Raiding Poll

[Jayce]

Former guild has Nef on farm status and is into AQ40. Gave up playing WoW after we got MC to farm status and started into BWL because 40 man raids just aren't fun, the game is so unbalanced that non-raiding game play at 60 is worthless and there's no new non-raid content to make alts interesting.

Jewelcrafting, Outland and the new raid content are all going to sink more WoW accounts as the disparity between hardcore raiders and the rest of the server population is magnified. However, Blizzard shouldn't care until somebody makes a better MMO, and that doesn't look like it'll happen any time soon.

Tigole is spreading utter lies to promote his self-worth, unless there's more user churn of non-raiders than I thought likely.

Sorry, but this sounds to me like sour grapes.  You found you don't like the high-end game, cool.  But to say 40 man raids aren't fun is obviously your opinion, and the game being unbalanced is blatantly false.

Case in point:  I am fairly epic'd out and have a legendary 2h weapon.  The other day in EPL, a warlock attacked me.  Now I'm not the worst PvPer in the world but I am also fairly decent.  I don't think this guy who attacked me had great gear.

I failed to get him below 3/4 health not once, not twice, but three times before I finally gave up and admitted that I was owned.

So I conclude, skill > gear. 

My point is, if you don't like the game at high levels, got burnt out, or whatever, fine.  No need to make excuses about that.  But your reasons as stated as much utter lies as the ones that you accuse Tigole of.

[Ironwood]

Um.  That's not a very convincing argument either Jayce.

Really.

[Eldron]

still at 1

We killed rag 1½ month ago. took some time before starting bwl and is stuck at vael now. We will get him down soon :)

[Zetor]

Er, a level 54 warlock in greens can kill a level 60 warrior in full BWL gear with legendaries, as long as the warrior isn't undead.

Have you seen the new weapons out of Naxx btw? One-handers that do more damage than BWL 2-handers. The fun never stops! :P


-- Z.

[Xanthippe]

As Blizzard puts more content into the uber guild raid end game stuff, I fear they will lose the more casual non-raiding player.  More content aimed at the casual player would be a smart move.

WoW starts to look like DAOC's ToA, when you must MC > BWL > AQ40 > whatever comes next and so on and so on.

I think Righ is right.  People will stay until there's another option.

Is the population still climbing or has it peaked?

[AcidCat]

I don't raid because I both don't have the time, and don't really enjoy the process. My most recent endgame character was in Panda Attack on Dark Iron, so I definitely had the opportunity, but the only raid I ever attended was one UBRS run and one Strath run. That's it.

- Too time consuming. With a wife and two kids I just can't be trapped at my PC for hours at a time. Nor do I want to be chained to my PC for that long, I just get fidgety, I love being able to stop playing when *I* want to. This is why I love 5 man stuff like Scarlet Monastery and Dire Maul - broken into sections so I can manage my time better.

- Don't care for the process. The UBRS and Strath runs were fairly enjoyable, even though I was stuck for longer than I wanted. But beyond that, I know the higher end stuff just gets more regimented. There's no doubt it becomes work, not play. Stand here, do this, then go there, do this. Just follow the routine. And do it again and again to get your loot. And listen to annoying TeamSpeak, which I hate. I'd rather grind PvP, at least I can play at my pace and it's still somewhat unpredictable.

Eh, anyway, at that point I usually start a different character and go do something else, find another guild, another server. I still enjoy the basic 1-59 game quite a bit.

[OcellotJenkins]

I'm at 1 and have been there for several months.

I do have a great guild that I guess you would classify as a "casual raiding" guild.  We have a very picky recruitment policy to avoid douch-tard loot drama whinos but the downside to this is that it's often difficult to maintain the numbers required to continually progress in the endgame.  We've been stuck on Vael for a couple of months now and regularly struggle to get 35+ people online at the same time.

