Cyberpunks Unite!

[schild]

The only worldly attributes Planetside has is people and land. World implies breadth. Planetside has none. It just has a reasonably deep combat system. I'm hesitant to lay down a raw definition for virtual world but Planetside would not fit the bill in any way, shape, or form.

[Trippy]

The only worldly attributes Planetside has is people and land. World implies breadth. Planetside has none. It just has a reasonably deep combat system. I'm hesitant to lay down a raw definition for virtual world but Planetside would not fit the bill in any way, shape, or form.

We will just have to agree to disagree then. The term "virtual world" was being used before there were PC-based online graphical games and I have no problem calling FPSers virtual worlds hence my disagreement with your claim that nobody has made a fun virtual world with guns.

[HRose]

Raph was on this (the definition of virtual world) recently.

Virtual worlds are implemented by a computer (or network of computers) that simulates an environment. Some — but not all — the entities in this environment act under the direct control of individual people. Because several such people can affect the same environment simultaneously, the world is said to shared or multi-user. The environment continues to exist and to develop internally (at least to some degree) even when there are no people interacting with it; this means it is persistent.

The quote is from Richard Barttle, though. But I agree. The core concept is the persistence. The "objectivity" of some parts and the depth and variety of interactions, where these interactions don't happen linearly but in a systemic relationship (elements within a set, so where each can be potentially linked with everything else instead of elements one after the other, where each element is only linked to the previous and the next).

There's no precise definition of a virtual world, but the more there is persitence and variety of interactions and systemic complexity, the more you go closer to a legitimate virtual world.

These definitions come right from sociology since a virtual world is exactly a complex system.

"Virtual world" and "sandbox" are synonymous to an extent.

Put in another way: if the author dies, the world continues on its own. This is another interesting definition. If we assume that god is dead we can think of reality as a virtual world :)

[schild]

You know, one of my requirements in modern times for a virtual world is Other People. Lots of them. Or else it doesn't feel like a world at all (see: My Oblivion Review). I label Oblivion as a Sandbox. Because it's single player. And I'd extend the term Virtual World to it if there were other folks.

Edit: Gah. Fuck. HRose just used his cyberstalker freak abilities to say most of what I just said, but with quotes.

[Morfiend]

It already seems to be a substantial opinion on this board that a properly-made Shadowrun MMORPG would be made of win.  Ghost in the Shell?  Not so much.  How about a Bladerunner MMORPG?

Why do we have to have a licence. Cant some one just make an original Cyberpunk game?

Oh wait...

[Azazel]

Daddy, what does "original" mean?

Actually, isn't AO semi-cyberpunk already? Or do you need to have a USB or Ethernet port in the base of your skull/your temple to be properly cyberpunk? Or do you need to have a carry-around keyboard deck so you can hax0r into the intrawebs?

Because, you know, Blade Runner didn't have those things. And shitty requels aside, I'd classify the Matrix as pretty safely cyberpunk (and by extension, MXO).

[schild]

Carry around a keyboard? I think I've played that already.



Cyberpunk? Typing of the Dead? Who'd have thunk it?

[Technocrat]

@schild: Now that's funny!

[Kitsune]

Typing of the dead rocks all comers.

AO has Cyberpunk elements, but doesn't cleanly fall into the genre.  Cyberpunk requires a dystopsian cynicism on top of cyberware and the matrix, because much of it hinges on the feeling that, despite so much technology connecting everyone together, everyone is also more alone than they've ever been.  That humanity is drowning in the technology it created, sacrificing that very humanity upon an altar of technology that nobody really understands.

[Engels]

I felt that that kind of angst was at least implied. With Omnitek as the huge corporate oppressor vs the Clans as the more 'earthy' people, strugging for their humanity in a sea of evil technology that has to be used to survive. At least, that was always the 'feel' for me.

Noone has yet developed an MMO that is as succesful as EQ or WoW in large part because the genre requires a taste for this angsty and somewhat intellectual perspective on our current society, and most folks just want to return to hobbitville and forget that they log into a computer each day at work. Cyberpunk isn't escapism, its a confirmation of our worst fears.

