Raids: What are the dynamics?

[Simond]

Question for you.

How do you talk so much shit about all these games when you don't have any idea how any of them actually work?

His title is there for a reason.

[neoarchaic]

Personally it's always irritated me how aggro works in most mmorpgs.  Having played loads of single player rpg's when I was a kid and having played PnP DnD plenty the concept of "pulling" mobs always struck me as kind of dumb.  And the larger the group the more retarded I find it to be.  In DnD I would say the general rule was that once you entered a room or an encounter you then had to deal with all the adversaries who were in that immediate environment.  The only way you would normally draw more is if you set off an alarm, made to much noise etc...  I think in DnD you wouldn't normally get killed from drawing to much "aggro" but more often from wandering into or picking a bad fight.  Now since this was DnD every DM played it differently and some were pretty brutal and others focused on allowing the group good chances to succeed while keeping things challenging.  Obviously no online game can easily accomplish that. 

Really I think aggro control comes down to how many mobs you are able to take on yourself.  In games were the number is one, maybe two, aggro usually consists of pulling one mob, but in games like Diablo II (not an MMORPG I realize, but an online RPG none the less) you would have packs of monsters on just one person, so aggro control wasn't so much an issue. 

I don't seem to remember Guild War's PvE feeling to wrong when it came to aggro either, though I've not PvE'd since that game came out.

And in a large group environment I don't mind playing the healer but I think most people either get burned out on it or end up just not having so much fun because when your healing you tend to not notice what's going on so much visually and pretty much have your eyes glued to the health bars on your screen.  Which is another thing I like in CoV because my Fire/Dark corruptor can heal (and has to be mindful of positioning to do so) while engaged in the action.

I can't really offer any comments on raiding though as I'm not a raider and have only ever been on a couple.  I do think that raiding seems to me to really be a distilled form/exacerbation of a games general group mechanics, which is why I think the roles tend to be so defined in that context.

[Lantyssa]

Depended on the MUD.

Circle muds and ROMs that I played, mobs attacked the first person in the room list.  Lots of Circles and ROMs added in "Rescue" and "Heroic Rescue" skills that you could get as warrior classes.  These would grab whoever you named and "pull" them behind you, so you were the one getting beat-on instead.  This only worked one mob at a time, though, so you'd have to rescue multiple times if there was more than one aggressive mob in the room, or if one wandered in while you were fighting.

A lot of MUD admins would add-in tougher mobiles with specials or uber equipment or jacked-up stats for players to have a challenge.  However, most MUDs were so unsophisticated that it was just a question of attrition.  Would your HP or the MOBs go down quicker. Party members were only there to increase damage-done or keep your Tank's health higher.

Ours was a heavily modified DIKU with a similar system for aggro.

Anyone in the room could be a valid initial target, unless stealth kept them from being seen.  Once engaged that person remained the tank unless they fled or someone rescued them.  Later on our Shadowmages got a doppelganger spell that created a low-hp dupilicate that would take their place.  Some specials would let casters pick a random target.  I added one or two others that let them switch targets during combat, such as a counter-move that would possibly throw a stunner out of the room (usually the tank since they wanted to stun-lock the mob).

For the most part though, once someone had aggro they kept it until dead.

[UD_Delt]

Update:

We managed to beat Vyemm on Monday. Took about 8 or 9 more tries and we were on our last attempt before everyone's armor finally gave out but we got the bastard.

It turned out to be a matter of positioning and timing. We ended up going healer heavy and using multiple tanks to control the aggro and mem-wipe issues. It took a bit of luck and a lot of teamwork but he eventually died.

We now have one more zone to beat (Deathtoll) which we don't even have access to yet. It's been hard to motivate people for the 20+ some hours we're going to need to raid-farm to get access. The farm zone (Ascent of the Awakened) is the most boring god-awful piece of shit zone I've ever seen. No names to kill, no worthwhile loot drops, mobs with millions of HP's (takes about 5 minutes per encounter with a full raid force with no risk of dying), etc... I would like to kick the zone designer squarely in the nuts. I'm not even sure 20 hours will do it as we've only gotten one (out of four) eyes so far after about 6 hours of farming, not to mention you have the risk of failing the eye-spawned encounter which means you get to do it over again after farming another fucking eye.

