I'm beginning to hate my sister...

[Big Gulp]

Okay, hate is too strong of a word.  Be annoyed by, and avoid, are probably better terms.

Here's the deal.  My older sister had a drinking problem for about 10 years.  Around 2 years ago she joined AA and now SHE WON'T FUCKING SHUT UP ABOUT IT.  She's going out with a guy who quit his electrician job to become a substance abuse counselor, she feels the compulsive need to tell me how long she's been sober every time I talk to her on the phone.  The last time she visited me (when I hadn't seen her in four years, btw) she gave me a disapproving look because I had (gasp!) a 12 pack of Bud Lite in my fridge.

Honestly, I love her, I want her to stay off the sauce, but I just can't stand talking to her anymore.  Strangely enough, I didn't grow up with her, but we lived together for 3 years when I was stationed in Colorado Springs and I grew closer to her than I did the brother and sister I did grow up with.  Anyone have any suggestions on dealing with an AA zealot?

[Telemediocrity]

Explain to her that alcohol is still ruling her life, just in a different way.

[Big Gulp]

Explain to her that alcohol is still ruling her life, just in a different way.

I wish I could, man, but to be honest I just wind up gritting my teeth, because I really don't want to be some prick who sabotages and undermines her staying sober, because she definitely needed to get sober.  But Jesus, she's like a cult member now.  I've known Jehovah's Witnesses and Scientologists who are less hung up on their kooky bullshit than she is.  This is pretty much her reason for being now, and I just don't really feel like talking to her anymore.

[Telemediocrity]

I hate to be all impersonal about this because it's your sister, and it's clearly someone you're close with, but at some point you have to draw the dividing line - looking into what you know of her, her past, her potential, is it possible for her to not be either batshit on one end of the spectrum or batshit on the other?

If it's not, keeping her at a distance is probably all you can do.

If it's possible, then it comes down to finding a plan to slowly ease her into the idea that she's in control of her own actions, and that moderation is possible.

Of course, moderation is nice in theory yet a bitch in practice.  Case in point: I'm posting here right now. Blah.

Consider introducing her to meditation.  Not the hippie new age shit, just straight up, mind-clearing meditation.  Things that will slow her mind, make her more introspective, make her think more before she speaks.  Alcohol is simply the object; what you're talking about involves more deeper, interlinked aspects of one's personality, such as a propensity for addiction, a propensity for extremes, excessively focused attention.  Remove those root causes, and the alcohol issue is swept away that much easier.

What you're essentially asking is, "Should I change someone or just not be around them anymore".  That someone is your sister, and so it's a shitty position to be in.  Changing people is hard work, but it is possible.

My best advice:  If you do try something, ask a lot of questions, make very few statements.  If she does change for the better, it'll be drawing on something within her, not something pushed on her from without.  Your goal is to lead her to that.  The only semi-reliable way to pull that off is to make her think.

[Lantyssa]

I'm ... going to have to kind of agree with Tele here.

A lot of people turn AA and staying sober into a religion.  It is great that your sister is doing well with it, but obsessing over the fact is not healthy either (although better than the alternative).  I could even see arguments that she is not really over alcohol, she just uses the safety net of AA to keep her from drinking.  When she no longer has to think about it in any fashion she will truly be over it.  (Which may never come.  Disorders suck like that.)  That is something she needs to figure out for herself though, so you are probably wise not to push the issue.

What you can try, if you think it would not upset her, is say something along the lines of, "Sis, it is great that you are taking care of yourself.  I know you are strong enough to remain sober so you do not have to let me know every time we speak.  I want to know about the things you ARE doing."  Maybe you feel you cannot say something like that because it will hurt your relationship, but if you are getting to the point you never wish to speak to her, can it hurt?

If you do try to try to tell her and it goes badly, apologize for not fully understanding the depths of her pain that let you be so callous, and don't bring it up again... 

[schild]

Seen that Southpark about Kyle's dad thinking AA is a cult? It is.

I wish I were joking. One of my friends talks about addiction like he'd gotten a purple heart in 'nam.

