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Author Topic: Player funeral ambushed.  (Read 73076 times)
Threash
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Reply #245 on: April 18, 2006, 09:51:29 PM

You can't seriously be implying that killing someone would be against the rules can you? getting ganked is no harrassment, no matter what you where doing or why they where doing it.  Alliance killing Horde is the whole fucking "essence" of World of Warcraft.  I hope you where joking because trying to argue that pvp is against the rules on a pvp server is just beyond retarded.

I am the .00000001428%
Strazos
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Reply #246 on: April 18, 2006, 09:53:24 PM

Learn2Read, dipshit. Stop trolling.

Fear the Backstab!
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"Hell is other people." -Sartre
schild
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Reply #247 on: April 18, 2006, 09:54:31 PM

Learn2Read, dipshit. Stop trolling.

Stay Classy, New Jersey!
Calantus
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Reply #248 on: April 19, 2006, 12:09:03 AM

/spit and /fart were specifically put into the game so you could use them. And yet, walking up and /spitting on the avatar of a dead person at their memorial would be classless. Perfectly legal, yes, but classless. And to do so makes you an asshole. Not illegal. Still Assholish.

By the same token: Walking up and knowingly killing the avatar of a dead person at their memorial in front of all their grieving friends? Perfectly legal. Classless. Assholish. Fin.

That's where my participation here ends. If people don't get it now they never will.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2006, 12:27:16 AM by Calantus »
Azazel
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Reply #249 on: April 19, 2006, 12:34:11 AM

I basically think 2 thinks about this story:

1) The players were STUPID to hold it in a PVP zone, so what happened was inevitable and deserved.
2) The players who ganked the funeral were being assholes and their consciences should have told them against it.

So you see, I don't really take either side here, I believe both of them are wrong.

QFT.

Calantus wins the thread. Several pages ago.


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Telemediocrity
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Reply #250 on: April 19, 2006, 01:00:55 AM

Simply hold the field (or anywhere else for that matter) during a time out or other break in play to be equivalent to the forums, and the analogy works fine.

See, here's the thing: people like to hold memorials for dead people in places that were special to the dead person.  Apparently the particular spot they decided to hold the WoW funeral was the dead person's favorite area, and just happened to be a PvP area as well.

Wouldn't the appropriate action there be for the players to talk to Blizzard and get Blizzard to make a temporary exception to the rules for them - akin to the soccer stadium making allowances for a player tribute at halftime?

And if Blizzard is unwilling to do so - Well, hasn't the value judgement been made, then?
WindupAtheist
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Reply #251 on: April 19, 2006, 01:49:20 AM

If my special favorite place was downtown Fallujah, probably not wise to try and party there after I die.

"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
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HaemishM
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Reply #252 on: April 19, 2006, 07:22:11 AM

Quote
We will note also that most competitive sports have the concept of a "time out".

It's called a "safe zone".

In the ridiculous soccer field analogy, the "safe zone" would be someplace outside the stadium.

Who gives a fuck what the mechanic is?  There is a way in WoW to suspend competition while remaining logged in, and it's called going to a god damned safe zone.  When you go out into a contested zone, the game is fucking on.

But as has been said before, there is no way to suspend the griefing ability of other players. The method really doesn't matter, what matters is a gaggle of anal fissures got together and decided to grief someone's in-game funeral because they could.

Samwise
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Reply #253 on: April 19, 2006, 08:37:16 AM

And if Blizzard is unwilling to do so - Well, hasn't the value judgement been made, then?

Blizzard being unwilling to specially alter the game code or use paid GMs to prevent people from being assholes for one hour in one particular place doesn't magically make those people not assholes.  It just means Blizzard doesn't make thwarting assholes their highest business priority.  Few companies do.
Lantyssa
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Reply #254 on: April 19, 2006, 12:00:46 PM

In a chain of links I managed to reach Raph's page on The Laws of Universe Design.  In the begining of the social section I came across an interesting one.  So as a rebuttal to "It's just a game, get over it" fans:
Quote
Is it a game?
It's a SERVICE. Not a game. It's a WORLD. Not a game. It's a COMMUNITY. Not a game. Anyone who says, "it's just a game" is missing the point.

I do not expect that to convince anyone to change their mind, but it does show there is a fundamental disconnect between the sides on this issue.  Either it is just a game or it isn't and that is a big chasm to cross.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Hoax
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Reply #255 on: April 19, 2006, 12:50:32 PM

I'd like to apologize for ever being involved in this stupid thread.  I blame the fact that 90% of the time you people are talking about pvp your being self-righteous fuckheads.  Obviously I became hyper-sensitive or something, my bad.

