissy when I wiped the floor with him. (BM spec, hunter's mark, and a flame trap. I kited him to death). I don't tell him no stealth, do I?

I wonder if that sort of massive stupidity is more or less common on PvP realms.

[Roac]

MUDs have another advantage with the smaller player base -- people know who you are.  They can find you.  It really helps keep people in line.

Adding /whois and /locate will resolve that for any MMOG.  If you feel that is the only limitt to making PvP successful in a MMOG, problem solved.

I don't think it is, though.  The problem with PK isn't about the relative strength of the penalty, availability, etc - it's about consequence.  It's what keeps RL from turning into a grief-tastic UO.  Traditional PK only gives consequence to the victim - which is who exactly doesn't need it.  In some places you might argue it is, but what is well known is that a rise in consequence (law enforcement / judicial activity) corresponds in a decrease in crime.  So... give players tools to fight crime.

In smaller games (such as one permadeath game I played, with ~100-200 users total), the easy tool to fight crime is proximity.  The society will throw you out for breaking social rules, and at the 'tribal' level it has the ability to do so.  This tool is not enough at the thousand or hundred thousand mark, but being a nation of over a quarter billion hasn't caused the US to collapse.  In nature, you evolve or die; judicial tools have likewise evolved to meet changing needs.  Games, likewise, need to evolve.

[Phred]

I wonder if that sort of massive stupidity is more or less common on PvP realms.

An aquaintance (can't call him a friend) played WoW on a PvP server and from what he said, he got escorted through instances by guildmates most of the way up to 60. Didn't quest outside much, and stealthed around on his rogue, ambushing players in fights with PC's and already damaged. This guy isn't a kid either. He's married, early 30's, runs a successfull business. Avoiding people like this getting their jollys, no matter how painless the penalties, is what keeps me off PvP servers.

[Nija]

In case anyone has forgotten what "meaningful PVP" is - I encourage you to read the first post of this thread and skim the rest.

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=338891

edit: a very brief summary for the people who don't play Eve.

What happened here is that ASCN blew up all of their player owned stations in the region and put up their own stations. In this area of the Eve universe, if you have stations up in a system for X ammount of time, you stake your claim in the "conquerable" NPC stations. Meaning that ASCN can set who can dock at these stations and who cannot. So basically, whatever ships and items Tribal Soul members had stored in the conq-stations are inaccessable from here on out. You don't have to store money anywhere, so they keep what money they have on hand. If, say, a guy was on vacation for a week or two and had 10 battleships here, the only way he'd get them back is if he joined an alliance to assault ASCN/AXE and claim the system or somehow join ASCN. That 2nd option seems unlikely looking at those chatlogs.

Also, they can sell the stuff they have sitting there, but people would have to go to the base to claim it.

[Nebu]

In case anyone has forgotten what "meaningful PVP" is - I encourage you to read the first post of this thread and skim the rest.

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=338891

While I enjoyed the initial post, the remaining posts surprised me.  I had higher expectations of the playerbase of this game...

[Jimbo]

I love pvp,  Battlefield Lineup, Tribes series, Age of Empire Series, Warcraft series, sports games, Starwars Battlefront, oh you mean in MMOG, sure I like Planetside.  UO sucked if you weren't ready and the same skill up level, EQ sucked on the level crap and shit class balance, AC sucked on level and template balance, Diablo II sucked untill they made it you can't get ganked (now it is okay if you are set up to pvp-if not it is more a pest), DAoC sucked because you had to wack moles for way to long to go play in RvR, Shadowbane--most clunky game I've played (I wanted to like it so much) gave up on it before leaving the newbie lands.  So what has worked?  CoH where they bring everyone up to the same level to fight and WoW battlegrounds 10-50 have been fun.  Those both aren't perfect because you can be waiting forever to get a match going.

Most MMOG'er are pussies who can't stand the idea that a person could come in who hasn't been leveling forever and kill them.  So naturally the FPS crowd is alienated from MMOG since time invested seems to be a big factor in how much power your toon has.  The idea in say a FPS that if a guy has been playing 20+hours a day gets to have a cool cannon/gun that has lasers and homing missles and killer armor that no one can shoot threw would go over like a ton of lead ballons. 

[eldaec]

While Jimbo's analysis is basically correct (first paragraph at least), it's worth pointing out that Daoc introduced level 1-40 battlegrounds long ago.

Also, the twitch games would suck just as much as level based MMOG pvp if out-of-game mechanisms hadn't been introduced to ensure that most people end up playing people with about the same level of experience of the game most of the time.

Twitch games have a grind too, it's just a player skill grind instead of a character skill grind.