Raiding with 20 or 40 people once, maybe twice a week is fun.  More than that and I get burned out.  Part of the problem too, at least from my perspective, is the amount of resistance gear required to move to the next big raiding dungeon.  After doing MC for 8 months or so, it seems we have only recently reached the fire resistance levels needed to have a shot in BWL.  And then what?  Frost resistance for this Naxx thing?  Nature resistance for AQ?  I don't believe I'd get so burned if I didn't have to keep doing the same freaking instances over and over and over again in order to progress to the next tier.

My answer to the casual/raider debate is this;  Offer two paths to obtaining class set gear.  One path would be 20/40 man raid boss drops like now.  The other would be a longer series of solo/duo/5 man quests for people that don't prefer raiding.  This just doesn't seem like too difficult of a problem to solve.  We'll see what happens with the expansion, but if the end game situation doesn't improve in terms of the above as well as pvp I'm going to have to move on.  It's a shame too because much of the game is very well done in my opinion, relative to any game prior to it.

 

[Jayce]

My answer to the casual/raider debate is this;  Offer two paths to obtaining class set gear.  One path would be 20/40 man raid boss drops like now.  The other would be a longer series of solo/duo/5 man quests for people that don't prefer raiding.  This just doesn't seem like too difficult of a problem to solve.  We'll see what happens with the expansion, but if the end game situation doesn't improve in terms of the above as well as pvp I'm going to have to move on.  It's a shame too because much of the game is very well done in my opinion, relative to any game prior to it.
 

/agreed, but they do seem to be leaning that direction with the tier 0 set stuff.  With that success hopefully they would think to apply it to the resistances problem.

But on the other hand, the big disconnect, as Lum semi-famously pointed out on his blog a while back, is that the stuff at lvl 60 is different than the stuff at lvl 1-59.  Some people like both stuff, some people like only one or the other. 

[Ironwood]

The point is that it's not hard to bridge that disconnect.


Instead of trying, however, they just push the same tired shit out and tell us that we like it.

I STILL can't see the logic in gearing your content to 25% of your user base, even assuming that figure is not totally pulled out of the Colon.

[Calantus]

Level 60 5-man instances pre-expansion: 4 (strath/scholo/DM/LBRS)
Level 60 10-man instances pre-expansion: 1 (UBRS)
Level 60 20-man instances pre-expansion: 2 (ZG/AQ20)
Level 60 40-man instances pre-expansion: 4 (MC/BWL/AQ40/Nax)

Now that's without counting onyxia, but also only counting Dire Maul and Stratholm as one instance and not counting BRD at all. Seems to me like it's pretty balanced, the game simply shipped with a casual imbalance and Blizz are slowly playing catchup with the raiding game.

[Threash]

Trying to get your class gear from raiding is already a several month long process for each tier, trying to scale it for 5 man raiding and quest it would make it take too long or require incredible amounts of grinding.  What would be the point anyways? so casuals have a better chance in pvp?.  What people don't seem to understand is that the reason guilds gear up their members is to take on the next pve challenge, pvp inbalance is just a really bad side effect.  You'd be a lot better off focusing that effort into balancing pvp (maybe have gear have different stats when used on mobs than on people? maybe make people go into bgs with a default set of gear that they can upgrade through ranking or consecutive wins?).  The point is if you aren't raiding the only reason you need better gear is to keep up pvp wise and every single raid zone is based around providing the tools necesary for beating whatever raid zone will come next.  

[tkinnun0]

This question came up when I was still playing and my answer (to "why do you want to raid when you don't enjoy raiding or pvp") was "to be able to solo better when the expansion comes". Which is of course wrong on so many levels, but an answer nonetheless.

[Tale]

Level 60 20-man instances pre-expansion: 2 (ZG/AQ20)
Level 60 40-man instances pre-expansion: 4 (MC/BWL/AQ40/Nax)

I think EQ1 at the equivalent stage (18 months after release) had Vox, Naggy, PoF, PoH, Sky, Venril, Trak, VP and various outdoor dragons. Two months later, Velious greatly expanded raid content. It always feels like WoW is expanding much slower, but if they get the expansion out sooner than Q4, they're keeping roughly the same pace (plus they have things like BGs that EQ didn't have).

