Is GTA: SA an RPG?

[WindupAtheist]

Had a rather spirited debate on this topic with some gaming cohorts of mine.  Does Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas qualify as an RPG?  Everyone says no, but nobody can really tell me why not.  Any standards people tried to set to disqualify SA had the side-effect of disqualifying about 99% of everything else as well.

I say it's an RPG.  Furthermore, I say it's the most refreshing RPG to come down the pipe in eons.  I say it's what an RPG can be when it's stripped of all the Tolkien-plundering lore, boring combat, and shitty D&D game mechanics.  Discuss.

[schild]

We have a word for this. It's called "trappings." For example, God of War is an action game with platformer and RPG trappings.

[Samwise]

I agree.

Not sure I'd call GTA:SA a purebred RPG simply because it has too much twitch.  Pure RPGs never have twitchy player skill weigh heavily in character success(which is why I usually avoid pure RPGs), whereas GTA places a lot of importance on reflexes and spatial awareness and that sort of thing.  Having a high "driving skill" does not make you a good driver in GTA.

There are definitely enough RPG 'trappings' that I wouldn't blame you for just calling it an RPG, though.  It's pretty close in my book.

[Azazel]

As we (and many others) have discussed ad nauseum here and elsewhere, the term "RPG" when applied to computer games is really a misnomer, since there's not a whole lotta actual "role playing" going on.

Having said that, if you're the kind of person that consideres, say, the Zelda games to be RPGs, then GTA:SA would be an RPG. If you think the Zeldas are Action-adventure games with RPG-ish trappings, then GTA:SA would again be the same thing.

I agree though, that in general because it doesn't have a turn-based combat system, OR is set in the mytical kingdom of Hyruleadoop, or feature Elves, that people are less likely to call it an RPG.

But then, is Diablo an RPG? Or just Gauntlet on Steroids? And what does that make WoW?

mmmm.. cross-genre questions...

[eldaec]

Is GTA: SA an RPG?

Yes.

It might be other things as well.

[schild]

Ooooh, applying multiple genres to things. That's always fun. So, does the battlegrounds in WoW make it a sports game....among other things?

Eldaec, it's a dangerous game you're playing. Don't be that guy.

Personally, I hate applying genres to anything. But without them I couldn't be able to say anything like "MMORPGs are sucking balls. Consistantly." So, whatever. I have cake but can't eat it.

[WindupAtheist]

I've got it.  Here's the definition of an RPG:  It's a real RPG if an attack, which to every appearance is perfectly on target, can "miss" because of some abstract randomized "attack rating versus defense rating" bullshit.  That'll keep Morrowind in despite it's real-time combat and aiming reticule, but keep those damned GTA: SA darkies out of the lilly-white elves-and-pixes country club.

[schild]

I don't actually support the idea that an RPG has to match up to the jRPG type of combat. I've always leaned more towards some nebulous definition where you aren't the hero and you're just experiencing his story. Also, when I call something an RPG, it means that the RPG elements are greater than other gaming elements. It's all just about the dominant traits here. GTA has RPG elements. Great. It has more in common with action games though. Therefore I call it an action game. jRPGs are RPGs, the RPG elements are the most obvious there. FF:T could easily fall under the title "RPG" but it's not, It's a tactics game. It's very painfully obviously a tactics game. Star Wars games, for example, have lots in common with action titles, but the shit aspect is the most obvious thing the game offers, therefore they fall under the 'shit' genre.

[eldaec]

It's a real RPG if an attack, which to every appearance is perfectly on target, can "miss" because of some abstract randomized "attack rating versus defense rating"

Guild Wars doesn't allow you to miss in melee ever, and does allow you to dodge projectiles, but it is an rpg.

Neocron is an rpg, but has aiming etc.

Deus Ex was probably an rpg.

[Calantus]

I have difficulty caring if it is an RPG or not, but when I think on it I can't really see why it would or would not be an RPG. Really I think it's more that we've been exposed to X type of RPG, and so when anything deviates sufficiently we just can't accept that it is an RPG. Would GTA:SA qualify as an RPG if put up against a fair set of standards? Probably. Did it feel like an RPG when I played it? No. I'm  gonna sit on the "not an rpg" fence because of my perceptions and not dwell on whether it could be because I don't care. I think most people would either be the same, or would be denying its an RPG because they don't want to accept that it could be an RPG despite not feeling like one.

[Sky]

Yes.

[Xilren's Twin]

Personally, my operative "definition" of an RPG or not is purely based on the character.  If my avatar's capabilities are primarily dependant on stats and/or skill levels assigned to the avatar itself, and not my own personal "player skill", AND those stats/skill levels change over the course of gameplay, it's an RPG.  Usually, you control a single avatar, but this can be extended to small groups of avatars, the party).  Of yeah, and if there are elves.