[Nebu]

Update:

We managed to beat Vyemm on Monday. Took about 8 or 9 more tries and we were on our last attempt before everyone's armor finally gave out but we got the bastard.

It turned out to be a matter of positioning and timing. We ended up going healer heavy and using multiple tanks to control the aggro and mem-wipe issues. It took a bit of luck and a lot of teamwork but he eventually died.

We now have one more zone to beat (Deathtoll) which we don't even have access to yet. It's been hard to motivate people for the 20+ some hours we're going to need to raid-farm to get access. The farm zone (Ascent of the Awakened) is the most boring god-awful piece of shit zone I've ever seen. No names to kill, no worthwhile loot drops, mobs with millions of HP's (takes about 5 minutes per encounter with a full raid force with no risk of dying), etc... I would like to kick the zone designer squarely in the nuts. I'm not even sure 20 hours will do it as we've only gotten one (out of four) eyes so far after about 6 hours of farming, not to mention you have the risk of failing the eye-spawned encounter which means you get to do it over again after farming another fucking eye.

When you describe it like that... it all sounds like fun!

For all of this time invested you get what... a 5% better piece of gear?  I really hate raid endgames. 

[UD_Delt]

This was a long raid given that we are still in learning mode and make a lot of mistakes. Total time was about 3.5 hours. Once we have it down we should be able to roll through in about 2 hours.

To get an idea of value of the raid you have to know the DKP system. We earn 1 DKP point per hour of raid. You can then bid DKP on drops for your main only and only if you are at that raid. Minimum bid on a fabled (highest tier) item is 5 dkp. If no one bids on an item it goes into the guild bank and other guild members not on the raid can then bid on the item again with a 5dkp min. If no one bids it out of the guild bank it is then sold within guild for guild bank cash (for non-raiding members), then finally sold outside of guild for cash.

During this raid we got about 4 or 5 crap loot drops that went to the guild bank. Another 6 or 7 nice drops that went for around the minimum (5) DKP including a few that were VERY nice that went at the minimum because they were class specific and only one class was on the raid. About 5 that went for a decent few DKP (12-20 range). And finally 2 items that went for 20+ including the boss mob drop that went for 45.

To determine if a raid was worthwhile you compare the DKP earned to DKP spent. 24 people x 4 dkp (round up since it was slighly over 3 hours) = 96 dkp earned. Somewhere around 130 DKP were spent on the items.

So from a loot only perspective it was definately worthwhile. From a guild perspective it was also worthwhile as I believe we were the first on the server to beat the recently buffed boss mob which results in guild pride. We also advanced a heritage quest for a number of people who had made it to the step where you need to kill Vyemm.

From a personal perspective I won a Swashbuckler only hat for the minimum DKP that was a server discovery and the nicest chain cap I have seen out of KOS yet. It was around a 25% improvement over my existing "signature quest" hat. I also earned 1 full AA point off of the last kill (so did everyone else).

[Nebu]

Stuff...

Unfortunately, I am all too aware of the dkp system.  It makes me cry.  The whole raid endgame makes me cry. 

The idea that I get to work 12h just to come home and try and organize a bunch of idiots people to whack a large foozle so I can get a +1 sword after 4h of mind-numbing tedium just doesn't seem like fun.  The thought that people are willing to pay real money for the opportunity to stand in line to do this makes even less sense to me.  I have to blame my my 2 years in EverQuest.  It has forever purged the desire to endure this type of "fun". 

[UD_Delt]

Could be a difference in guild dynamics. Everyone in our guild knows at least a few other people from real life. Our guild leader for example is a buddy of mine from highschool. A bunch of his friends from college that I met a couple times play. Then friends of theirs, so forth and so on. We also have at least 4 families that play. 2 husband and wife teams, my father was in the guild for a long time until he decided to move to PvP, the parents of a couple other guildies play, etc...

An example, I went to one of my close friend's, brother's bachelor party. I've met his brother a bunch of times before that but never met any of his brother's friends. Turned out 2 of the other guys there were actually in the same guild as me and were college friends of our GL.

We've recently taken on a few people from one of the other top raiding guilds on the server due to attrition within our guild. Could be a change in dynamic now but only time will tell.