[angry.bob]

So I conclude, skill > gear. 

You'd be wrong. WoW PvP is about levels first, gear a very close second, with the classes/rock-paper-scisors involved being a distant third. unless one of the combatants is complete basket case and does nothing but panic, skill does not even enter into WoW pvp. A level 60 in epic gear would own the most "skilled" level 55, non-epic WoW player on the earth by doing nothing but auto-attacking and occasionally hitting their n00b special attack.

PvP in wow is the most poorly thought out, tacked on afterthought that they could have come up with. It's been said a bunch of times about a bunch of other games, but if WAR does even as a job with PvP/RvR as was done with the current version of non-TOA DAoC, the WoW pvp scene will be gutted of any players of consequence or skill. Collisions detection and circle strafing are love. If they include mounted combat and make sure that having the best item available in every slot won't make more than a 10% difference in effectiveness, it will be the perfect PvP game.

[Jayce]

So I conclude, skill > gear. 

You'd be wrong. WoW PvP is about levels first, gear a very close second, with the classes/rock-paper-scisors involved being a distant third. unless one of the combatants is complete basket case and does nothing but panic, skill does not even enter into WoW pvp. A level 60 in epic gear would own the most "skilled" level 55, non-epic WoW player on the earth by doing nothing but auto-attacking and occasionally hitting their n00b special attack.

Anecdotal evidence, from personal experience, this board (see http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=6135.0), and conversations with other player says you're wrong.  However, I know it's out of character for you to admit that any released game is anything but completely idiotic and moronic devs who have implemented anything but entirely broken systems, so I guess we will just have to disagree.

[Threash]

So I conclude, skill > gear. 

You'd be wrong. WoW PvP is about levels first, gear a very close second, with the classes/rock-paper-scisors involved being a distant third. unless one of the combatants is complete basket case and does nothing but panic, skill does not even enter into WoW pvp. A level 60 in epic gear would own the most "skilled" level 55, non-epic WoW player on the earth by doing nothing but auto-attacking and occasionally hitting their n00b special attack.

PvP in wow is the most poorly thought out, tacked on afterthought that they could have come up with. It's been said a bunch of times about a bunch of other games, but if WAR does even as a job with PvP/RvR as was done with the current version of non-TOA DAoC, the WoW pvp scene will be gutted of any players of consequence or skill. Collisions detection and circle strafing are love. If they include mounted combat and make sure that having the best item available in every slot won't make more than a 10% difference in effectiveness, it will be the perfect PvP game.

If you are talking about 1v1 pvp then yes gear and level are everything, in group pvp skill and tactics will trump gear everytime.

[Zane0]

2- guild is working on C'thun. 

The problem with the entire debate is that we don't know the proportions of any side.  I imagine there'd be a considerable subscription drop-off by now if the vocal non-raiders were speaking to a truly serious problem.  Not that raiding is something that everyone does- it just seems that the true majority of players haven't hit the content wall yet.  Either that, or Blizzard has made a game so intuitive, polished, and accessible that there are no other options for these people..

Anyways, yeah, I've been in heavy BWL geared groups that get whooped by dedicated PvP teams in little else but blues on occasion.  It's all about communication, teamwork, and group composition; Blizz never claimed to have balanced classes for 1v1.

[Morfiend]

My guild was working on Nefarian, but due to low attendance we recently merged with another guild. Now we are working on C'thun. On my server there are 3 horde guilds and 6 Alliance guilds who have killed Nef, and one Alliance guild who killed C'thun.

[Shavnir]

My guild's been attempting Nefarion for a few weeks now.

I'd say we're on track to beat him soon enough.

Another vote for "Rag down, Nef keeps ahead of us with early hydralisk production which overwhelm our defenses".

[Morfiend]

BTW just wanted to add, our new "super guild" after the merge got to rag in 2h 30m and killed him with 10 seconds to go before sons. We sharded 2 of the 3 drops, but never the less it was actually a fun run, with an exciting finish.

