NWN 2

[Broughden]

Seem that at release the DM Client will not be available. They have no known ETA on when it will be available.
Seems it is being worked on but wont be ready for launch day, and they dont want to push launch back any further.

http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=480755&forum=95

Quote:  Patrick K Mills Posted: Thursday, 11 May 2006 12:41PM

The Sony rep was quoting me, I think, and neither he nor I misspoke. The DM Client will very likely not ship with the game. There just isn't enough time to finish, test, and polish it before launch and we don't want to ship something that sucks.

We do have plans to release one, but I don't know when it will be available.

[Fabricated]

Oh lord, rush to release. Please don't let this be NWN with higher poly models and shinier water.

[Trippy]

I personally don't care much about the DM client as long as the toolset ships with the game but it's nice to see that Atari is keeping up with its track record of shipping incomplete games.

[Ironwood]

That news alone was pretty much enough to sink my hope of a complicated yet fun and engrossing game.

This is gonna suck again, isn't it ?

I'll hold off buying it for TWO FUCKING YEARS till the designers can make some GOOD modules that show off it's abilities.  Right before they announce NWN3.

Sigh.

[Ironwood]

ARG ARG ARG.  WHEN WILL THEY LEARN THE DEFINITION OF 'GOOD NEWS' ! ! ! ?


"The good news is, since none of the developers here (or the testers or anyone else) have been using a DM client to test things, many of the same features of a DM client are available through script via the console."

Great.  More fucking scripting.

Edited to add :  A video.  It looks like a prettier NWN.  Shit.

http://uk.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/neverwinternights2/media.html?sid=6151026&autoplay=6151026

[Descended]

I don't get the hate.  I played other people's modules, and the modules that came with the game, in NWN multiplayer mode and had no need for the DM tool.  The DM tool is not the editor, it's a tool for some poor sap who wants to dick with other players without playing himself.  They could never release the DM tool, and the game would still be able to host persistant multiplayer worlds just fine.

Of course, I thought the first game was great, so this may be where opinions diverge.  If the new game supports the modding/creation of PrCs, I'll like NWN2 even more.

[Sky]

The DM tool is not the editor, it's a tool for some poor sap who wants to dick with other players without playing himself. 

Imagine that. In D&D.

Moron.

[stray]

I often wonder if fantasy gamers generally have a high tolerance for shit, so long as it's fantasy.

[Broughden]

I often wonder if fantasy gamers generally have a high tolerance for shit, so long as it's fantasy.

Well in all fairness the game itself still looks engaging to me atleast.

I'd rather them continue to finalize the actual game for release and then release the DM Client as a free download 1-2 months later, which seems to be their game plan.

[stray]

Actually, I know nothing about NWN 2. I won't be premature with my hate there.

I'm just talking about NWN 1. Or Morrowind. It seems like many fans of the genre actually hate these games themselves, but for some reason, they still feel compelled to play and talk about them. Kind of like Robert Jordan books. I don't understand it.

[Broughden]

Actually, I know nothing about NWN 2. I won't be premature with my hate there.

I'm just talking about NWN 1. Or Morrowind. It seems like many fans of the genre actually hate these games themselves, but for some reason, they still feel compelled to play and talk about them. Kind of like Robert Jordan books. I don't understand it.

Stray I know exactly what you mean! Im sure all of us on this site (most being MMO fans) have seen the trend time and time again.

BTW you are right about the Jordan books. They were shit and I never have understood why people kept buying and reading them.

I heard by book 5 he would spend an entire page describing a room where a trivial conversation was taking place. Five pages later someone new would walk into the room and he would copy and paste the entire description in again.

[Lum]

Oh lord, rush to release. Please don't let this be NWN with higher poly models and shinier water.

In my (brief) experimentation with the client on the E3 show floor that was in fact what it appeared to be.

[HaemishM]

I often wonder if fantasy gamers generally have a high tolerance for shit, so long as it's fantasy.

Yes.

This pretty much ensures I will not buy the game until the DM Client is released, just to prove that I don't want to pay for incomplete shit. The Toolset for NWN was a buggy fucking nightmare when released, and it was a good 2 or 3 months until they fixed the issues with the toolset that caused me so much frustration. And it still relied way too much on scripting if you weren't going to use the DM cilent, or even if you were. It's probably a decent toolset now, but it wasn't at release. Maybe after they release the first expansion I'll buy it. That seemed to be when NWN got decent.

[Fabricated]

Oh lord, rush to release. Please don't let this be NWN with higher poly models and shinier water.

In my (brief) experimentation with the client on the E3 show floor that was in fact what it appeared to be.

:(

I had such high hopes too. I know people liked the click-n-create map designer, but I was hoping for a more advanced development tool myself so people could actually make origiinal designs or remake classic PnP stuff without having to hack the client to pieces to make a half-assed version of what they want. Basically, you should be able to make a nearly perfect remake of Baldur's Gate 1/2 if you want.