My partner, who's area of special study in school was cyberpunk fiction, says it cuts even deeper. We have well over a century of fantasy fiction, argueably longer if you take into account children's fairy tales which date back to who knows when. Cyberpunk is a modern phenomenon. Fantasy comes naturally to most folks, what with the facile dichotomies of good and evil, light vs dark. Cyberpunk posits a world in which evil has already prevailed. Sauron has won and the survivors live in a day to day that's all about living within the evil that permeates us and a struggle to keep your identity ensues.

Does this mean that the genre is even more niche than fantasy? For now, yes. Take a casual poll among whoever, and ask who Tolkien is versus who Philip K Dick or William Gibson are. You can argue Frankenstein and Dracula as post modern precursors of cyberpunk, but here you find people not really understanding what they've read. The fantasy lovers still get ugly monsters to kill, while post modernists see the nuances of both monsters as reflections of society embracing technology and its dangers of eliminating identity.

It is argueable however, that as we progress as a technological  society we will turn to cyberpunk as a storytelling genre more and more.

[Kitsune]

The cyberpunk literary genre seems to have more or less already gone.  Once we got into the 90s, near-future fiction took a turn away from people putting chips in their heads and a bleak world of dark technology.  Lately the fiction is more biotech and nanotech, reflecting all of the advancements we've made in those fields, and the future, while still inhuman and soulless, is now inhuman and soulless under a shiny wrapper of brand names and corporate logos.

In the 80s, technology was still scary.  I remember my family's first VCR, it had half a dozen little dials and meters on it that needed to be adjusted just so to play the tapes without any tracking lines rolling on the screen.  Computers were arcane, unusable monochrome terrors.

Now everything's friendly and shiny and has a happy apple logo on it and an 'i' in front of its name.  People don't understand the technology any better, but it's automated and user-friendlied to the point that they don't have to understand it.

[Engels]

I think you're mistaken because you assume that those people interested in cyberpunk were interested in it because of a fear they had. Most fans of the genre are tech savvy, and were 'back then' too. If anything, your depiction of the world no longer being scared of technology yet it being all the more powerful than before feeds the genre rather than starves it. You have the added factor of a cowed populace to compound the angst.

[WindupAtheist]

If you made a game that had the Genesis Shadowrun depth of gameplay and the SNES Shadowrun graphics, with a bigger world, multiplayer, and persistence, I would totally pay five bucks a month to play it.

[Azazel]

That SNES game was good stuff. Even finished that one.

[WindupAtheist]

The SNES one had the superior graphics and sound, and did a spectacular job of creating the right atmosphere.  I played the hell out of it.  But for actual gameplay, the Genesis game smoked it.  It had unlimited randomly-generated missions, an incredibly deep Matrix game, and a very strong sense of world-ness overall.  The game actually cared whether your weapon was legal or not, whether you had equipped a duster to conceal it, or whether you had bribed a corrupt city official for a permit.  Eventually you could chose to sign up with either the Mafia or the Yakuza (although you weren't required to join either one) which would grant certain benefits, but open you to attack by whichever faction you rejected.  Stuff like that.

Shit, I may download the ROM and start playing it again.

[Yegolev]

My post was suppose to be humorus, but I didn't antisipate it being received by such profound cynisism.

That's what lurking is for, nooblet.  Or maybe reading the tagline on the front page.  Or maybe the top of this very page.  I received a secret note from someone, written in lemon juice, which hinted that the word "cynical" could be found hidden somewhere on this very web site.

By the way, your humor needs some work.  I recommend Jackie Mason and Bob Newhart.

If you made a game that had the Genesis Shadowrun depth of gameplay and the SNES Shadowrun graphics, with a bigger world, multiplayer, and persistence, I would totally pay five bucks a month to play it.

Me too.  Maybe $4.95 a month.  I like fooling myself.

[HaemishM]

Wow, what a friendly community! Man 'o man do I feel welcome here!

Mole? Whore? This isn't a product, it's only ideas, there are no plans for a cyberpunk MMOG, unfortunately.  

There were, many many years ago. Unfortunately, no one wanted to fund it.

[WindupAtheist]

Tangent:  Someone needs to make a worthwhile online RPG that costs $5 a month.  And by worthwhile I mean something capable of providing an amusing diversion for a few hours per week, not an ubershiny content-intensive alternate reality used by catasses to escape their lives.  Give me something with simple but well-conceived graphics, and reasonably engaging gameplay, for a nominal fee and I'll probably never bother to unsubscribe.  I'll just pop in a couple times a month to hack the Matrix or shoot monsters, and not worry about the 17 cents per day it costs me.