[WindupAtheist]

Punch her in the face.

[Mr_PeaCH]

I hear what you're saying and I know how annoying that sort of thing can be.  The moreso because it is coming from a relative or close friend.  Just above all, remember this.  She needs your support.  And if that means swallowing your tongue and nodding and smiling blithely some of the time then just do the right thing and come around and bitch about it to us like you're doing now.

Lantyssa's advise is very solid... if you think it won't rock her world just sort of mention to her how it's all she seems to be capable of talking about (albeit in a nice, maybe even joking sort of way).  You say she's been into it for 2 years?  There's sort a a tipping point at around that length of time.  Either they sort of ease up and normalize or they become completely engulfed.  So if it's any help my thought is not to completely write her off yet; she may come to her senses of her own accord.

Don't get me wrong, I've got no love of the 12 steps and I've not felt the need to sucumb to that sort of thing myself.  But ultimately, for someone who the alternative seems to be a non-functioning alchy or druggie, it might actually be saving her life.  And yeah, I've known many people who were otherwise and altogether getting their act together but they couldn't shake the 12 step program so go figure.

[Evangolis]

I've been sober since 1985.  Before I was sober, I thought about doing drugs every day.  Since I've been sober, I think about doing drugs every day.

It is like religion.  Addiction is constant, and powerful and pervades every aspect of your life.  Anything that fights it has to do the same.

I've never gone for the AA philosophy, myself, but I do think that the disease is worse than the cure in this case.  And I do understand the need to confess and confront your addiction.  Being an addict is all about lying to yourself, and hiding what you are.  Being a bit boring, and offering too much information is common when you are in recovery, but it beats the alternative.

Does any of this make things easier for you?  Probably not.  But try focusing on what you can control.  Why does your sister's obsession with something that is essential to her survival and central to her life bother you?  Not that there is something wrong with being bothered, but there is something there that matters to you enough that you are willing to give up someone you care about because of it, and it would probably be in your interest to know more about what that something is.

[Llava]

Addiction is constant, and powerful and pervades every aspect of your life.  Anything that fights it has to do the same.

Basically what I was going to say.  If she's a hardcore addict, like has the gene that causes addiction, then moderation is not an option for her.  She has to focus on something productive, and she's doing that now.  So yeah, a lot of times she'll forget herself and not realize exactly what she's doing.  But she's a person, talk to her about it.  Something to the effect of, "I'm proud you've dealt with your problem, but it's not a problem I share."

[Engels]

Having had relatives go into AA, the 'all I can talk about is AA and how its saving my life' thing is a phase. It can last a week, or 3 years. I know its a total pain in the neck and drives everyone nuts, but basically what's being said between the lines is "I'm not sure I'm going to make it, so I am telling everyone about this one good thing so maybe I will compromise myself into remaining sober". It'll pass once she realises that no matter how much she talks about AA, the demon is still within her to wrestle with.

Sadly, alcoholism is a lonely battle since it is so physiological in nature. The psychological component is often overemphasized and folks forget that alcoholics are physically different in their entire metabolism. You can argue wether or not its an actual genetic disease, but what you can't argue is that an alcoholic's chemistry is so screwed up that their bodies are a whole different echosystem than 'regular folks' bodies.

[Llava]

"They say alcoholism's a disease, but it's like the only disease you can get yelled at for havin'.

'Dammit, Otto, you're an alcoholic!'
'Dammit, Otto, you have lupus!'

One of these does not sound right."

-Mitch Hedberg

[Ironwood]

Just popping my head in to say :

If it's truly addiction, then moderation is NOT possible.  For an alcoholic, there's no such thing as one drink.  Those who say there is are merely waiting till the next relapse.

Good luck to your sister, Gulp, no matter how much she's hacking you off.  Living without alcohol would hurt me.  Living without caffeine would literally kill me.

:)

[Tebonas]

The disease is that of being an addictive personality, being an alcoholic is just one of the more common forms of expressions of that.

But not every addictive personality is an alcoholic, and not every alcoholic is and addictive personality.