[Telemediocrity]

Question:  Why doesn't the dragon just drop 40 scales, or what have you, and each person gets one scale that they can turn in for the loot item of their choice?

Other games figured out how to that... 4, 5 years ago?

[Zane0]

At that rate, raid content would not be generated quickly enough to keep people interested.

This answer was fairly obvious 4 or 5 years ago.

[UD_Delt]

Question:  Why doesn't the dragon just drop 40 scales, or what have you, and each person gets one scale that they can turn in for the loot item of their choice?

Other games figured out how to that... 4, 5 years ago?

Sounds kind of boring. Every class would have the same gear then. The gear would also not be able to be as good without ruining the game balance. A mob dropping 1 or 2 pieces of incredibly good gear doesn't imbalance the game as it would take a long time to collect however many slots x 24 characters given this particular zone has a 1 week lockout (but that's another rant).

[Nebu]

Could be a difference in guild dynamics. Everyone in our guild knows at least a few other people from real life. Our guild leader for example is a buddy of mine from highschool. A bunch of his friends from college that I met a couple times play. Then friends of theirs, so forth and so on. We also have at least 4 families that play. 2 husband and wife teams, my father was in the guild for a long time until he decided to move to PvP, the parents of a couple other guildies play, etc...

I didn't mean to be too harsh.  I totally understand this.  Sometimes you can forgive a lot in a game's design if you're playing it with a group of fun people. My criticism was more directed at the mechanics of the game not toward your enjoyment of it.  If you're able to play online with a bunch of good people, that can make the whole experience worthwhile.

[UD_Delt]

I guess I don't see how the mechanics are an issue. Seems to be purely a people issue to me, then again maybe I'm blinded to the mechanics because like you said I enjoy the company....

[Nebu]

My opinion is that if a game needs a dkp system, something is wrong.  Perhaps I could be blinded by the fact that I couldn't play a game with people that actually use a dkp system.  If someone I play with wants something on a raid, I was pretty happy to let them have it.  Seeing someone else get all excited about getting the Sword_of_pwn has always brought me more happiness than a 10% improvement in my pixelated toon's ability.

[UD_Delt]

My opinion is that if a game needs a dkp system, something is wrong.  Perhaps I could be blinded by the fact that I couldn't play a game with people that actually use a dkp system.  If someone I play with wants something on a raid, I was pretty happy to let them have it.  Seeing someone else get all excited about getting the Sword_of_pwn has always brought me more happiness than a 10% improvement in my pixelated toon's ability.

DKP serves the greater good in my opinion. It tends to balance the entire guilds improvement over time. Sure, you may enjoy seeing someone else get an item at a cost of giving up 10% potential. But do that 10 times and you're now half as capable as the next member of your guild who is ready to move up to more challenging content but now has to take you through the content to gear up or leave you behind. That person now has to give up loot 10 times because they don't need it in order to catch you up.

Using a DKP system you would both be earning and bidding on items and improving at the same pace so neither of you would be bored raiding a zone you no longer need anything from.

Does that make sense or did I do a horrible job of explaining it?

[HaemishM]

I guess I don't see how the mechanics are an issue. Seems to be purely a people issue to me, then again maybe I'm blinded to the mechanics because like you said I enjoy the company....

It's an issue because (in this case) 22 out of 24 people probably got fuckall for the trouble of the raid. Which means 24 people now have to do the raid again, only now its easier so that only 20 out of 24 people need to do it again but its even easier and then only 18 people out of 24 now have to do the raid again...

Raids are totally fucked because they never reward everyone, and those who are rewarded are rewarded so much more than those who aren't that its inevitable the green bitch of jealousy comes out.

Of course, knowing many of the people in real life helps a great deal. But I'm with Nebu. That kind of content makes me want to stab people with my turgid cock.

[Rasix]

My opinion is that if a game needs a dkp system, something is wrong.  Perhaps I could be blinded by the fact that I couldn't play a game with people that actually use a dkp system.  If someone I play with wants something on a raid, I was pretty happy to let them have it.  Seeing someone else get all excited about getting the Sword_of_pwn has always brought me more happiness than a 10% improvement in my pixelated toon's ability.