[Merusk]

I often wonder if fantasy gamers generally have a high tolerance for shit, so long as it's fantasy.

So long as I get my elf T&A I'm in happyland.

Well, not really, but it was just too good an opportunity to pass-up.  Generally, though, fantsy lets folks fill-in the gaps in their head, probably without even realizing it.  Storylines that have blatant plot holes or just plain asinine shit can go over great in Fantasy, but be completly asstastic if it were Sci-Fi or another genere. (Weiss & Hickman's stuff, for example.)  I can't imagine the same isn't true of games.

[Megrim]

Actually, I know nothing about NWN 2. I won't be premature with my hate there.

I'm just talking about NWN 1. Or Morrowind. It seems like many fans of the genre actually hate these games themselves, but for some reason, they still feel compelled to play and talk about them. Kind of like Robert Jordan books. I don't understand it.

Stray I know exactly what you mean! Im sure all of us on this site (most being MMO fans) have seen the trend time and time again.

BTW you are right about the Jordan books. They were shit and I never have understood why people kept buying and reading them.

I heard by book 5 he would spend an entire page describing a room where a trivial conversation was taking place. Five pages later someone new would walk into the room and he would copy and paste the entire description in again.

The problem with RJ's stuff is that in-between paleolithic layers of crap, there are the occasional jade veins that are few and far between, but oh so good. Past book 3 he pretty much just goes off the rails 

But yea, here's to hoping that NWN2 turns out somewhat decent. Maybe they'll add actual curved terrain.

[Stormwaltz]

In my (brief) experimentation with the client on the E3 show floor that was in fact what it appeared to be.

Much improved toolset, though. Mapmaking is quicker and more flexible. Tiles are happily absent - everything's done using brushes. Reminded me a lot of the AC2 tool set (which was quite good). I was disturbed, however, to note that you have to manually flatten the terrain under any buildings you place.

[WayAbvPar]

I was disturbed, however, to note that you have to manually flatten the terrain under any buildings you place.

Heh. That reminds me of Populous.

NWN and all its sequels are non-starters for me until they make the combat turn-based. Tactical combat is the core of D&D, and running around clicking and pushing hotkeys just doesn't do it for me.

[stray]

I like turn based and all, but the D&D combat system was designed when there wasn't a good alternative to turn based. Plus the rules are so extensive to make me think that it was meant to approximate real time. If one can do the same things in real time nowadays though, then why not? That can require tactical thinking too, so long as it's done correctly.

That being said, NWN is worst thing Bioware has ever released, in my opinion. Real time or not.

[shiznitz]

I was disturbed, however, to note that you have to manually flatten the terrain under any buildings you place.

Heh. That reminds me of Populous.

NWN and all its sequels are non-starters for me until they make the combat turn-based. Tactical combat is the core of D&D, and running around clicking and pushing hotkeys just doesn't do it for me.

I agree. I loved ToEE's combat system. No reason that could not be put into an NWN-type game and an over-the-shoulder POV.

[Morat20]

Re: Robert Jordan. Why? Because goddammit, I will finish the damn thing even though it sucks more than anything I could have possibly imagined. That's why. It's fucking pride-based marketing.

As to NWN2: Eh, not holding out a lot of hope at this point.

[WayAbvPar]

Re: Robert Jordan. Why? Because goddammit, I will finish the damn thing even though it sucks more than anything I could have possibly imagined. That's why. It's fucking pride-based marketing.

He is gonna die before he finishes the last book to spite everyone.

[Rasix]

If the quality of the single player content is equivalent to the second and third expansion then it will be worth the purchase price for the single player alone, especially with the increased party size.

[Morat20]

Re: Robert Jordan. Why? Because goddammit, I will finish the damn thing even though it sucks more than anything I could have possibly imagined. That's why. It's fucking pride-based marketing.

He is gonna die before he finishes the last book to spite everyone.

Then I will make a hand-puppet out of his skull and DICTATE a better freakin' ending. Here, I'll do it now:

Robert Jordan Skull Pupper: And Rand like totally kicked Satan's ass, but the world blew up in the process and all the magic's gone, so it's like the Dark Ages again and it's all science and shit cause it's really our world! I'm so FUCKING CLEVER! It's a wheel, bitch! I had you going! HAHAHAHAHA! I SLEEP ON A BED OF 100 DOLLAR BILLS! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

See how easy that was? Robert Jordan lives in all of us.

[Xilren's Twin]

I like turn based and all, but the D&D combat system was designed when there wasn't a good alternative to turn based. Plus the rules are so extensive to make me think that it was meant to approximate real time. If one can do the same things in real time nowadays though, then why not? That can require tactical thinking too, so long as it's done correctly.

