PVP attitudes changing?

[Arthur_Parker]

I'm going to post this here as it's come up a few times recently in one of Conan threads and a DDO/LOTRO thread.

A lot of people seem to believe PVP is a niche playstyle, but I think World of Warcraft has changed that.  Now you could argue that PVP in WoW isn't real PVP, but what we do have in WoW is a situation where players chooses a server based on it being PVE or PVP.

I grabbed data today from the US World of Warcraft server status and European World of Warcraft server status, in a vain attempt to combat the stupidity on the LOTRO forums.  The following figures have RPPVP Servers grouped with PVP Servers & RP Servers grouped with PVE Servers.

For US I get 83 PVP servers compared to 73 PVE servers.

For Europe I still get 112 PVP servers compared to 67 PVE servers.

Total servers numbers for US + Europe is 195 PVP to 140 PVE

My theory on the PVP being even more popular in Europe is mainly down to the lack of influence of early UO, anyone else care to comment?

[HaemishM]

PVP as the name of a style of gameplay is so varied. As I said in the DDO thread, it all depends on the implementation. Consensual PVP is obviously VERY BIG, based on WoW's numbers. But open PVP (Shadowbane) is not. Having a buggy implementation can also have a dramatic effect on numbers, as evidenced by Shadowbane.

PVP is not anathema to mainstream, mass market gamers, it just has to be done with careful design.

[Morfiend]

Make PVP safe, fairly risk free, and people will play it. As shown by WoW. Now, if you lost EXP and/or items or even had debt, I would imagine that the number of PVP servers would be cut in half.

[stray]

PvP may be safe in WoW, but it's also pretty meaningless (I'm talking about "world" PvP on PvP servers). I'm surprised people would prefer that over Shadowbane. It's the same thing basically -- but without depth, rewards, or consequences.

[Valmorian]

A lot of people seem to believe PVP is a niche playstyle, but I think World of Warcraft has changed that.

Who claims that?  PvP is far and away the most popular playstyle on the planet.  
Oh wait, you meant non-consentual PvP.  No, that's niche and will most likely always be niche.

There's a few reasons why PvP in WoW is successful:
1. Absolutely no loss to your character when you are ganked.  You don't lose any progress you have made so far, whether that is gold, xp or items.  You keep all three through PvP deaths.
2. It's consentual in that you know exactly where you are vulnerable.  No surprise ganks because you thought you were in a safe area where you couldn't be ganked.

[Valmorian]

PvP may be safe in WoW, but it's also pretty meaningless (I'm talking about "world" PvP on PvP servers). I'm surprised people would prefer that over Shadowbane. It's the same thing basically -- but without depth, rewards, or consequences.

There are rewards for PvPing in WoW, even if it is prohibitively difficult to obtain them.  There's no loss, but then again, I don't equate loss of character resources (gold/etc..) with meaningful, more like annoying.

[Nebu]

There's a few reasons why PvP in WoW is successful:
1. Absolutely no loss to your character when you are ganked.  You don't lose any progress you have made so far, whether that is gold, xp or items.  You keep all three through PvP deaths.
2. It's consentual in that you know exactly where you are vulnerable.  No surprise ganks because you thought you were in a safe area where you couldn't be ganked.

I disagree.  The reason that WoW's PvP is successful is because it's a part of WoW.  Those two attributes are also present in other, less successful mmogs that have adopted pvp as well.  You have merely cited two reasons why people are willing to participate in mmog pvp in greater numbers.

[Arthur_Parker]

A lot of people seem to believe PVP is a niche playstyle, but I think World of Warcraft has changed that.

Who claims that?  PvP is far and away the most popular playstyle on the planet.  
Oh wait, you meant non-consentual PvP.  No, that's niche and will most likely always be niche.

There's a few reasons why PvP in WoW is successful:
1. Absolutely no loss to your character when you are ganked.  You don't lose any progress you have made so far, whether that is gold, xp or items.  You keep all three through PvP deaths.
2. It's consentual in that you know exactly where you are vulnerable.  No surprise ganks because you thought you were in a safe area where you couldn't be ganked.

What planet have you fucking been on?  Did you fucking miss the part where I said "you could argue that PVP in WoW isn't real PVP", I wasn't talking about non-consentual PvP.  I was talking about the clear distinction a player makes during the WoW server selection process of deciding on PVE or PVP.

If I have to explain a few lines of text to you, don't bother answering the fucking question.

[Nija]

It takes a whole lot of effort to make a PVP game work. Most people won't devote as much time to it as they should (WoW, EQ2, everything excluding Eve) or just don't know how to (SB, EQ2(haha)) unfortunately.