Hippie. 

I hope this doesn't end up rehashing why DKP is needed is current game systems, how it's helpful, or that the need for the system isn't any indication of a game's merits.   We've had this discussion I think rather extensively in the WoW subforum.

Cliff notes version:
DKP advocates: People have different motivations.
DKP detractors: Raiding is stupid.
DKP advocates: K. People still have different motivations. Raiding still exists. 
Free-roll advocate: Hah, I raid  and we just roll on all gear.  Shit, my alt druid won a Rag hammer.  Suck on it, poopsockers. 
NBG hippie commune member: We talk it over and just decide who would benefit most from it. Our leaders are fair and wise. 
DKP advocate: That's fine. That'll work in some situations, DKP will work in most others where guild members aren't on a first name basis and raiding in something other than a utopian society.  THIS ISN'T NAM, THIS IS WOW. THERE ARE RULES.

Repeat the above for 1 to 4 pages.

[UD_Delt]

I guess I don't see how the mechanics are an issue. Seems to be purely a people issue to me, then again maybe I'm blinded to the mechanics because like you said I enjoy the company....

It's an issue because (in this case) 22 out of 24 people probably got fuckall for the trouble of the raid. Which means 24 people now have to do the raid again, only now its easier so that only 20 out of 24 people need to do it again but its even easier and then only 18 people out of 24 now have to do the raid again...

Raids are totally fucked because they never reward everyone, and those who are rewarded are rewarded so much more than those who aren't that its inevitable the green bitch of jealousy comes out.

Of course, knowing many of the people in real life helps a great deal. But I'm with Nebu. That kind of content makes me want to stab people with my turgid cock.

Actually in this particular instance everyone did get something. That was 1 full AA level and 4 DKPs. As far as loot only about 10 out of 24 got upgrades this time but the other 14 still earned DKP to spend on future upgrades. Each and every raid will reward DKP which means you are always getting something out of raiding.

Did I really get anything for working today? No, but I will get something in 2 weeks when I get my paycheck. The fact that a co-worker might be on a different pay schedule and got paid today doesn't mean anything to me.

Ugh.... now you made me compare raiding to a job. You bastard!


Then again if I could drink and bullshit with a bunch of my friends while on the job I might like it a whole hell of a lot more.

[HaemishM]

Ugh.... now you made me compare raiding to a job. You bastard!

/selfowned

[Nebu]

Ugh.... now you made me compare raiding to a job. You bastard!

/selfowned

That made my day... well that and being called a Hippie.

[Telemediocrity]

Question:  Why doesn't the dragon just drop 40 scales, or what have you, and each person gets one scale that they can turn in for the loot item of their choice?

Other games figured out how to that... 4, 5 years ago?

Sounds kind of boring. Every class would have the same gear then. The gear would also not be able to be as good without ruining the game balance. A mob dropping 1 or 2 pieces of incredibly good gear doesn't imbalance the game as it would take a long time to collect however many slots x 24 characters given this particular zone has a 1 week lockout (but that's another rant).

Why shouldn't classes use similar gear?  Diku style class differentiation seems to be a major problem, not a benefit.

The two most interesting 'class' systems I've seen,  WarCraft 3 mod for CounterStrike and AC1, generally allowed players of different classes to use similar and overlapping equipment.

That said, why would it follow that every class would have the same gear from everyone getting a 'token' from the raid exchangeable for loot?  They could turn in the token for different items depending on their preference.

Also, since when is game balance predicated on keeping some items rare?  The best MMOs I've played all explicitly don't keep the uber items rare and out-of-reach of the average player.  I always just kinda figured that was a good thing.

What, so someone who plays 10 times as much as me should have more gear and more power?  How is that fun for me?  Fuck that shit.

===

Re: DKP - it sounds necessary, given the system you're operating under, just as money has replaced barter for most impersonal interactions.  Intimate interactions will be governed by context instead, just as in the real world - you don't pay your wife to sleep with you, for instance.  I would imagine about 90% of raid guilds would work best on DKP, and the other guilds that don't won't use it - I see how you'd want to debate using DKP or not within your guild, but debating it overall just seems like a really pointless argument.