That said, I was being as unreasonable as Haemish was in the gay guild advertising thread.  So I apologize for my idiotic ramblings.

A combination of boobies (thanks Samwise) and cute (thanks Lantyssa) plus just re-reading some of this stuff has made it clear that I wasn't really ever disagreeing with anyone.  In fact the whole "debate" isn't really one at all.  The only debatable point is what the appropriate level of scorn for this particular act of griefing should be.  Which really is a stupid question to talk about, there are online personalty quizzes that could provide more entertainment.  This isn't VN just let it go folks.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
schild
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Reply #256 on: April 19, 2006, 12:51:40 PM

Anyone who says it's "not just a game" has got too much cheetoh powder on his hands. It is just a game. If you can't compartmentalize this sort of shit, then you eventually get worked up over shit like "player funeral ambushed." The players and their communities can jump from one GAME to ANOTHER in the blink of an eye. F13 does it with every game. F13 is a community. A game is a game. We may play a game, but it's certainly not why the community exists. As for a service? Ok, but the service is just the money making format in which they choose to keep the game running. And as for the world. Ok, whatever. That's just masturbatory bullshit. Raph knows damn well that the world is just the format in which he or whoever chooses to present the game.

At the end of the day, you wacked some foozles, beat a boss, got an item, and logged out. From the game. Now, I will grant this - the game exists to facilitate the world, communities and the service. But everything that happens in the game because of the game and through the game makes it part of the game. Like the funeral ambush.
Lantyssa
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Reply #257 on: April 19, 2006, 12:57:01 PM

So you're one of those that misses the point then? :-D

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
schild
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Reply #258 on: April 19, 2006, 01:02:48 PM

Yea, I completely miss the point of these games. I form fake forum communities with people I talk to OUTSIDE of games to make those games more life invading. Huzzah.
Calantus
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Reply #259 on: April 19, 2006, 01:04:34 PM

Depends how you mean "it's not just a game". If you mean the actual game is more than simply a game... yeah, I'd agree with you there. But often "it's not just a game" is used to shoot down silly arguments relying on the idea that since you are playing a game you can do whatever the hell you want just because "it's just a game". In that sense it IS more than a game, it's a medium for interacting with other people. If you interact with people in a negative way (ie. grief), the fact that the medium happens to be a game is irrelevant.
Nebu
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Reply #260 on: April 19, 2006, 01:55:52 PM

Anyone who says it's "not just a game" has got too much cheetoh powder on his hands. It is just a game. If you can't compartmentalize this sort of shit, then you eventually get worked up over shit like "player funeral ambushed."

You play mmog's as a console game.  Other people play mmog's as a chatroom with a 3d interface.  I would argue that you're overcompartmentalizing as you fail to recognize that a portion of the playerbase sees mmog's as more of a social outlet than a game.  If you consider that many people play mmog's more for the social aspects of the game than the in-game mechanics themselves, you'll begin to understand why shit like this pisses people off.

Note: I'm not saying that this event thing pissed me off, it didn't.  I think both parties could have done things to avoid the situation and share blame for different reasons.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2006, 01:58:17 PM by Nebu »

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Telemediocrity
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Reply #261 on: April 19, 2006, 03:54:42 PM

Anyone who says it's "not just a game" has got too much cheetoh powder on his hands. It is just a game. If you can't compartmentalize this sort of shit, then you eventually get worked up over shit like "player funeral ambushed."

You play mmog's as a console game.  Other people play mmog's as a chatroom with a 3d interface.  I would argue that you're overcompartmentalizing as you fail to recognize that a portion of the playerbase sees mmog's as more of a social outlet than a game.  If you consider that many people play mmog's more for the social aspects of the game than the in-game mechanics themselves, you'll begin to understand why shit like this pisses people off.

Well, which of us is 'right' in how we play the game?  If we automatically defer to the most sensitive player, that means his views take supremacy and are arbitrarily considered 'right'.  So how do we judge?

We judge by having devs, devs that set the game rules and game priorities and the CoC and the EULA and all the rest of that jazz.

They're the arbiters of what the game is and isn't.  I enjoy playing MMOs as a console game with better AI.  If a dev doesn't want me to play it that way, they have every right (and the responsibility) to write that into the CoC.

Maybe the people upset about this shouldn't be playing WoW? You're not just paying for the parts you like - you're paying for the whole thing, warts and all.
Nebu
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Reply #262 on: April 19, 2006, 04:05:34 PM

[Well, which of us is 'right' in how we play the game?  If we automatically defer to the most sensitive player, that means his views take supremacy and are arbitrarily considered 'right'.  So how do we judge?