PVP-lite games like WoW are good time wasters for a couple of months, so I look forward to the next 4 generations of WoW clones.

Like Haemish says, it's got to be a very careful design. Very VERY fine line between brilliance and a Shadowbane-esque bomb.

I hate pimping Eve in basically every other post that I make here, but I love the fact that you can carebear in .9 and 1.0 systems making 2 million / hour, tops, and be in a battleship in a few weeks. Or, you could tough it out in 0.0 and be in the same battleship in few hours.

The rub is that you could lose it in a few hours in 0.0. The way EQ/WoW clones work, with items making or breaking your guy, a system like that will never make sense.



Is the one on the right REALLY worth 26 times more than the one on the left? Even if you could lose it in the blink of an eye?

[Valmorian]

I disagree.  The reason that WoW's PvP is successful is because it's a part of WoW.  Those two attributes are also present in other, less successful mmogs that have adopted pvp as well.  You have merely cited two reasons why people are willing to participate in mmog pvp in greater numbers.

How is that different than what I said?  I didn't say WoW was successful because of the PvP.  I said PvP in WoW was successful because it didn't cause losses for the participants and it involved consent.  That there are other MMO's that are less successful overall and also have consentual lossless PvP says nothing about PvP success. In those other games, when they ARE moderately successful, the PvP is generally moderately successful as well (see DAOC).

[stray]

There are rewards for PvPing in WoW, even if it is prohibitively difficult to obtain them.

I'm drawing a blank. The only thing I can think of being rewarded with is a miniscule bit of honor (which can be obtained faster and in bigger amounts on the battlegrounds).

Also, when I'm talking about rewards in SB, I'm not talking about individual rewards necessarily (which seems to be a big part of what WoW PvP is all about). I'm talking about land/resource grabs and the like.

[Valmorian]

What planet have you fucking been on?  Did you fucking miss the part where I said "you could argue that PVP in WoW isn't real PVP", I wasn't talking about non-consentual PvP.  I was talking about the clear distinction a player makes during the WoW server selection process of deciding on PVE or PVP.

I was trying to be smart, must have been too obtuse though, I guess.  I'm just pointing out that there's nothing new here, no major shift.  WoW is a phenom, no doubt about it, but the choice to participate in a PvP server or PvE server is relatively minor.  Since PvP in WoW has no dire consequences for your character, it's not likely to indicate a change in attitude about PvP.  People have been playing lossless PvP games for ages, and they've always been popular.

[Nebu]

I disagree.  The reason that WoW's PvP is successful is because it's a part of WoW.  Those two attributes are also present in other, less successful mmogs that have adopted pvp as well.  You have merely cited two reasons why people are willing to participate in mmog pvp in greater numbers.

How is that different than what I said?  I didn't say WoW was successful because of the PvP.  I said PvP in WoW was successful because it didn't cause losses for the participants and it involved consent.  That there are other MMO's that are less successful overall and also have consentual lossless PvP says nothing about PvP success. In those other games, when they ARE moderately successful, the PvP is generally moderately successful as well (see DAOC).

The way that you stated it this time is a much better representation of what I think you meant the first time.  I happen to be in greater agreement with this iteration.

[Valmorian]

There are rewards for PvPing in WoW, even if it is prohibitively difficult to obtain them.

I'm drawing a blank.

There are PvP items you can obtain in WoW after you gain a certain rank.  It's just too difficult to GET to those ranks, because you are competing with other players on your own side for those honour points.

[Numtini]

Remove the grief from PVP and people will like it. People love PVP, they dislike "the PVP culture" of griefing, trashtalking, etc.

WOW didn't prove that, DAOC did. DAOC was also derided as "carebear" by the "real pvpers" who created the aforementioned culture of grief. DAOC and WOW prevent you from speaking to the other side which is huge. They provided some safe zones, more I think for DAOC. Eve circumvents the grief culture because it's too complicated for most of the immature jerks to play, much less enjoy.

[stray]

There are rewards for PvPing in WoW, even if it is prohibitively difficult to obtain them.

I'm drawing a blank.

There are PvP items you can obtain in WoW after you gain a certain rank.  It's just too difficult to GET to those ranks, because you are competing with other players on your own side for those honour points.

Well, yeah, I knew about those, but remember, I'm just talking about World PvP here. If I was looking to get PvP gear, I sure as hell won't go about it by killing players in Hillsbrad. I'd spend time in the BG's.

[edit] Or are you talking about something else?

[tazelbain]

PvP may be safe in WoW, but it's also pretty meaningless (I'm talking about "world" PvP on PvP servers). I'm surprised people would prefer that over Shadowbane. It's the same thing basically -- but without depth, rewards, or consequences.