[Threash]

BTW just wanted to add, our new "super guild" after the merge got to rag in 2h 30m and killed him with 10 seconds to go before sons. We sharded 2 of the 3 drops, but never the less it was actually a fun run, with an exciting finish.

We are going the opposite way on our rag kills, on our last clear he died after 3 waves of sons with only 6 people left up :P

[Shavnir]

BTW just wanted to add, our new "super guild" after the merge got to rag in 2h 30m and killed him with 10 seconds to go before sons. We sharded 2 of the 3 drops, but never the less it was actually a fun run, with an exciting finish.

Jeez we're pushing it to get down to 3h.  But then again the damage races are fun.  Do you do special things to loot quickly?

[Rasix]

BTW just wanted to add, our new "super guild" after the merge got to rag in 2h 30m and killed him with 10 seconds to go before sons. We sharded 2 of the 3 drops, but never the less it was actually a fun run, with an exciting finish.

We are going the opposite way on our rag kills, on our last clear he died after 3 waves of sons with only 6 people left up :P

Heh, same shit started happening to my guild before I quit WoW (we changed servers, was a nice time to leave the game).  Actually, I think we'd just call for the wipe after the second wave since a lot of players stopped bringing FR gear to MC and just chewed through our available healing power.  Also, we started letting alts come on everything up to Rags.  Sub 3 hour runs turned into 4+.

Lemme guess, you're also:

A) Doing Baron kills where the an officer actually has to yell out over vent, "OK, enough blowing each other up."
B) Wiping on BWL bosses when your usual main tank is letting someone else handle it.
C) Wiping on Vael multiple times.
D) Wiping on Huhu multiple times at 1%.
E) Nef and Chromag wipes on combos you should be able to handle.

Of course, you could just have the Rag problems, but when I started noticing us having problems with Rag, I started noticing how poorly we were doing with other farm status material. I still have forum access to the guild site and they're STILL having the same issues.  I guess moving servers isn't a panacea.

There was a guild merger on my old server similar to what Morph mentioned.  Two guilds with attendence (and attitude) issues merged, cut the fat (more like backstabbed the non-hardcore), and then proceeded to steam roll content they were having problems with previously.  Morph, do people in guild chat now say stuff like, "It's hard to be humble when you're this fucking good!" Mad props if not.. the merged guild on our server got a very large head post merger/success.

I'd still be a 2 on this poll if single.  Married and sooner or later with kids?  Just not possible.  If the wife was into this shit, possibly.

[Paelos]

I think pvp would be better off if there was a base set of armor you could buy, and that's all you could use in the battlegrounds. Then, by gaining ranks you could upgrade that armor with socketed items or something. You could have choices of which items to put in which socket for customization. Think the necklaces from ZG and how you upgrade them with each rep gain level except with more options. Something like that.

[Rasix]

I think pvp would be better off if there was a base set of armor you could buy, and that's all you could use in the battlegrounds. Then, by gaining ranks you could upgrade that armor with socketed items or something. You could have choices of which items to put in which socket for customization. Think the necklaces from ZG and how you upgrade them with each rep gain level except with more options. Something like that.

I think either Threash or Phred mentioned something similar in another thread.  I think this would be ideal.  You'd need to throw weapons into the mix here too (I assume you'd be in favor of that) or have a viable PVP only alternative that's not too hard to obtain. I'd hope they could find a system that's a little less assy than rep and less grindy than the current honor system (they've mentioned it's more time intensive than they'd like), perhaps some sort of battle point or battle currency purchase system. 

[Margalis]

The fact that you have to grind up enough resistance gear to move on to the next instance is just silly. It really makes the whole treadmill completely obvious and transparent. They might as well just make it so you can't enter dungeon B without going through dungeon A 50 times first.

About battlegrounds - just level cap them at a certain level where there isn't that much super-gear or just outlaw all super gear. It would take 10 seconds to program.