The problem with older MMOGs is that the grind was just too long, and in most cases was based on increasing absolute power of your character (Daoc, EQ, Diablo, UO) rather than increasing the variety of roles/skills available to a player - with a limitation on the number of roles/skills you can use at the same time (PS, EVE, MtG, GW).

[Nija]

Oh c'mon, stats didn't mean shit in UO. Wish I had that screenshot of my friend Lomax using a character named DrPepper who had 60 str, 80 int, and whatever remaining in dex defeating Kremlin CC, who was a 100 str/100 int tank mage who was thought to be the most powerful 1vs1 player ever.

I'd immediately start rolling around when I got skills in the 80s. Absolute power of your character only went so far in UO. Yeah, you only had a certain ammount of skills available to you, but so did everyone else. For awhile it was a huge checks and balances game, where there was often only one real counter for a specific attack towards you.

Then again nobody cares/knows about this because none of you really played. Insert a line from schild about "how I want to play is always the correct way to play!"

[Rasix]

Oh c'mon, stats didn't mean shit in UO.

Heh, I went back to look at my old UO characters one time I resubbed.  None had a 100 skill in any major combat category and most of my stats had crap like sub 70 str.  Those characters killed many higher skill/stat players and often took on 3 to 1 or worse odds. 

I don't think I had a stat hit 100 or combat skill hit 100 until I started playing on Hokuto to grief miners.

Edit: Heh, I remember borrowing Dr. Pepper for a duel.  The other person backed out based on Dr. Pepper's rep.  The stats/skills on that character were pathetic.  Something like 90 swords/tac, 82 magery, maybe 62 resist.

[sinij]

Reputation in early UO was very important and player skill was a lot more important than character stats or equipment. That being said, while you could excel without GM skill having 80+ resist and GM magery helped.

What helped even more is knowing how to use your character. There was a counter to everything, while you could instantly die to exp+hally+precast ebolt it is so ridiculously easy to counter that only newbies would take dirtnaps to it.

[Tale]

Almost every player on my PvE WoW server (Proudmoore) participates in PvP Battlegrounds. Running around Ironforge, it seems there is hardly anyone without at least "Private" in front of their name.

[Secundo]

I think that part of the reason why WoW PvP servers are more popular in Europe is due to the delayed launch. It launched sometime late February if I recall correctly. By then it was fairly well known from the US forums and our own open beta, that the PvE servers were kinda boring and that the PvP in WoW wouldn't cause too much trouble while leveling up.
Combined with a slightly different culture I think this could explain the big difference in popularity between PvP-PvE on US and Euro servers.

It would be interesting to know if this difference remains, or if it has lessened since launch, with all the new servers created.

[Slayerik]

I've heard a number of conversations along the lines of player A saying they chose a PvE server because they thought being ganked was annoying, and player B countering by saying that player A is a pussy for not playing on PvP.

I LOVE seeing these kind of arguments for PvP.  The irony behind the PvP player's statements is so delicious.  The more they insult and put down the PvE players, the more they are validating the PvE player's opinion.

Pussy.

[bhodi]

I shine my shield with your tears.

[heck]

For the record I want to offer that I find PVP to be better on WOW's PVE servers.  I have characters in their 50s on both a PVP (alliance side) and PVE (hoarde side) server. 

Case in point: world PVP.  On my PVE server, the best PVP I ever had was defending UC from a huge alliance raid.  It lasted 4 hours.  This is unheard of on my PVP server, as most people are getting to 60 so they can loiter in STV and kill lowbies.  And of course, as mentioned in this thread, so they can go back to their own starting areas and duel level 3's.

I enjoy the rush of PVP servers tho.  Once I got past giving a shit, it became great fun.  I don't camp and the karma usually comes back my way. 

But in the end, I prefer world pvp because it's (usually) more organized and tactical.  I don't care that there are no rewards, the fun is to do it and feel like a part of the event itself.

[Slayerik]

For the record I want to offer that I find PVP to be better on WOW's PVE servers.  I have characters in their 50s on both a PVP (alliance side) and PVE (hoarde side) server. 

Case in point: world PVP.  On my PVE server, the best PVP I ever had was defending UC from a huge alliance raid.  It lasted 4 hours.  This is unheard of on my PVP server, as most people are getting to 60 so they can loiter in STV and kill lowbies.  And of course, as mentioned in this thread, so they can go back to their own starting areas and duel level 3's.

I enjoy the rush of PVP servers tho.  Once I got past giving a shit, it became great fun.  I don't camp and the karma usually comes back my way. 