We judge by having devs, devs that set the game rules and game priorities and the CoC and the EULA and all the rest of that jazz.

They're the arbiters of what the game is and isn't.  I enjoy playing MMOs as a console game with better AI.  If a dev doesn't want me to play it that way, they have every right (and the responsibility) to write that into the CoC.

Maybe the people upset about this shouldn't be playing WoW? You're not just paying for the parts you like - you're paying for the whole thing, warts and all.

There is no "right" way to play.  That's the beauty of the genre.  This also means that situations like this will arise where contrasting playstyles collide.  It's not a black & white issue, but rather a gray area. 

I think that being "upset" is more a reaction of disappointment in human nature.  We are all in control of our actions and have the free will to decide how we will act at any given moment.  The people that enjoy the social aspects of mmog's are far more often disappointed as the people that get their fun at the expense of others often hide behind in-game mechanics as their excuse for being an asshat.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2006, 01:19:14 AM by Nebu »

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
HaemishM
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Reply #263 on: April 20, 2006, 09:23:21 AM

Well, which of us is 'right' in how we play the game?  If we automatically defer to the most sensitive player, that means his views take supremacy and are arbitrarily considered 'right'.  So how do we judge?

Well, see, Human Beings have these feelings, feelings like mourning over the death of a friend. Human beings generally don't need to be told that cluster bombing a sacred ritual such as a funeral is a bad, hurtful thing to do.

Sociopaths have to be told this, and have to be donkey punched when they ignore it just to get their jollies.

Telemediocrity
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Reply #264 on: April 20, 2006, 09:40:26 AM

Well, which of us is 'right' in how we play the game?  If we automatically defer to the most sensitive player, that means his views take supremacy and are arbitrarily considered 'right'.  So how do we judge?

Well, see, Human Beings have these feelings, feelings like mourning over the death of a friend. Human beings generally don't need to be told that cluster bombing a sacred ritual such as a funeral is a bad, hurtful thing to do.

Sociopaths have to be told this, and have to be donkey punched when they ignore it just to get their jollies.

Human societies also have these 'guidelines'.  For instance, most people don't have to be told that a true 'funeral' is something that happens in the real world, and what happens ingame is not.

A MMO 'world' is not a counterpart for the real one, and you cannot simply hold events in them, such as weddings or funerals, that correspond to the sanctity involved.  I wouldn't suggest holding your son's birthday party on a WoW PvP server either, as much as someone would be a dick if they busted up your birthday party in real life.

If RL events can be moved into the MMO space and exist in 'the same way', what's to stop weddings, funerals, birthdays, religious services, etc etc from crowding the game world that was meant for, uh, a game?
HaemishM
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Reply #265 on: April 20, 2006, 09:42:53 AM

A MMO 'world' is not a counterpart for the real one, and you cannot simply hold events in them, such as weddings or funerals, that correspond to the sanctity involved.  I wouldn't suggest holding your son's birthday party on a WoW PvP server either, as much as someone would be a dick if they busted up your birthday party in real life.

Why not, exactly? Because they don't involve flesh? As the techonology for online interaction grows, so does the general public's familiarity and use of it. I'm not saying that they have to be the exact same, I am saying that as player events, they should at least be given some respect.

But again, sociopaths of all types cannot recognize respect for other people, no matter the venue.

Telemediocrity
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Reply #266 on: April 20, 2006, 09:46:34 AM

It's not about "not recognizing people, no matter the venue", it's about having some venue, in this case, MMOs, where we mutually agree to not recognize other people.  I have no problem with recognizing people as unique and beautiful snowflakes, I just don't want to have to do it in every single venue - hence, why MMOs exist.

What's to stop every single MMO from turning into glorified IRC, then?
Nebu
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Reply #267 on: April 20, 2006, 09:53:16 AM

What's to stop every single MMO from turning into glorified IRC, then?

Who's to say it isn't that already?

There exists a body of academic work on online communities.  There also exists a portion of the playerbase that sees it this way.  I've always stated that mmogs are little more than chat rooms with a 3d interface and some shiny.  It's all perspective.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2006, 09:55:00 AM by Nebu »

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
HaemishM
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Reply #268 on: April 20, 2006, 09:56:18 AM

It's not about "not recognizing people, no matter the venue", it's about having some venue, in this case, MMOs, where we mutually agree to not recognize other people.  I have no problem with recognizing people as unique and beautiful snowflakes, I just don't want to have to do it in every single venue - hence, why MMOs exist.

