"eclipse" sample detection

[heck]

Wondering if some of you might know about this "eclipse" system that can be used to detect samples in music.

One of my music projects got picked up for distribution on a small indie label.  The cds were going to be manufactured by a place affiliated with Sony.  Had I known this when I made the record, I would not have used big samples...but at the time of recording it was for fun and I didn't think it would end up being a problem even for a short run of cd's (1000). 

So the label got an email back from the cd place, part of it as follows:

DESCRIPTION OF PROBLEMS DETECTED ON OUR ECLIPSE SYSTEM:
 

Tracks 2, 6, 11 and 12 sample music from other artists.


Track 2: sampled material

Track 6: Jurassic Park Theme

Track 11: MC Hammer

Track 12: sampled material


Please submit track list, content approval form and any other material showing you have the rights to use the music provided on this CD.

Fair enough.  The funny thing is, they didn't find the REALLY HUGE samples.  Track 11, for example, has MC hammer saying "you can't touch this" as a joke, because the song features a Hammeresque loop of "Drive" by the Cars.  They didn't find Drive, they found Hammer. 

Anyway I'm going to redo the songs, and it's no huge deal.  Just thought it was funny...there are other songs on the cd with samples that the system couldn't find.

[Samwise]

Are the rights to "Drive" owned by Sony?  If not, they probably don't care.   

[Righ]

Eclipse is one of the best known CD mastering systems. It's anybody's guess what Sony have plugged into it, but its probably most likely that they just heard the damned samples while they were doing the premastering checks.

http://www.eclipsedata.com/

[heck]

Are the rights to "Drive" owned by Sony?  If not, they probably don't care.   

The Cars were on Elektra; I'm inclined to say that Elektra isn't affiliated with Sony but these days that's a tough call!

Righ's probably right about them spotting the samples by ear.  No effort was made to hide them.  But one of the other samples they caught was from the movie Whale Rider...which got Sony distro...who knows lol.

[Righ]

Elektra was subsumed by Atlantic, part of Warner Music. Warner sold its music interests to private investors. So, no longer part of a multi-media giant, I guess you call them an indie label.

Apparently MC Hammer was Capitol, so that's EMI, not Sony. The soundtrack was apparently MCA, so that's part of Universal Music, in turn part of Vivendi-Universal. Looks like the Sony part is a red herring, and the mastering company is just randomly covering its ass where it notices stuff.

[raydeen]

I remember years ago when sampling really started to take off that there was a ruling (or talk thereof) of anything under 3 seconds being fair game. Is that still the case?

[Sky]

Hey, try making your own music. Just a thought.

[Signe]

Hey, I've heard some extremely clever music using sampling!  Just another thought.   

[Moaner]

Hey, I've heard some extremely clever music using sampling!  Just another thought.   

Right on!

Check out Akufen if you haven't already.  Pretty amazing stuff.  As far as I know all of their stuff is created using samples and a couple Akai samplers.  Another great example  is the Grey Album.  DM ftw!

I'm a midi junky and use samples all the time when I play live, but I haven't the slightest idea how legal it actually is.  The 3 second rule is interesting if it's true.  Do copyright laws apply to instruments as well as spoken stuff?  For instance, I sample B Boy drum hits all the time. 

Congrats on getting mastered!  It's an exciting experience for sure :)

[Broughden]

I dont know crap about the music industry so this might be a dumb question...

Couldnt you just have someone else record the MC Hammer line who sounds like him? Then mix it into your song?
You get the same effect without actually having taken from protected material?
I mean its not like the line "You cant touch this" is trademarked or copywrited is it?

[Righ]

Were you born in a simpler time and in a coma for forty years?

[Broughden]

Were you born in a simpler time and in a coma for forty years?

I dont know crap about the music industry so this might be a dumb question...

Doesnt the legal problem stem from the sample being MC Hammer's actual voice, which is protected?

So if they had someone else sing the line "cant touch this" would it still be protected?

[schild]

If they had other people remake the samples completely and re-record the voice, they could call it parody, weird Al style.

Edit: And Heck, where can we get your CDs?

[Margalis]

I think it's pretty cool that the technology can detect samples over all the other background stuff. Makes me wonder how it works exactly.

[Trippy]

I dont know crap about the music industry so this might be a dumb question...