Not this thread again.

Your version of meaningful isn't what people want to play.  Get over it.

Nebu, you think Shadowbane would be a success if it was redone with Warcraft brand?

[Valmorian]

Well, yeah, I knew about those, but remember, I'm just talking about World PvP here. If I was looking to get PvP gear, I sure as hell won't go about it by killing players in Hillsbrad. I'd spend time in the BG's.

Certainly it is much easier to get consistently active PvP in the Battlegrounds (not surprising, since that's the only reason someone would BE there.) but the system doesn't discriminate between honour gained there and honour gained in world PvP.

[Arthur_Parker]

What planet have you fucking been on?  Did you fucking miss the part where I said "you could argue that PVP in WoW isn't real PVP", I wasn't talking about non-consentual PvP.  I was talking about the clear distinction a player makes during the WoW server selection process of deciding on PVE or PVP.

I was trying to be smart, must have been too obtuse though, I guess.  I'm just pointing out that there's nothing new here, no major shift.  WoW is a phenom, no doubt about it, but the choice to participate in a PvP server or PvE server is relatively minor.  Since PvP in WoW has no dire consequences for your character, it's not likely to indicate a change in attitude about PvP.  People have been playing lossless PvP games for ages, and they've always been popular.

Don't try and be smart, I've been reading the LOTRO forums all day.  

I disagree, virtually everyone thought that PVE was the majority playstyle, even yesterday on this very forum someone mentioned it.  Yet in WoW we have over 50% of the population, through choice, pick the PVP server even though the PVE servers have battlegrounds.  The type of PVP offered in WoW obviously has a major major effect but why has a PVP server suddenly become the more popular choice?

[Valmorian]

I disagree, virtually everyone thought that PVE was the majority playstyle, even yesterday on this very forum someone mentioned it.  Yet in WoW we have over 50% of the population, through choice, pick the PVP server even though the PVE servers have battlegrounds.

..and yet on those PvP servers they'll also be participating in PvE the vast majority of the time.   I do see your point, but I think it just boils down to this: Lossless PvP is fun sometimes, and you can participate in it on the PvP servers more readily, and quite frankly many people DO like to Gank, even when there's no loss for the loser. 

I think there's another reason that PvP works in WoW, and that is that progress of your character is quite rapid 1-60, so you don't feel like you're losing as much time if someone ganks you.  You also have many other options for places to get XP and quests. 

[edit]
One other thing, DAOC has the same thing and even has (had?) a completely PvE server as well, yet the "normal" servers were still very successful.  The only difference between WoW PvP and DAOC normal servers is that in DAOC you never had to go to the contested areas at ALL and still progress to 60.  In WoW, you do. 

[Morat20]

Remove the grief from PVP and people will like it. People love PVP, they dislike "the PVP culture" of griefing, trashtalking, etc.

One of the most brilliant decisions WoW ever made was to keep the Horde and the Alliance from talking to each other. Sure, you can do rude emotes -- but frankly I'm generally already rezzing and don't notice. There's no trash talk, because I can't understand a damn thing they say.

[Nija]

Nebu, you think Shadowbane would be a success if it was redone with Warcraft brand?

I am not Nebu, but I honestly believe that if Shadowbane had the Blizzard polish it would be the game I'd be playing.

Warcraft doesn't mean shit. The game actually, you know, WORKING means everything.

[Nebu]

Nebu, you think Shadowbane would be a success if it was redone with Warcraft brand?

I think it would have been more successful than the original Shadowbane.  Of course, that could be attributed to either brand recognition or game stability.  Maybe both. Were it not such a buggy game, I think Shadowbane would have been significantly more successful.  Tack on the Blizzard name and you'd do even better.  

Do I think it would have been as successful as WoW?  Hell no... different markets.  

I am not Nebu, but I honestly believe that if Shadowbane had the Blizzard polish it would be the game I'd be playing.

Bah, beat me to it!  I agree that I'd likely be playing it as well.  Right now Warhammer is the title I'm anticipating most. 

[Arthur_Parker]

Anyone care to have a stab at why the EU is different to the US?

For US I get 83 PVP servers compared to 73 PVE servers.

For Europe I still get 112 PVP servers compared to 67 PVE servers.

[Nija]

My guess from right field is that the average European player has had broadband longer than the average US person. Therefore, he played more FPS games back in the mid-late 90s, so he's more inclined to enjoy player vs player stuff.

[Nebu]

Anyone care to have a stab at why the EU is different to the US?

I guess the cop-out answer would be cultural differences.  Is WoW in Korea?  If so, what are the server ratios there?  