[Hoax]

1.  This is how to NOT do a first post.  It is never a good idea to sign up to a board because you "just have to tell other people about something because it is soooo cool".

2.  Do a search in the MMOG Discussion forum for the word "niche" read every post, I'll see you in a month.

3.  GITS would not work for shit, esp. GITS:SAC for a bajillion reasons most notably not everyone gets to be in section9 otherwise the whole world looses its meaning.  When your trying to cherry pick established IP you should avoid the ones where the heroes are clearly defined.  See LTRO for a good idea of what not to do.

4.  Very good post by Engles about the limitations of Cyberpunk versus Fantasy.

5.  All in all, this was a pretty fun thread, not as fun as Lantyssa's first thread but a good one none the less.

[Engels]

Thanks for the compliment, Hoax 

[kaid]

I loved the genisis and snes versions of shadowrun both kicked much ass. I played through and beat both back in the day. The Snes one I think was a bit better graphically but the Genisis one's missions and matrix were way better. I used to have fun just jacking in and doing paydata runs you could find some funny gossip just hacking around in random corps computers.


kaid

[Lantyssa]

Er, which are you considering my first thread?  (And do I want it pointed out?)

Edit: Corn in the gastank?

[Bunk]

The cyberpunk literary genre seems to have more or less already gone.  Once we got into the 90s, near-future fiction took a turn away from people putting chips in their heads and a bleak world of dark technology.  Lately the fiction is more biotech and nanotech, reflecting all of the advancements we've made in those fields, and the future, while still inhuman and soulless, is now inhuman and soulless under a shiny wrapper of brand names and corporate logos.

Its interesting how Gibson's books started out as the hardcore Granddaddy of Cyberpunk and then progressively went backwards to the point that his latest book barely touches on futuristic tech at all.

[schild]

Did your John Travolta get bunny ears for Easter?

[Signe]

It's nice to see some people celebrating this festive season.  I know my family and I will enjoy that roast bunny and all the trimmings on Sunday!

[Technocrat]

@Engels: I totally agree with you when you say that "Cyberpunk isn't escapism, its a confirmation of our worst fears." and a product of our cowardice and complacency, I would add. But I must disagree with your assertion that "Cyberpunk posits a world in which evil has already prevailed." The Cyberpunk world is extremely bad and would otherwise overwhelm, save for one thing: The tender flame of human spirit. That's what drives the Cyberpunk to keep hacking, to keep fighting, to swallow the bitterness and go on; Because, at the end of the day, there is always the promise of Solomon's ring..."This too shall pass".

@Bunk: Given the acceleration of technological advance, perhaps Gibson is beginning to feel more like a chronicler than a Sci-Fi writer.

@The f13 forum police: Go fuck yourselves!

@The f13 Overlord: You have really nice forums here, very luxurious.
 

[Toast]

I've never been able to get immersed in cyberpunk games. The concepts are just too unrealistic.

I don't want to have chips put into my body (wonder what the co-pay would be with rising medical insurance costs extended out into the dark future?). I don't like shooting guns.

It's easy to relate to picking up a sword or a mace and going to town. And, magic is even easy and fun wish for. Just point your finger, and the monster goes boom!

Give me a two faction pvp game with a technology-based society versus a magical fantasy society. That would be interesting (probably exists in some niche)

[Trippy]

Give me a two faction pvp game with a technology-based society versus a magical fantasy society. That would be interesting (probably exists in some niche)

RF Online (with three sides) and Rise of Legends (upcoming RTS from Rise of Nations peeps) among others.

[Llava]

Give me a two faction pvp game with a technology-based society versus a magical fantasy society. That would be interesting (probably exists in some niche)

I came up with the concept for a game very much like that called Sect.

But it was three factions.

One was high-tech cyberpunk.  Its side consisted of genetically engineered humans and androids.  It was called The Chamber, and their society was run by a powerful AI called Galaxy with roots in...

The Creed.  Based on dark folklore (think Baba Yaga, not so much Legolas), this faction would represent the fantasy/horror aspect of the game, with witches and monsters composing the driving forces behind their faction's actions.