That's your fucking problem. Just because you don't want to recognize them in this venue does not mean they aren't there. That's the sociopathic part of it. You just put your fingers in your ears and go "LALALALALALA YOU DON'T EXIST! LALALALA AZZRAP0R!!1!"

That's fucking retarded. It doesn't matter what "venue" it is, IF THE PEOPLE EXIST IN SAID VENUE, YOU HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THEM. You are essentially saying "I don't have to recognize them, but they have to recognize me when I assrape them."

You are a fucking tool.

Valmorian
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Reply #269 on: April 20, 2006, 09:59:32 AM

It's not about "not recognizing people, no matter the venue", it's about having some venue, in this case, MMOs, where we mutually agree to not recognize other people.

That would be great if it WAS a mutual recognition.  Obviously it isn't, since there are people treating these games as more than "just a game".  How can you possibly think that there is a mutual agreement not to recognize other people when we have a prime example of people doing EXACTLY that thing by holding this funeral?
Strazos
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Reply #270 on: April 20, 2006, 10:09:02 AM

I can't tell if he's trolling or just a fucking moron sometimes.


I'm guessing it's both today.

Fear the Backstab!
"Plato said the virtuous man is at all times ready for a grammar snake attack." - we are lesion
"Hell is other people." -Sartre
voblat
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Reply #271 on: April 20, 2006, 10:11:39 AM

It's not about "not recognizing people, no matter the venue", it's about having some venue, in this case, MMOs, where we mutually agree to not recognize other people.

That would be great if it WAS a mutual recognition.  Obviously it isn't, since there are people treating these games as more than "just a game".  How can you possibly think that there is a mutual agreement not to recognize other people when we have a prime example of people doing EXACTLY that thing by holding this funeral?


Because the only way to justify such behaviour is to deny anyone else feels differently.
Miasma
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Stopgap Measure


Reply #272 on: April 20, 2006, 10:44:48 AM

MMOs, where we mutually agree to not recognize other people.
Let me assure you that any twisted, putrid thoughts that bubble up from that sociopathic mind of yours are not mutually agreed upon.
WayAbvPar
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Reply #273 on: April 20, 2006, 10:45:22 AM

I can't tell if he's trolling or just a fucking moron sometimes.


I'm guessing it's both today.

I can't believe that someone is THAT fucking stupid, so I am guessing it is just trolling. Parents were too busy with their ninja careers to pay attention to junior, so he does anything he can for attention.

Either way it is getting really fucking old.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

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Telemediocrity
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Reply #274 on: April 20, 2006, 10:50:42 AM

What's to stop every single MMO from turning into glorified IRC, then?

Who's to say it isn't that already?

Some MMOs are, but I don't find that fun so I don't play them. ;p

Quote
That would be great if it WAS a mutual recognition.  Obviously it isn't, since there are people treating these games as more than "just a game".  How can you possibly think that there is a mutual agreement not to recognize other people when we have a prime example of people doing EXACTLY that thing by holding this funeral?

The mutual agreement is the CoC.  Once we enter the game, that's the binding agreement we've settled upon to arbitrate our interactions with one another.

Edit:  The best comparison I'd make is CounterStrike.  When you join a server, there are a set of rules laid down by the server admins (as well as more basic ground rules laid down by the Valve devs) that you're playing within.

I'm sorry if the phrase "mutual agreement" was vague and thus led you all to interperet it as "They like getting azzraped".  Of course people aren't generally a big fan of that - I'm saying they're getting what they signed up for when they put their name on the dotted line, even if they didn't read the proverbial Fine Print.

 
« Last Edit: April 20, 2006, 10:55:47 AM by Telemediocrity »
voblat
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Reply #275 on: April 20, 2006, 10:59:58 AM



The mutual agreement is the CoC.  Once we enter the game, that's the binding agreement we've settled upon to arbitrate our interactions with one another.

Edit:  The best comparison I'd make is CounterStrike.  When you join a server, there are a set of rules laid down by the server admins (as well as more basic ground rules laid down by the Valve devs) that you're playing within.

I'm sorry if the phrase "mutual agreement" was vague and thus led you all to interperet it as "They like getting azzraped".  Of course people aren't generally a big fan of that - I'm saying they're getting what they signed up for when they put their name on the dotted line, even if they didn't read the proverbial Fine Print.

 

I've yet to see a ToC that states 'you will take nothing in game personally, nor form binding friendships' , which is what you are suggesting.