Course, the semi-official 8 ball answer is maybe, but signs point to yes. Not that it matters. 

It's a bit like Jethro Tull winning a music award for "hard rock/heavy metal". :)

Xilren

[Yegolev]

I think it's a RPG, although it breaks the "you can't jump in a RPG" rule.

[Stormwaltz]

Can you do complete the plot in more than one way? If not, I'd argue against it being a roleplaying game. A game with a good story that the player has no influence on is more properly called an "adventure game."

Before you ask, I consider most Japanese console RPGs "interactive anime" - playing through a movie, not actual roleplaying. I realize this perspective makes me weird, and I'm comfortable with that.

[Yegolev]

Can you do complete the plot in more than one way? If not, I'd argue against it being a roleplaying game. A game with a good story that the player has no influence on is more properly called an "adventure game."

I can agree with that, and it would reclassify a lot of games, wouldn't it?  Depending on what you meant by "different way".  I'm having a hard time thinking of specific examples, on the PC at least.  Maybe Half-Life is a RPG, then.

[Samwise]

Half-Life only had the one plotline and one ending that I'm aware of.

[Stormwaltz]

Half-Life only had the one plotline and one ending that I'm aware of.

When Cigarette Smoking Man asks you at the end if you want to work for him, you can say no.

And then he kills you.

Which doesn't qualify as a real choice, IMO.

[Murgos]

Can you do complete the plot in more than one way? If not, I'd argue against it being a roleplaying game. A game with a good story that the player has no influence on is more properly called an "adventure game."

There has been some discussion on Oblivion's message boards as to whether or not Oblivion is an RPG for this very reason.  The plot will never change and there is only one path to the 'end' of the main quest.  But I can play Oblivion for 50 hours or even 500 hours and never even advance the plot at all.  Isn't that even more 'non-linear' than having a few branches at the end of a pipe?  According to your definition Oblivion would be an Adventure game (whatever that means) and yet I can play numerous unrelated roles in the game.

Is a single fork enough for any game to be a role playing game?  What about an RTS with primary and secondary (non-required) objectives?  There is a branch, there is more than one way to advance the plot, I doubt if too many people would be persuaded that that makes it an RPG.

[Yegolev]

Half-Life only had the one plotline and one ending that I'm aware of.

Well, you could either go along with the Man, or be eaten by aliens.  I think it does count since Valve went through the trouble of constructing the part where you are dropped into the nasty place and get eaten.

[Triforcer]

Can you do complete the plot in more than one way? If not, I'd argue against it being a roleplaying game. A game with a good story that the player has no influence on is more properly called an "adventure game."

Before you ask, I consider most Japanese console RPGs "interactive anime" - playing through a movie, not actual roleplaying. I realize this perspective makes me weird, and I'm comfortable with that.

The greatest RPG ever!

http://www.seanbaby.com/nes/w20-16.htm

[Bunk]

I agree.

Not sure I'd call GTA:SA a purebred RPG simply because it has too much twitch.  Pure RPGs never have twitchy player skill weigh heavily in character success(which is why I usually avoid pure RPGs), whereas GTA places a lot of importance on reflexes and spatial awareness and that sort of thing.  Having a high "driving skill" does not make you a good driver in GTA.

There are definitely enough RPG 'trappings' that I wouldn't blame you for just calling it an RPG, though.  It's pretty close in my book.

Actually Sam, driving skill does affect how you drive.Turning and control actually become easier as your skill increases. Same with Flying, riding, etc, they all become easier to control as your skill increases. Shooting is also affected, as you gain faster targeting and reloading, as well additional options as your gun skill increases.

The game includes developable skills, custom looks, developable attributes, numerous side quests, and main plot "quests" that have multiple ways to complete (to some extent).

Far as I'm concerned, it qualifies as an RPG.

[Sky]

I dislike when people equate roleplaying with stat-based gameplay or having an adventuring party. Madden football would be an rpg, I even think there are elves, but that may have been Jeff Garcia.

[Samwise]

Having a high "driving skill" does not make you a good driver in GTA.

There are definitely enough RPG 'trappings' that I wouldn't blame you for just calling it an RPG, though.  It's pretty close in my book.

Actually Sam, driving skill does affect how you drive.

Yes, but a high driving skill alone does not turn you from a shitty driver into a spectacular driver.  It basically provides a small buff to your car.  Player skill is still the primary factor in determining success.  Ditto with the weapons; having a high AK skill jacks the damage way up, which is very nice, but it's no substitute for having good enough aim to just pop the guy in the head.