[Shavnir]

The fact that you have to grind up enough resistance gear to move on to the next instance is just silly. It really makes the whole treadmill completely obvious and transparent. They might as well just make it so you can't enter dungeon B without going through dungeon A 50 times first.

The thing is, the resistance fights allow them to "cap" how good the armor from each dungeon is.  We can assume they intend for linear progression, that is armor from MC should be good enough for BWL, BWL good enough for AQ40 etc etc.  If they didn't have heavy resistance fights in there then the amount of scaling they'd have to do to make a fight in AQ40 difficult for BWL people would be intense.  Essentially we'd see much larger gaps in armor quality between leaps if it wasn't for the presence of fights that "gimp" you to have that certain resistance.

Additionally people wonder why AQ40 drops NR epics and BWL / MC drop FR epics...the idea there is that those items help you specifically do that dungeon.  It might be a bit silly but in the end I think the presence of resist gear and its use in raid enviroments helps the PvP balance not spin even more out of control than it already is.

[Calantus]

Also, it may just be me and my loot whore ways, but I like collecting extra bits of gear for specific purposes like resists. Only problem I have with it is all the space it takes up in my bags and bank.

[Shavnir]

I think I'd have to buy the last two bag slots on my warrior if I wanted to actually go and farm anything :(

[Liquidator]

Though my account is not active as I'm taking a break from the game, my guild has killed both Ragnaros and Nefarian and is currently working on AQ40.

So, 1 & 2.

[Phred]

I think pvp would be better off if there was a base set of armor you could buy, and that's all you could use in the battlegrounds. Then, by gaining ranks you could upgrade that armor with socketed items or something. You could have choices of which items to put in which socket for customization. Think the necklaces from ZG and how you upgrade them with each rep gain level except with more options. Something like that.

I think either Threash or Phred mentioned something similar in another thread.  I think this would be ideal.  You'd need to throw weapons into the mix here too (I assume you'd be in favor of that) or have a viable PVP only alternative that's not too hard to obtain. I'd hope they could find a system that's a little less assy than rep and less grindy than the current honor system (they've mentioned it's more time intensive than they'd like), perhaps some sort of battle point or battle currency purchase system.

Unfortunately someone on the Blizzard boards shot the idea through with a few holes. That was, build tailored gear. To expect Blizz to have decent druid armor for feral, balance and resto builds, shaman armor for their builds, etc, might make this a little more complicated than it appears at first. Unless they could come up with a generalized set and as someone just mentioned, toss in the new socket code to let people customise it more to their liking. Have gems on vendors buyable as you hit higher ranks. The main appeal for me of this system is it get's pvp players in their own little world and hopefully stops the whines for nerfage of the PVE gear I need to take on tougher instances. Especially as a hunter I'm really tired of seeing a 3 dps upgrade in my next teir weapons because of the constant whining about hunters.

[Jayce]

stops the whines

It'll never happen.

[Ironwood]

The design as it stands IS horribly broken tho.  The PvE impacts far too much on the PvP and the PvP is, well, a completely trivial timesink for Christ knows what purpose.

[Morfiend]

Jeez we're pushing it to get down to 3h.  But then again the damage races are fun.  Do you do special things to loot quickly?

As soon as a boss is dead, every one except the two officers doing loot starts imediatly on the next pull. When loot is called for a person he runs back and picks it up. Also, loot goes very fast in MC for the new guild cause we shard like 3/4ths of the drops.

Morph, do people in guild chat now say stuff like, "It's hard to be humble when you're this fucking good!" Mad props if not.. the merged guild on our server got a very large head post merger/success.

Not yet they dont. There was a bit of drama on one side of the merge and a few people quit (to be expected) but they where ferther along in content. Working on C'thun, while my guild was working on Nef. So we are getting a little bit of the newbie treatment, but its already mellowing out alot. On our second night of C'thun attempts we got him to 82% phase 2, which was a guild record. So that helped with them thinking we where noobs.

[Phred]

stops the whines

It'll never happen.

Please. Let me dream.