This oversimplification is potentially dangerous! It can be taken as doing nothing against alcoholism because its beyond ones control.

[Llava]

But not every addictive personality is an alcoholic

Which is why we have the phrase, "catass".

[Tebonas]

Or "endorphin junky"(extreme athlets) and "workaholic".

The two generally accepted (and even encouraged) avenues for an addictive personality.

[Signe]

Maybe she's still a wee bit insecure about her recovery and needs to zeal out to help convince herself.  It's probably not the greatest time in her life to be made to feel foolish about how she copes.  Since she doesn't live with you and you don't see her constantly, how big of a sacrifice could it be to give her the time to fix her head?  Shessh... it's only been two years.  You're not big on things like compassion and support, are you?  Oh well... you should probably do what WUA said... it's faster and you are immediately gratified by the meaty crunch sound.

I was going to call you a selfish prick but I thought that since you were asking for advice, it would be unkind.

[Ironwood]

I differentiate between an addictive personality and someone who is actually an addict.

But that's hair splitting of the 'nth' degree and I don't want to get into it.

:)

[Tebonas]

Indeed, you can't help having an addictive personality. But being an actual addict is somewhat your doing. A good differentiation.

[Dren]

Only the addict can change.

Changing is extremely hard.

A good friend of mine died of it almost one year ago and left a wife and 2 year old daughter behind.  My wife and I do what we can to help them, emotionally and financially.

He had a blood disorder that made drinking toxic.  He had a brain disease that made him like drinking.  In the end, he knew both of these things.  In the end, it didn't matter. (AA didn't work for him)

1/5 of vodka = dead two days later.

AA kook?  Much better alternative.

[Big Gulp]

Since she doesn't live with you and you don't see her constantly, how big of a sacrifice could it be to give her the time to fix her head?  Shessh... it's only been two years.  You're not big on things like compassion and support, are you?  Oh well... you should probably do what WUA said... it's faster and you are immediately gratified by the meaty crunch sound.

How about if you take your self righteous bullshit and go fuck yourself, mmkay?

I've said nothing to my sister about any of this.  Every time she brings it up (which is constantly) I intone the usual statement of, "That's great, hon".  Of course secretly in my head I'm screaming, "Shut the hell up about it, already!".  Hence, my dread of talking to her nowadays; it's addiction-talk 24/7.  Everything in her life revolves around it like she's a cult member and considering that when she does want to talk it's for periods of a half hour to 45 minutes at a time.  That's more time than I afford anyone else on the phone, by the way.

To get to the point, I was asking for advice from anyone that may have been in a similar situation.  So far the best advice I've heard is from Engels, about this being a phase.  I surely hope so.  In the meantime, I'd appreciate not putting up with your holier than thou crap when I'm venting to the board at large and not to my sister.

[tazelbain]

You're are being a major dumbass if you think this a good place to have serious dicussion about your personal issues.  The fact that you are touchy about the subject means you shouldn't have posted it.

[Big Gulp]

You're are being a major dumbass if you think this a good place to have serious dicussion about your personal issues.  The fact that you are touchy about the subject means you shouldn't have posted it.

Yeah, that's probably right on the mark.

[Signe]

I'm not being holier than thou.  My father is an alcoholic who never got any treatment at all.  Now he's a recluse and has driven himself crazy because he feels guilty thinking that his cruel behaviour killed my mother.  It didn't kill her but it didn't make her life happy at the end, either.   I just believe not stifling your critcism while she might still be fragile is mean.  It's not like it really hurts you, is it?  It probably helps her to be a bit over the top with it.   

[Merusk]

He loves his sister so he tolerates it.

But, being human and not a Saint, he still needs to get it out.. so he came here and bitched a bit.  Not as much as he needed to, since he decided lashing out for one of Signe's usual Signe-like responses was a good idea, but hey, he's Human.

Anywho, everyone else already mentioned the whole "Addicts just find something else to be addicted to.." theory.. so all I can offer to the thread is.  Boobies.