That being said, NWN is worst thing Bioware has ever released, in my opinion. Real time or not.

You're nuts.  Look NWN may not have been the greatest game evah! but it was certainly worth the price of admission and was a huge step into the middle ground between single player/multiplayer games and MMOs.

The major problem with it was the real time nature of the game which basically ran counter to the turn based root of D&D which made it simply feel "wrong" when you played, and the restrictive nature of the toolset to the core D&D rules (can't change core rules, adding true custom mobs/items/spells, meant to be like lego's but came out more like duplo blocks).

But even with those limitations, name one other game which has even a fraction of the player made content that NWN has given rise to.  There are over 4400 modules out there even now, plus tons of scripts, models, artwork, cutscenes and program extenders.  It has been used for single player games, multi-player, DM'ed games, and a variety of persistant worlds.  People have made action games, pvp games, heavy story based games, hack and slash fests, sneak fests and even humorous games.   It game people full control over their own games in terms of allowable characters, items, levels, password restricted server, public server.  Most importantly, it got a tons of people who would have never even considered dabbling with the toolset of something like morrowind, TRYING to make their own content.  Plus, the engine led to Kotor1 & 2 :)  Not only all that, but BW didn't charge any sort of monthly fee and kept supporting and enhancing the product even to this day.

Sure people knocked the campaign that shipped with it, but that really wasn't the point of NWN at all; it was supposed to server as an introduction as to what could be done with the toolset.  The later expansions provided some really good included campaigns, and the premium module are apparently pretty good as well.
(side note, this month they are going to release a new one called Infinte Dungeons which will randomly create new, class specific dungeons each time you begin it and can be played solo, multiplayer cooperative or multiplayer competitive.  Sounds intriguing)

Seriously, you would think us jaded gamer types would give NWN more love.  Eveyone focus on how it let them down in one way or another without ever giving it credit for what it was able to pull off.  I consider it almost a landmark product and would hope to see more efforts into this same middle ground that right now, only NWN occupies.

You high expectation, jaded mofos.

Xilren
PS  Now, NWN2 just sounds like enhanced NWN1, which isn't exactly what most people were looking for as the next step forward.  I more interested in seeing what Bioware does with  Dragon Age or their own MMO.

[El Gallo]

(can't change core rules, adding true custom mobs/items/spells, meant to be like lego's but came out more like duplo blocks).

That's the best analogy I've ever seen.

Anyway, even if NWN is a less buggy, better looking NWN1, it'll be worth buying several times over to me. 

[Sky]

That's why I thought it sucked. Maybe now that people have had time to mod it it's better, but I remember sitting with the Worldbuilder's Guide and being incapable of making the module I had in mind because I can't build 3d models in Maya or whatever. Veery limiting and combined with being real-time, utterly killed the game for me. I have zero interest in nwn2.

To continue the (excellent) lego analogy, it's like wanting to build a spaceship and only having the pirate lego set. All your adventures will be pirates or some crappy compromise. And (originally, anyway) the only way to get new legos is build molds and pour your own plastic, or wait around years for them to release some new stuff.

I understand I 'miss the point' with NWN, though. :) But by the time there were enough models to begin thinking about building my original custom module, I was not interested at all in NWN (and I didn't like the way gameplay was implemented...).

The lesson I learned was simple: look into NWN2 in 2008. Seriously.

[HaemishM]

The scripting is what killed NWN for me (and the bugs in the Construction set that took months and eventually an expansion to fix). Making NPC's that were anything more than quest boxes or bags of hitpoints to bash took more progamming/scripting chops than I had time to develop.

Not to mention that the real-time nature totally killed the D&D paradigm.

[Lantyssa]

But even with those limitations, name one other game which has even a fraction of the player made content that NWN has given rise to.

Just to be difficult: Morrowind and Oblivion.

[Sky]

Quake, Unreal. Etc. Not like NWN invented modding or something, including professional modding (Half-Life for instance).

[Ironwood]

(side note, this month they are going to release a new one called Infinte Dungeons which will randomly create new, class specific dungeons each time you begin it and can be played solo, multiplayer cooperative or multiplayer competitive.  Sounds intriguing)

That looks the biz.  I may have to reinstall.

Edited :  Cool !

[Xilren's Twin]

But even with those limitations, name one other game which has even a fraction of the player made content that NWN has given rise to.

Just to be difficult: Morrowind and Oblivion.

Be to snarky back...

Hows that multiplayer Morrowind and Oblivion coming? :-p

Xilren

[Lantyssa]

Just fine as I don't have to deal with people from the internet.

[WayAbvPar]

Just fine as I don't have to deal with people from the internet.

I don't know...I might choose to deal with a game full of VN board retards then ever see another goddamned cliff racer  :-D

[Sky]

You can't mod out stupid.