Couldnt you just have someone else record the MC Hammer line who sounds like him? Then mix it into your song?
You get the same effect without actually having taken from protected material?

That would be considered a derivative work and be protected by the original copyright.

[Broughden]

I dont know crap about the music industry so this might be a dumb question...

Couldnt you just have someone else record the MC Hammer line who sounds like him? Then mix it into your song?
You get the same effect without actually having taken from protected material?

That would be considered a derivative work and be protected by the original copyright.

How much has to be included though to be considered a derivative work? Is that where the 3 sec rule people mentioned comes into play?

[Righ]

There is no three second rule, and you cannot simple recreate somebody elses' musical theme and call it your own or publish it without license.

Here's a layman's precis of the situation as it currently stands:

http://publishing.wsu.edu/copyright/music_copyright/

[Broughden]

There is no three second rule, and you cannot simple recreate somebody elses' musical theme and call it your own or publish it without license.

Yeah but what Im trying to figure out or ask is how much "content" constitutes a copy right violation?
For example, if the specific words "cant touch this" arent trade marked what is to stop the OP from having a vocalist sing those exact three words and then put them into his song? Does the fact that MCHammer used those three words in that order preclude any other musical artist from ever using them again?

Or from a music perspective...the old Nirvana song "Come As You Are" the chorus is an alternation of the chords C and A-minor. Does this stop some one else from using the same alteration?

ie when does it go from similar to copying? there must be some sort of rule or standard isnt there?

Like I admitted above I know nothing about the music business and am only asking out of curiousity's sake.

[Righ]

Its up to a lawyer to make a case and convince a jury. If you use similar phrasing, scale and/or tone while singing "can't touch this" it will not matter that the pitch is transposed, the singer a caucasian woman or the tempo altered. If the listener hears enough similarity (which presumably would be the intent of your reconstruction) then the case is usually easy to make. That being so you'll probably be advised by counsel to remove the offending work or pay the fee demanded rather than go to court.

If you sing "I can't touch this stove because its too hot" in a manner totally disimilar to MC Hammer, such that test subjects fail to make the connection its probably worth your while fighting a legal challenge.

I think this is how court stuff works in the US, perhaps somebody could advise. ;)

[Yegolev]

Yeah, I understand what everyone is saying, but can someone explain:

[Trippy]

They threatened to sue and rumor has it they settled out of court.

[heck]

Hey, try making your own music. Just a thought.

I thought about putting up the original track and the remix, to show a song with no samples v. a song with samples.  It would give some context.  But then, context would help you know what you are talking about, and from your posts in these forums I know you have no use for that. 

[Strazos]

Duuude, Sky was in a Baaand.

He's like, the authority on everything related to music.

[Sky]

Wow. Fuck you, too, buddy.

[El Gallo]

I thought about putting up the original track and the remix, to show a song with no samples v. a song with samples.  It would give some context.  But then, context would help you know what you are talking about, and from your posts in these forums I know you have no use for that. 

If you want to have a song with various catchy hooks or whatever throughout, why can't you just right your own catchy hooks or whatever and sprinkle them through your song?

[raydeen]

Here's an interesting (and fairly lengthy) video all about the 'Amen Break', one of the most used drum breaks in music in the past 20 years. You'll probably have to be a complete sample/electronic music nut like me to sit thought it, but it's interesting. It goes into the styles and usage of this break and also the legal ramifications (or lack thereof).

http://videosift.com/story.php?id=3373

[schild]

Only watched it til I heard the beat. First song that came to mind was Firestarter. Would make an interesting thread if people found all the songs that was used in.

[Righ]

Everything by Apollo 440 ever? Predate's that chaps examples too. But I should be able to go earlier than that too. Let me think...

...nope. I have hundreds of examples, but they all start at 1986, which tends to implicate Louis Flores' sample collection.

[raydeen]

The first time I heard it (that I know of) was Ice T's 'Hunted Child' that was on one of the 'Just Say' compilations.'Just Say Mao' if I recall. 'Just Say Yo' had two of my favorite samplefests: Ofra Haza's 'Galbi' remixed and Martini Ranch's 'Hot Dog' (which had a ton of cool cartoon samples along with one of the singers from the B-52s). Amazon linki below. Very good purchace.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000002LET/qid=1150076700/sr=11-1/ref=sr_11_1/102-0280153-1270529?n=5174