Lastly, the Wayward was a vaguely anarchic group, refusing the harsh and unquestioning comformity of the Chamber while rejecting the caste-like system inherent in the Creed's ways.  Living in a twisted network of tunnels composed largely of scrap from Galaxy's first attempt to build a society separate from the Creed, members of the Wayward have embraced a vaguely nihilistic philosophy.  Many are insane, and many of these mad ones carry significant psionic potential.

I felt I'd covered three major genres that would attract a decent mix of people- fantasy/horror, Tron-like high tech, and junkyard cultism.

But past the story behind the world, I didn't get very far.   Hell, I didn't even develop the story all that well.  Though with a bit of encouragement I'd probably force myself to sit down and define a chain of events that landed the world in its current state.

Would have to redo some of those names, though.  The Creed particularly.  I wouldn't want any part of my game reminding anyone of Scott Stapp.

[Engels]

I've never been able to get immersed in cyberpunk games. The concepts are just too unrealistic.

...magic is even easy and fun wish for. Just point your finger, and the monster goes boom!

...

[Hoax]

I decided not to point out how retarded I found that statement to be either..

How you can possibly argue that immersing yourself in the land of thees and thous and saying stupid shit about drinking mead is easy.  While maintaining immersion in a world where basically as long as you maintain some level of adherence to the gameworld lore and dont refer to the real world or the fact that the game is a game you can't really "break" character is fucking beyond me.

*shrug* different strokes for different folks I guess, BUT YOUR STROKES ARE WRONG!

[Technocrat]

I've never been able to get immersed in cyberpunk games. The concepts are just too unrealistic.

Your joking, right?

Hehe, the concepts presented in the Cyberpunk worlds are little more than extrapolations of our own present day realities...That's why it's so god damn unnerving. Indeed, everything present in the Cyberpunk world already exists, albeit to a lesser degree, here and now, in our everyday lives.

I'll bet you would like Shadowrun...it has a lot of fantasy elements blended in with the Cyberpunk; It's got your elves, your dwarfs, magic,
all that kinda stuff.

@Engels: You gave me a good idea...I asked some people a really simple: What is Cyberpunk? The responses I got were a little surprising.
I found out that there are a lot of people who don't really know what Cyberpunk is...more than half didn't know. I take that as a really good sign! Now it's more a matter of educating people about the Cyberpunk world, rather than trying to win converts.

Anyhow, thanks for the idea!

[Azazel]

I never played the Genesis version of Shadowrun. Not sure if it was ever released here. Sounds like I would have enjoyed it.

Its interesting how Gibson's books started out as the hardcore Granddaddy of Cyberpunk and then progressively went backwards to the point that his latest book barely touches on futuristic tech at all.

Well, you can only write the same thing over and over so many times before you essentially become a self-cannibalising parody. See that new Red Hot Chili Peppers song for an example. I think it's called "California" something-or-other.

I'm far from forum police, but if you try it, you might find that fucking yourself is a fun activity to indulge in from time to time.

And Toast.. well just put me on the list of "ooh-kay".... 

[Glazius]

I decided not to point out how retarded I found that statement to be either..

How you can possibly argue that immersing yourself in the land of thees and thous and saying stupid shit about drinking mead is easy.  While maintaining immersion in a world where basically as long as you maintain some level of adherence to the gameworld lore and dont refer to the real world or the fact that the game is a game you can't really "break" character is fucking beyond me.

*shrug* different strokes for different folks I guess, BUT YOUR STROKES ARE WRONG!

It's more a question of AM vs FM.

That is, a world where you know the Absolute Mechanics versus one that's just Fuckin' Magic.

Of course, the world as we know it is pretty AM, and "it stands to reason" that a gritty/dystopian/realistic cyberpunk game is going to end up pretty AM too. Shadowrun actually does a good job with its AM as far as it goes, even for the more fantastic elements.

But fantasy games are a lot more inherently FM, so it's easier to forgive the inconsistencies.

--GF

[Toast]

Sheesh, sorry about the fruity magic reference. I took off my pointy wizard hat there.

I still think that the use of magic is an appealing fantasy element. I was thinking in terms of the Harry Potter series.