Lineage 2 hits 14 Million subscribers

[Der Helm]

Hey, folks.   I just want to jump in and clarify a few things.  If anyone is wondering, the numbers that we are reporting are indeed accurate.  Lineage II has reached more than 14 million customers worldwide in our two-year run.  Active Lineage II territories include Korea, Europe, the United States, Thailand, Taiwan and Japan.  Is there some confusion between Blizzard reporting a customer base of 6 million for WoW versus NCsoft reporting a customer base of 14 million for Lineage II?  NCsoft's active subscribers, of course, are reported publicly on a quarterly basis.

I am sorry, but did you say anything at all ? Because I did not get it. At all.

Honestly

[Arthur_Parker]

14 million people have played Lineage 2 at some point in time, that's not our subscriber numbers though, we publish those quarterly.

That's what I got out of it.  I'd still play L2 if it was a lot less grindy.

[Venkman]

Is there some confusion between Blizzard reporting a customer base of 6 million for WoW versus NCsoft reporting a customer base of 14 million for Lineage II?

Welcome Tisirin, and thanks for being willing to answer some questions in this crowd :)

Even with WoW, "active accounts" means different things per country/region. For L2, you state "14mil customers". What does that mean? You sold 14mil boxes? 14mil new accounts were created? 14mil people registered for the forums? Did people spend the equivalent of $50 to buy a box and play for a month? How many of them are in the U.S. vs China vs Korea vs other? Some of this stuff obviously you can't talk about, but it's the sort of things I wonder about.

It's a worldwide genre at a time of regional relevance. To me, a single worldwide value doesn't tell almost any story, whether L2 or WoW or GW. It doesn't account for local conditions like different cultures, your PC Baangs vs the largely-home-base users in the U.S., different financial relationships between customer and company and so on. Even WoW's 6.5mil is less relevant than the probably-near-2mil of the U.S. That latter number is what affects most the U.S.-based/specific MMOGs like DAoC or EQ.

This sort of comparison in the U.S. is probably as relevant as it would be in Korea. The parameters are just very different. So 14mil is good, but understanding how that number breaks down by region allows for more relevant comparions.

[HRose]

Come on, it's obvious. The 14M are accounts created, not also active. While WoW's 6M are accounts active, till the last week.

NCSoft releases the numbers we care about, they are the only company to do this. And I linked to these in the previous page.

[Venkman]

NCSoft releases the numbers we care about,

"We"? What do I care how many accounts were ever created? By myself I probably created 14mil accounts. That's irrelevant. What matters to me is how many accounts were based on an initial financial transaction, and resulted in some form of relationship that involved money thereafter. Aside from GW, which still required that up front transaction, most games either have a fee or make it up in some form of ingame advertising or RMTing.

[Tisirin]

Come on, it's obvious. The 14M are accounts created, not also active. While WoW's 6M are accounts active, till the last week.

NCSoft releases the numbers we care about, they are the only company to do this. And I linked to these in the previous page.

I think the comparison we're talking about here is apples to apples.   But I don't want to be seen as bagging on Blizzard at all.  It's an incredible game and a runaway hit, no one can deny that.  They've done a ton to energize the whole MMO space.

But in this particular context, I think we're talking about comparing the same numbers, unless I'm mistaken.

[Modified because I think I wasn't very clear the first time out -- Tisirin]

[Rasix]

But in this particular context, I think we're talking about apples to apples, unless I'm mistaken.

I hate to get all White House press corp here, but you're saying that Lineage 2 has 14 million currently active subscriptions?

[Threash]

Come on, it's obvious. The 14M are accounts created, not also active. While WoW's 6M are accounts active, till the last week.

NCSoft releases the numbers we care about, they are the only company to do this. And I linked to these in the previous page.

I think the comparison we're talking about here is apples to apples.   But I don't want to be seen as bagging on Blizzard at all.  It's an incredible game and a runaway hit, no one can deny that.  They've done a ton to energize the whole MMO space.

But in this particular context, I think we're talking about comparing the same numbers, unless I'm mistaken.

[Modified because I think I wasn't very clear the first time out -- Tisirin]

I think you might be.  Blizzards press release clearly state that number as their current subscribers,  from what i understood that 14 million number was the amount of people that have ever played.  Maybe im mistaken also and you have 14 million current subscribers?

[El Gallo]

Come on, it's obvious. The 14M are accounts created, not also active. While WoW's 6M are accounts active, till the last week.

NCSoft releases the numbers we care about, they are the only company to do this. And I linked to these in the previous page.