I guess any form of common sense goes out the window when you try to justify being an asshole.
Telemediocrity
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Reply #276 on: April 20, 2006, 11:08:08 AM

Quote
I've yet to see a ToC that states 'you will take nothing in game personally, nor form binding friendships' , which is what you are suggesting.

It doesn't mean that you shouldn't take anything ingame personally - it means that if you do, and that makes you unhappy, it's basically your own doing and you have yourself to blame.  If you form binding friendships in a video game, with someone you've never met, and you get backstabbed using ingame mechanics - whose fault is that?

Has there ever been a funeral successfully held by ships in Eve's 0.0 space who came in unarmed?

I'm not the asshole - the assholes are people who want to ruin MMOs by turning them into some sort of online neighborhood, perhaps to make up for whatever gaping holes are in their social life in their real neighborhood.

Some of us play games to be playing a game, not to be a musclebound stud warrior instead of a fat kid with too much facial hair and a love of anime.  Fuck you very much for trying to burden that experience with all the mental energy sinks involved in forming a community and taking everyone's thoughts and feelings and what have you into account.  If that shit wasn't tiring in the real world, we wouldn't have games like CS or WoW for escapism in the first place.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2006, 11:10:35 AM by Telemediocrity »
voblat
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Reply #277 on: April 20, 2006, 11:14:37 AM

Quote
I've yet to see a ToC that states 'you will take nothing in game personally, nor form binding friendships' , which is what you are suggesting.

It doesn't mean that you shouldn't take anything ingame personally - it means that if you do, and that makes you unhappy, it's basically your own doing and you have yourself to blame.  If you form binding friendships in a video game, with someone you've never met, and you get backstabbed using ingame mechanics - whose fault is that?

Has there ever been a funeral successfully held by ships in Eve's 0.0 space who came in unarmed?

I'm not the asshole - the assholes are people who want to ruin MMOs by turning them into some sort of online neighborhood, perhaps to make up for whatever gaping holes are in their social life in their real neighborhood.

Some of us play games to be playing a game, not to be a musclebound stud warrior instead of a fat kid with too much facial hair and a love of anime.

Ok straw man, you made a statement.
You said we all mutually agree to ignore the fact there are other people in the game, and the rules of normal social interaction dont apply.
You back this up with 'the ToC states it'.
being as 90% of ToC on any MMO is about the rules of interaction with other people, I have to ask.
Are you a pathalogical liar, or just retarded?

Now, please, back up the statement. Find an article in ANY games ToC that speifically states everyone logging in mutually agrees to act as if no other people are there.

Of course, your pathetic ramblings fail at the first hurdle, being as one of the first sections of any ToC is about use of foul and abusive language, to other players no less.
Telemediocrity
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Reply #278 on: April 20, 2006, 11:16:58 AM

Quote
You said we all mutually agree to ignore the fact there are other people in the game, and the rules of normal social interaction dont apply.
You back this up with 'the ToC states it'.
being as 90% of ToC on any MMO is about the rules of interaction with other people, I have to ask.
Are you a pathalogical liar, or just retarded?

You're an idiot.  The point is not whether people "are" or "aren't" there, the point is whether or not you deal with characters played by other people as you would in RL, or by an alternate 'ruleset'.  That's what the CoC is: It's an alternate ruleset that allows you to set aside the normal rules and mores of human interaction.
voblat
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Reply #279 on: April 20, 2006, 11:27:29 AM

Quote
You said we all mutually agree to ignore the fact there are other people in the game, and the rules of normal social interaction dont apply.
You back this up with 'the ToC states it'.
being as 90% of ToC on any MMO is about the rules of interaction with other people, I have to ask.
Are you a pathalogical liar, or just retarded?

You're an idiot.  The point is not whether people "are" or "aren't" there, the point is whether or not you deal with characters played by other people as you would in RL, or by an alternate 'ruleset'.  That's what the CoC is: It's an alternate ruleset that allows you to set aside the normal rules and mores of human interaction.

You have never read a ToC. I can tell that simply because you beleive it to mean normal rules of human interaction do not apply.
90% of any mmo toc is about human interaction and enforcement of said rules.

If you are correct, and normal interaction doesnt apply, why are there rules about foul and abusive language? They are, just so you know, over and above any language filter (which is the legal requirement for age restrictive content)

People have been calling you a sociopath, which I beleive is incorrect, you are socially retarded however, the clue is in the last sentence , in that you genuinely beleive normal rules of human interaction can ever, in any circumstance, be forgotten , when dealing with other people.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2006, 11:39:12 AM by voblat »
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