But in the end, I prefer world pvp because it's (usually) more organized and tactical.  I don't care that there are no rewards, the fun is to do it and feel like a part of the event itself.

I think the PVP server guys figured out way before the PVE folks that town raids just dont work.

Thats what bums me out most about wow, the horrible lag that happens when you get 60+ people in an area. I'd probably still be playing the game if town raids were viable, they just truely arent.

[Threash]

I never understood the point of town raids, they mostly involved pve against endlessly spawning guards with very little pvp thrown in.  You are likely to find more action roaming around the higher level exp/quest zones than attacking some random town.

[heck]

I never understood the point of town raids, they mostly involved pve against endlessly spawning guards with very little pvp thrown in.  You are likely to find more action roaming around the higher level exp/quest zones than attacking some random town.

Guys, get a sizable group to raid one of the 4 major cities.  Even tho I saw it only once, it stood out as the best pvp in WoW.  The only lag I suffered was when I first entered the crowded zone, and after that it was fine.

The alliance group that raided UC got to the circular room with the coffin, up top near the elevators.  They held that position for hours.  If done right, I'm sure a good group could find a spot like this in any major city and make it last.

This is more like "war" than ganking and lolling, to say the least.

[Nija]

Why would they do that though? People did this type of crap the first two weeks of release then quickly realized it's a complete waste of time.

I'm glad you're just discovering things like that. Before long you'll be as bitter and cynical as I am!

[Threash]

I never understood the point of town raids, they mostly involved pve against endlessly spawning guards with very little pvp thrown in.  You are likely to find more action roaming around the higher level exp/quest zones than attacking some random town.

Guys, get a sizable group to raid one of the 4 major cities.  Even tho I saw it only once, it stood out as the best pvp in WoW.  The only lag I suffered was when I first entered the crowded zone, and after that it was fine.

The alliance group that raided UC got to the circular room with the coffin, up top near the elevators.  They held that position for hours.  If done right, I'm sure a good group could find a spot like this in any major city and make it last.

This is more like "war" than ganking and lolling, to say the least.

You cant take over, destroy or basically do anything to a city other than annoy passersby... like i said i dont really see the point.  Wow isnt shadowbane, theres no reason to raid a city when it accomplishes nothing and i dont see how adding hundreds of guard npcs into the mix improves on the pvp you can already get in a bg.

[WindupAtheist]

Friend of mine will probably drag me into battlegrounds once I level up a little more.  It's something else to do, and since death means absolutely nothing, why not?  PVP attitudes haven't changed so much as the PVP being presented has.

[stray]

Death means nothing. Great. I can side with people on that a bit.

But winning doesn't mean much either -- unless you're a catass (raiders are hardly catasses in comparison). And winning definitely means nothing outside the BG's.

[bhodi]

I have more fun playing DotA than I *ever* had in WoW battlegrounds. I've dragged a few friends in and they're all but abandoned their WSG/AB/AV romps.

[Litigator]

Twitch games have a grind too, it's just a player skill grind instead of a character skill grind.

It's really absurd to make that comparison. First of all, player skill is not a "grind." A lot of people who play constantly aren't very good and a lot of people who are very good don't play constantly.  Also, being good at one action or strategy game is more or less a value that is transferable to other action or strategy games.

In an MMORPG, if you're level 25 and the other guy is level 60, it doesn't matter if you're the best gamer in the world. There's no context in which you can defeat him. You can show up with ten level 25 friends and he'll probably waste all of you.  And when you mix that with a situation where he can mug you, you end up not with "meaningful pvp" but a system where the server is terrorized by invincible thugs who destroy the game for everyone else. Getting to loot someone's shit after you stab them in the back while they're fighting a monster doesn't make PvP "meaningful." It just makes griefing a profitable occupation.

And where the PvP is based on holding territory, the problems of a persistent world interfere with the game being fun.  No matter how dedicated you are, it's not viable for most people to make defending their virtual turf their primary occupation, which means that the guy who rallies his team to overwhelm your defenses at 4 in the morning obviously has an advantage that isn't based on anything resembling player merit.

I totally understand that many people's desires for PvP manifest a desire to play "bad guys" or "outlaws" in a system that's governed by rules that are structurally impossible to  transgress, rather than a system where wrongs are possible and must be punished. I think games should provide players with an option to play as an in-game criminal or griefer, but if they do this, there has to be a significant disincentive to do so. If you just let stronger players mug weaker players and then go about business as normal, it's just open season, and it stops being fun to play for the vast majority of people.

On another note, I think it would be a lot of fun if a game took advantage of the social aspects of MMOs to create interactions among players that are more interesting and complex than "I stab you."