By contrast, most RPGs make the "stats" the primary determining factor in success, such that it is impossible to complete certain challenges without having certain stats, and ridiculously easy to complete them given sufficiently high stats.

I'm fairly confident that all of the GTA:SA missions would be completable by a "newbie" character (perhaps with a little more difficulty), and that even given a fully "twinked out" character, a complete novice to the game would have a lot of difficulty completing the harder missions.

[Bunk]

Let me revise my statement in this manner:

San Andreas is an RPG by my simple deffinition of what constitutes an RPG. It is not however what I want in an RPG. It is mind you exactly what I want in an twitched based, story driven yet free form, action game (that also happens to qualify as an RPG).

Honestly, take a game like Ultima 7. It was an RPG by every deffinition, and really a great game. For me though, its not a Good RPG, because it railroads you in to a particular character. You are the Avatar and you follow the virtues. That isn't what I want in an RPG. Doesn't mean it isn't an RPG though.

[Pococurante]

Whoa.  I think it takes extreme exposure to PC thinking to dumb down RPg to the infamous UO Dread Lord "I'm roleplaying a psychopath killer who emotes *azzrape* over yer corpse".  Role playing is not "methinks" and "thou".  But it's not simply pointing at the toon and barking out "look at me I'm THERE!".

To play a role means a certain degree of acting and projecting, an ability to add an element the environment otherwise lacks, to force events to adapt to the character not the character to some pre-planned set of rails.  A plot complication on steroids.  If I'm back to the fuzzy thinking of the early 1990s sure I'll admit doing *anything* is role play.  Hey look at me! I'm Clear Signal Guy! Can You Hear Me? Can You Hear Me?

Role play means the ability to create any path of conclusion.  And that's why computer games continue to suck at it.  And will until we get to an Otherland level of technology.

I suggest we drop RPg and stick with CRPg.  Yes, GTA:xxx is a passable CRPg.  And is about as influential in role play theory as a pixellated bucket of warm spit.  Hell *real* warm spit has much more applicability to true RPg.

Oh BTW I'm old school - feel free to dismiss me back to the rack of eight track tapes and Atari consoles. ;)

[Litigator]

Well, there's very little opportunity for playing of roles in roleplaying games. GTA doesn't give you options with regard to who to be, but neither do most Japanese RPGs.

The idea of a world that you can affect in different ways is something that the better American RPGs have aspired to, but the closest that they've come to bearing fruit on the concept is parallel paths for good and evil.

I'd say then that an RPG isn't characterized by role playing, so it must be defined by some other characteristic, and I think that's the D&D derived dice rolling that's going on behind the scenes in all RPGs. GTA doesn't have random rolls, and therefore, it's an action game. 

[Azazel]

I don't actually support the idea that an RPG has to match up to the jRPG type of combat. I've always leaned more towards some nebulous definition where you aren't the hero and you're just experiencing his story.

Which is pretty much the opposite of P&P Roleplaying, where you create your own characters. Unless you mean "you're a sidekick next to the hero, like Antonio Banderas in 13th Warrior."

Though your definition as read there impiles that GTA:SA and Far Cry and even Doom 3 are RPGs, which is obviously not your intent. So if you could clarify, that would, uh, clarify.

Yes, but a high driving skill alone does not turn you from a shitty driver into a spectacular driver.  It basically provides a small buff to your car.  Player skill is still the primary factor in determining success.  Ditto with the weapons; having a high AK skill jacks the damage way up, which is very nice, but it's no substitute for having good enough aim to just pop the guy in the head.

By contrast, most RPGs make the "stats" the primary determining factor in success, such that it is impossible to complete certain challenges without having certain stats, and ridiculously easy to complete them given sufficiently high stats.

72. Person. Pick. Up. Planar. Progression. Raids. in. Everquest. 1.



But anyway, this thread is pretty much just arguing personal definitions. No console or computer-based RPG has what I'd consider actual roleplaying in it. So, you know, meh.

[WindupAtheist]

You know, I didn't really get to choose who I was or how the story progressed in Ultima 7 or Final Fantasy anything, either.

[stray]

Y'all might be better off not referencing or even thinking about pen and paper RPG's at this point.

As for GTA: It's an Action/Adventure game. Sure, it has (C)RPG elements, but if one is going to say it's an RPG, then they might as well call just about all Action/Adventure games, sports games, and even some fighting games RPG's.

[Pococurante]

Which is pretty much my point.  If all it takes to be an RPG is a printed brochure shipped with the CD that "no one" ever reads past page three than there is no point in any label at all.