I think the comparison we're talking about here is apples to apples.   But I don't want to be seen as bagging on Blizzard at all.  It's an incredible game and a runaway hit, no one can deny that.  They've done a ton to energize the whole MMO space.

But in this particular context, I think we're talking about comparing the same numbers, unless I'm mistaken.

[Modified because I think I wasn't very clear the first time out -- Tisirin]

As I read their definition, Blizzard claims to have 6 million of this kind of apple:

1. individuals who have paid a subscription fee or purchased a prepaid card to play World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the installation box bundled with one free month access EXCLUDING all players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or canceled subscriptions, and expired pre-paid cards.
PLUS
2.  Internet Game Room players having accessed the game over the last seven days are also counted as customers EXCLUDING all players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or canceled subscriptions, and expired pre-paid cards.

I think the kind of apple you claim to have 12 million of doesn't include the clauses after "EXCLUDING" in either part 1 or part 2, or the "over the last seven days" limitation of part 2.  Around here, we call that kind of apple an "orange."

[schild]

Lum and I had an exchange on this topic:

[11:17] f13dotnet: jorb
[11:17] Scott Jennings: glormp
[11:17] f13dotnet: tanfazzle

[Tisirin]

Come on, it's obvious. The 14M are accounts created, not also active. While WoW's 6M are accounts active, till the last week.

NCSoft releases the numbers we care about, they are the only company to do this. And I linked to these in the previous page.

I think the comparison we're talking about here is apples to apples.   But I don't want to be seen as bagging on Blizzard at all.  It's an incredible game and a runaway hit, no one can deny that.  They've done a ton to energize the whole MMO space.

But in this particular context, I think we're talking about comparing the same numbers, unless I'm mistaken.

[Modified because I think I wasn't very clear the first time out -- Tisirin]

As I read their definition, Blizzard claims to have 6 million of this kind of apple:

1. individuals who have paid a subscription fee or purchased a prepaid card to play World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the installation box bundled with one free month access EXCLUDING all players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or canceled subscriptions, and expired pre-paid cards.
PLUS
2.  Internet Game Room players having accessed the game over the last seven days are also counted as customers EXCLUDING all players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or canceled subscriptions, and expired pre-paid cards.

I think the kind of apple you claim to have 12 million of doesn't include the clauses after "EXCLUDING" in either part 1 or part 2, or the "over the last seven days" limitation of part 2.  Around here, we call that kind of apple an "orange."

You could be right.  I don't know.  It's kind of confusing in an industry that has yet to develop real standards of reporting across the board.  I've always thought everyone should just use "active subscribers" and be done with it.  But with some companies not obliged to report, and some companies using different terminologies ( like customer base, then defining what a customer is but not a base http://www.blizzard.com/press/060228.shtml ) then it just gets to be open for all kinds of interpretations.  And I still don't really understand how LAN Centers are regularly accounted for outside of box sales by all MMO companies.

I really don't want to get too vociferous on the matter, as I don't want to be misconstrued as dogging on competitors or whatnot.  I find the discussion of industry standards in reporting interesting, though.




 

[Venkman]

I really don't want to get too vociferous on the matter, as I don't want to be misconstrued as dogging on competitors or whatnot. I find the discussion of industry standards in reporting interesting, though

A slippery slope of course, but your candor adds to the knowledgebase, so hopefully you can still navigate the discussion.

The real question is, if WoW has 6.5mil active accounts, does L2 have 14mil active accounts? If so, I can't see it as insulting to WoW to state that. It's a business fact. Is it particularly relevant? Depends on the stuff I mentioned above. What some players like, others don't, multiplied by millions. That sorta thing :)

[Tisirin]

I really don't want to get too vociferous on the matter, as I don't want to be misconstrued as dogging on competitors or whatnot. I find the discussion of industry standards in reporting interesting, though

A slippery slope of course, but your candor adds to the knowledgebase, so hopefully you can still navigate the discussion.

The real question is, if WoW has 6.5mil active accounts, does L2 have 14mil active accounts? If so, I can't see it as insulting to WoW to state that. It's a business fact. Is it particularly relevant? Depends on the stuff I mentioned above. What some players like, others don't, multiplied by millions. That sorta thing :)

That's a good point, but I think the overall question is "Is everyone reporting 'active subscribers'?".  It's a pretty standard terminology, but it's not used very much in official reports, unless it's obligated to be released as NCsoft's are.  I'm sure that everyone would keep that number private if they could, but some can and some can't.  In the press release that started this conversation "active subscribers" was not used.  In the press release I referred to by Blizzard, "active subscribers" was not used either.   