[schild]

Quote from: schild on April 04, 2006, 02:41:45 PMI spent my high school and college years in retail. Just under a decade of retail to be exact. I'm not sure I can go back to that

Sounds like you're being awfully fussy for someone with no qualifications.  Open a paper, look for trades work.  Painting, framing, roofing, etc.  Maybe there's a machine shop in your area willing to take on a newbie.

If those choices sound too physical, and you apparently can't go back to retail then I'd say your motivation to work isn't sufficiently developed.

Sounds like you're being awfully fussy for someone with no addiction. Talk to your sister, tell her the problem. Any way you can help her through all of this is better for the both of you.

I'd say your compassion isn't sufficiently developed.

I like you Gulp, but you know what they say, don't dish it if you can't take it. Signe was in the right with her response. Getting testy about it is immature and foolish.

[Engels]

I'm sorry, but having been in a 'recovery group' and meeting someone who just couldn't stfu about their personal journey of 'recovery', I know exactly how Gulp is feeling, and if you've not had someone yammer on and on and on about recovery for weeks at a time any time you've met them, especially when you yourself are having to deal with issues related to their recovery (I'm sure Gulp has been affected personally by her alcoholism) it can rub you raw real fucking quick.

We're not talking short temper here, we're not talking a lack of compassions. We're talking a form of chinese water torture that's gotta be experienced to understand. So ya'll giving Gulp a hard time for not being 'understanding', trust me, the man understands all too fucking well. Day in, and day out, he's understanding. The fookin record has a groove all the way to the other side by now, trust me, i've been there.

[Ironwood]

I'm married.  I know all about someone who keeps yammering and won't shut up.  Gulp has my sympathy at least.

[eldaec]

Maybe she's still a wee bit insecure about her recovery and needs to zeal out to help convince herself.  It's probably not the greatest time in her life to be made to feel foolish about how she copes.  Since she doesn't live with you and you don't see her constantly, how big of a sacrifice could it be to give her the time to fix her head? 

I'm married.  I know all about someone who keeps yammering and won't shut up.  Gulp has my sympathy at least.

What they both said.

And sounding off on irrelevant message boards is probably a better way for Gulp to go than driving his sister back to drink, or you know, punching her in the face; so hurrah for that.

[Murgos]

Meh, dealing with holier than thou religious zealots is difficult at the best of times.  Dealing with johnny come lately holier than thou religious zealots who are family members whom you've seen at thier worst moments is a test that no 'normal' person should have to undergo.

[Signe]

I probably shouldn't have almost called Big Gulp a prick... that was my inner bitch talking.  If she were a religious zealot, my advice would have been completely different and would have contained interesting ways to annoy her.  I do know what it's like to have someone yammering at you zealously about recovery.  I have a relative who was a heroin addict for years and years and did that to everyone.  It drove me to the point of distraction.  However, the thought he would start using again was more scary.  It took him much more than two years to settle down though... it seems to me that it was more like five or six years before he seemed to really come to terms with everything.  I would probably never mention that I smoke pot to him because it would probably set him off.  The ensuing lecture would likely kill me.  I stopped smoking last May and I still crave a ciggie every minute of every day, just about.  I don't feel like zealing out at people who are smoking, however... I just want to murder them in some hideous manner and steal their cigarettes.

Anyway, I'm sorry I touched Big Gulp in a bad place.  He knows I would never seriously try and hurt his feelings.

[Big Gulp]

Anyway, I'm sorry I touched Big Gulp in a bad place.  He knows I would never seriously try and hurt his feelings.

Damned right.  It's my special purpose, and my mother told me that some day I'd find out what it was there for.

[Llava]

interesting ways to annoy her.

I am intrigued by your thoughts and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

[sinij]

You can make her STFU about staying sober by getting her back on booze - shouldn't be hard, invite her to your place and pour her a drink while having one, chances are she will cave in. There are no ex-alcoholics.

[Llava]

You can make her STFU about staying sober by getting her back on booze - shouldn't be hard, invite her to your place and pour her a drink while having one, chances are she will cave in. There are no ex-alcoholics.

But then he has to spend money on getting her booze.

No, the best solution is WUA's "Punch her in the [fucking] face."