This may sound bad, but my gaming experience has found EU and Asian players to be MUCH better at accepting losses than Americans.  As a PvP enthusiast, most players will lose encounters more often than they win, thus it requires a different temperment.  I think this may be a contributor to why pvp is more popular/accepted in those cultures.

[Numtini]

I'll put in a sure to be unpopular opinion, but most of the non-Americans I've met online have been far more mature. My guess is that PVP is more popular because there are fewer jerks. Ditto for Asia. I played in the Taiwanese beta for Lineage 2. I saw 2 reds in the weeks I spent there and neither was griefing anyone.

I lasted like an hour in the US beta. It was nothing but grief ganking and racist, homophobic, misogynist trashtalk.

Edit/Add: You could say a lot of the same things about Eve. Full PVP game and look at the level of maturity and lack of griefing. And it's European dominated.

[eldaec]

Consensual pvp in a non-retarded and reasonably balanced environnment where even a new player can have fun rather than get continually stomped on has always been popular. See CS, DAoC, EVE, Chess, Magic, etc etc.

The problem with UO, the Zeks, Mordred, shadowbane, etc is that environment was always either non-consensual, retarded, hideously unbalanced, had stupid barriers to entry into pvp, or had the risk/reward so far skewed in favour of vets that newbies just couldn't afford to take part.

On the point about Europe, I don't know why pvp is more popular, but I doubt it has anything to do with UO, which was available over here anyway, and these days is too long ago to matter a damn. It's not just an effect seen in wow though, daoc was the same if you compared average RP earnt, a quick look at the EVE territory maps suggests a disproportionate amount of territory controlled by europeans, etc etc. My suspicion is that a smaller proportion of European players are casual.

And as various others said above, all wow proved is that is possible to market mmog's to a wider market if you have the right brand. Almost every single pvp and pve concept included has been seen before and been successful before. In terms of pvp, mostly in DAoC (and ofc 90% of daoc had been done before as well).

[stray]

PvP may be safe in WoW, but it's also pretty meaningless (I'm talking about "world" PvP on PvP servers). I'm surprised people would prefer that over Shadowbane. It's the same thing basically -- but without depth, rewards, or consequences.

Not this thread again.

Your version of meaningful isn't what people want to play.  Get over it.

What?

Ganking in SB is the same with WoW, except without seiges, player cities, or land conquest. And all I'm saying is that I'm surprised people wouldn't prefer the former (SB). Surprised. Nothing more. Not that I want them to play what I play or force them into things they don't want. Try not to read so much into my post.

[eldaec]

My guess from right field is that the average European player has had broadband longer than the average US person. Therefore, he played more FPS games back in the mid-late 90s, so he's more inclined to enjoy player vs player stuff.

Broadband was rare over here prior to 2000. I couldn't get it where I live (in fricking London) until 2002.

[El Gallo]

WoW PvP is a fun, quick, and meaningless sideshow.  That's the kind of PvP that huge numbers of people have always liked.  It's like saying "97% of characters in EQ /dueled at least once, PvP is really popular."  Sure it is, if you define it that broadly.  The term also becomes effectively meaningless.

There also seem to be proportionally more PvP servers in the "low" population range, which would make me suspect that the number of active characters is closer to 50/50, but that's pretty much irrelevant.

[Rasix]

Anyone care to have a stab at why the EU is different to the US?

For US I get 83 PVP servers compared to 73 PVE servers.

For Europe I still get 112 PVP servers compared to 67 PVE servers.

Was there any launch lag for Europe or did they go live at the same time as the NA audience?  PVP servers got really popular (in that they started putting up more PVP than PVE) once Blizzard realized everyone was playing them.  That would have influenced what server PVP/PVE ratio they decided to have.

[Morfiend]

Anyone care to have a stab at why the EU is different to the US?

For US I get 83 PVP servers compared to 73 PVE servers.

For Europe I still get 112 PVP servers compared to 67 PVE servers.

Less whiney little bitches?

[Merusk]

Has anyone considered there's more PvP servers, because Blizzard wants people on them, rather than PvE servers.  As ElGallo mentioned, most PvP servers are at Medium or Low population, compared to the PvE servers.  Blizzard's been pushing PvP for a while, and balancing the game around it (while ignoring the item imbalance.. which is puzzling.) rather than PvE.

  It works out much better for them if everything is PvP.  With their slow churn of content, they can focus on more PvP battlegrounds rather than PvE raid zones which take a lot longer to balance and design.

Of course, no one reason is the catch-all.  It's likely a mixture of everything mentioned, in addition to the initial Bliz fanbase having 'grown-up' with B.net. PvP is simply how games are played.

[slog]

PvP in Shadowbane resulted in the losing side quitting the game at an alarming rate.