[Yegolev]

Yes, but a high driving skill alone does not turn you from a shitty driver into a spectacular driver.  It basically provides a small buff to your car.  Player skill is still the primary factor in determining success.  Ditto with the weapons; having a high AK skill jacks the damage way up, which is very nice, but it's no substitute for having good enough aim to just pop the guy in the head.

The benefits of gaining skill in San Andreas were pretty substantial compared to a traditional player-skill game.  Was it the AK that, when you mastered it, targeted the head instead of the chest?  The pistol?  I forget but I think it was the pistol.  Also max level with SMG let you use two Uzis.  Then there were the bunnyhops on the bicycles which let you leap ten-foot-high fences eventually.  Also the difference in stability between zero and max motocycle skill was astounding.  I know that this is hair-splitting, but I suggest that downplaying the effect of character skill in GTA:SA is a mistake.

Also, Stray is right.  I just happen to be rather lenient with my RPG labels.  I consider a Ratchet & Clank game to be a type of RPG.

[Silus Fromme]

Do you get to choose dialog in GTA: SA?  No - one strike against.

Does your character have skills/attributes that develop over time?  Yes - one count for.

Do you, the player, dictate the pace and (more importantly) direction of your character's development?  Kind of a toss up here.  If you choose to spend all your time on bikes and not in cars your bike skill will increase more than your car skill, and you get to pick a fight style as well as choose how much you eat/exercise.  But all available skills and attributes are predefined and on every playthrough of the game you will always have the same set at more or less the same levels.  Also fight style is cosmetic, affecting only model animations.  Neither a vote for nor against.

Is the storyline "open-ended"?  Do the actions of the player impact the development of the story in any way beyond "you win!" or "you haven't won yet!"  No - two strikes against.

Can you "mentally" roleplay while playing SA?  Irrelevant, perhaps unfortunately.  People "making their own game" doesn't really reflect on the innate genre of the game itself.


San Andreas was, I believe, Rockstar's attempt to weave more RPG elements into a franchise that had previously been pretty pure action.  I find it interesting that many of those elements wound up being turn-offs for their fan base or at the very least considered gimmicky.  Even so, I don't believe that Rockstar was intending to make an RPG so much as expand and possibly deepen the gameplay of the series.

Also, as has been noted above, very few CRPGs have been real RPGs in the basement-full-of-empty-mountain-dew-bottles sense of the word.  Computers are able to handle the mechanics of DnD et al. quite well, so implementation of rulesets tended to be the focus of early CRPG development, which led towards the solidification of "hack and slash" as a gameplay genre but also perhaps misassociated "guys with swords and stats who explore dungeons and gain loot" as being equal to "roleplaying game".  The early CRPGs (I'm thinking SSI Gold box, Magic Candle, Might and Magic 1, Bard's Tale, Shard of Spring) arose at a time when using a computer to participate in writing an interactive story with a group of people all acting the parts of fully-developed alternate personalities with their own goals and ambitions in an environment without true beginning or end was barely conceivable.  One of the closest "true" role-play experiences to be found in those early single player CRPGs would be in Tunnels and Trolls I think.  It was one of the first I remember where choices you made could exclude you from game content beyond "I didn't do this sidequest" without contributing directly to "You lose!"

Today the experience of participatory story development isn't honestly much more present in single-player games than it was way back when.  Community projects like MUDs and NWN persistent worlds tend to reflect just how pervasively "hack and slash" has become associated with "role-playing".  Prior to the advent of CRPGs a game session of an RPG group might involve no combat at all, or might involve one combat encounter towards the end of multiple hours of interactive role-playing, dialog, and meta-discussion.  Now many folks who self-identify as hardcore RPGers howl in protest against the suggestion that they might spend 2 or 3 hours logged into their favorite server/character without experiencing frequent combat at best in conjunction with, and at worst in a ratio far out-stripping, time spent "socializing".


I think I got a little distracted in there waxing poetic about the days of yore.  My point was that the GTA series is, was, and likely will continue to be an Action series but that SA experimented with RPG elements as defined within the much narrower framework of traditional CRPG experience.

[WindupAtheist]

You know, given the subject matter of this website and the title of this goddamned forum, I should think that the "C" in front of "RPG" in the initial post would be implied.  Telling me how neither GTA, nor Final Fantasy, nor Ultima is an RPG when compared to these guys isn't terribly productive.

(And no, it's not the  old "LIGHTNING BOLT!" video.)

[Azazel]

LARPers are as different to P&P Roleplayers as CRPGers are.