[Trippy]

Blizzard is very clear what they mean by "customer" as was quoted earlier and they explicitly *exclude* expired or cancelled subscriptions/game cards.

[Pococurante]

reached = monetized subs?

[HRose]

NCSoft releases the numbers we care about,

"We"? What do I care how many accounts were ever created? By myself I probably created 14mil accounts. That's irrelevant. What matters to me is how many accounts were based on an initial financial transaction, and resulted in some form of relationship that involved money thereafter. Aside from GW, which still required that up front transaction, most games either have a fee or make it up in some form of ingame advertising or RMTing.

No, you don't understand.

The numbers we care about are active subsciptions. And NCSoft releases them. I don't mean the 14M thing. I mean the other numbers to which I linked in my first post. So, if you go there, you see those numbers "we care about".

[Arthur_Parker]

http://english.yna.co.kr/Engnews/20060504/410100000020060504112107E9.html

Online game publisher NCsoft Q1 earnings plunge
SEOUL, May 4 (Yonhap) -- NCsoft Corp., South Korea's largest publisher of online games, said Thursday its first-quarter earnings dropped by almost half due to the absence of new products.

In the January-March period, net income reached 6.8 billion won (US$7.3 million), down 49 percent from a year earlier, the company said in a regulatory filing.

[tazelbain]

Stop being needlessly convontational, Hrose.

L2: 1.5m
WoW: 6m

I am sure the the ratio would be greater, if it just Norh America.

[stray]

huh?

[sinij]

But in this particular context, I think we're talking about apples to apples, unless I'm mistaken.

I hate to get all White House press corp here, but you're saying that Lineage 2 has 14 million currently active subscriptions?

You do realize that active NA subscription in not the same as Internet Cafee in Korea active subscription?

[WindupAtheist]

So by NCSoft standards, if I made the shittiest game in the world, but somehow got everyone on earth to try it, I could claim I had "reached six billion users" as I went out of business?

[Oban]

These are not the subscribers you're looking for.

/waveshand

[Rasix]

But in this particular context, I think we're talking about apples to apples, unless I'm mistaken.

I hate to get all White House press corp here, but you're saying that Lineage 2 has 14 million currently active subscriptions?

You do realize that active NA subscription in not the same as Internet Cafee in Korea active subscription?

Yes.  Your point?

[Lantyssa]

So by NCSoft standards, if I made the shittiest game in the world, but somehow got everyone on earth to try it, I could claim I had "reached six billion users" as I went out of business?

If you were making a dollar per sale, you would be doing just fine.

[WindupAtheist]

Not after I paid to have six billion boxes distributed across every market in the world.

Anyway, if NCSoft could touch Blizz in terms of actual subscribers, they would say so.  The whole thing reeked of sophistry and bullshit from the get-go.

[Lantyssa]

I meant a dollar net profit per box.  Even a fraction of a cent would be great with that many sales.

[HRose]

Stop being needlessly convontational, Hrose.

L2: 1.5m
WoW: 6m

I am sure the the ratio would be greater, if it just Norh America.

Latest numbers are quite surprising. Even too much to be believable.

L2 is at 1.302.340 worldwide

It lost another 200k in Korea and L1 lost 900k in the last four months.

Surprisingly L2 is up to 90k in US+EU. Oddly growing here and getting crushed in Korea.

How can this make sense?

[Trippy]

Latest numbers are quite surprising. Even too much to be believable.

L2 is at 1.302.340 worldwide

It lost another 200k in Korea and L1 lost 900k in the last four months.

Surprisingly L2 is up to 90k in US+EU. Oddly growing here and getting crushed in Korea.

How can this make sense?

Maybe WoW is still growing over there (they are #3 over there after all)? Also, it seems like everybody and their uncle is developing an MMOG over there -- they have lots more competition than we do over here in the US.

[HRose]

Fuck. You reminded me something. I don't remember where I've seen it.

In Korea Blizzard cut down the prices on WoW.

Fuck, I don't remember where I've seen this. GAH!

[Trippy]

I posted that earlier -- it's from here.

[HRose]

Oh well, that's why I didn't bookmarked it -_-

[Broughden]

'Lineage 2 reached more than 14-million customers in just over two years'

13 million of which are farmers.

[HRose]

'Lineage 2 reached more than 14-million customers in just over two years'

13 million of which are farmers.

Who buys gold then?