===

At that rate, raid content would not be generated quickly enough to keep people interested.

This answer was fairly obvious 4 or 5 years ago.

Maybe the solution to that is that people should play the game far less (say, 5 hours a week?), or that they should play games with content-generation tools such that content gets added quicker than in, say, today's EQ2 or WoW, even accounting for everyone only needing to do a certain raid once?

It seems like the player has three options:  Playing because they want to, not playing because they don't want to, and playing because the game will 'pay' them.

The problem is, what you're talking about involves switching options 2 and 3 - doesn't that create an incentive for game designers to create content that you'll play well beyond where it interests you, just to have "something to do"?

[Strazos]

Strazos, that encounter was the scariest, most tense thing evah. It wasn't simply dying that made the 4 skeletons pop (any one of which could kill any player within 8 seconds), but simply getting off the aggro list caused them to spawn. Stealthing, FD, even zoning caused 4 to spawn if that player was on this boss mob's aggro list.

Heh, at least they couldn't see through perfect rogue stealth. Sure, I guess I made 4 more skeletons by hitting Escape, but hey - someone has to be there to do the corpse run or say when the mobs despawn.

[Telemediocrity]

What's a mob 'despawn'?

[UD_Delt]

What's a mob 'despawn'?

Usually a timed encounter. If you don't finish it or fuck it up then the mob goes 'poof' and you blow your chance. Try again later.

[UD_Delt]

What, so someone who plays 10 times as much as me should have more gear and more power?  How is that fun for me?  Fuck that shit.

There's the rub between raiders and non-raiders. It always comes down to the sense of entitlement non-raiders feel and the contempt of the raiders that the non-raiders want to trivialize the time they've spent.

Anyway....

I actually play less now that I'm raiding than I did when I was leveling. I raid 3 times a week and each raid averages around 3 - 3.5 hours. So, I probably play about 10-12 hours per week. I played closer to 20 hours/week as I was leveling. We also don't require raid attendance other than if you start the raid you need to finish it. So, as long as you have one night a week you could put in 3 hours you could be a raider.

[Morfiend]

Anyway....

I actually play less now that I'm raiding than I did when I was leveling. I raid 3 times a week and each raid averages around 3 - 3.5 hours. So, I probably play about 10-12 hours per week. I played closer to 20 hours/week as I was leveling. We also don't require raid attendance other than if you start the raid you need to finish it. So, as long as you have one night a week you could put in 3 hours you could be a raider.

Thats what im finding now also. Now that I have devoted myself to raiding, I actually seem to spend less time in the game than I did before. Its actually nice. I have fun raiding, and I get to spend more time with my friends/girlfriend.

[Toast]

Some other issues with no DKP system:

1. Self-interest. People only attend raids with loot they want. Some people are just not charitable enough spend a long play session with no chance of direct reward. It's amazing how many people suddenly don't log on on certain nights. This can leave the guild without classes necessary to even do the raid.

2. Lucky short-timer syndrome:  DKP systems put the powerful items in the hands of those who play the most and contribute the most. This helps the guild go and get more shineys for everybody. How much good does it do the guild is Mr. Casual logs on one time in a month, hits a lucky roll, and wins the best weapon in the guild? Note that Mr. Casual could save up his points over a longer time and eventually get a sweet item.

3. Random luck is a pretty poor way to distribute wealth. And, loot in computer games is analagous to wealth. DKP is a step toward fairness that can keep people more satisfied. A guild can topple like a house of cards with a slight puff of drama, so fairness is a good thing.

[Nebu]

I still don't think people understand.  DKP exists because raiding is a broken game mechanic and involves large numbers of equally broken people. 

My issues aren't with the dkp system.  My issues are with the fact that raiding endgames are so messed up that they required players to create things like the dkp system to un-fuck them.

[Toast]

I think it's because people are broken. The greedy, broken nature of people in just about any setting usually causes the evolution of systems of control.

People can't be expected to help others in a game. They can't be expected to put aside their own needs for someone needier. Finally, /random does not always reward the saints and the most deserving out there.

[schild]

Look, everyone wants to be unique. People aren't the broken part. A lot of MMOG players have obsessive personalities, or else they wouldn't take part in shit like this.

The system itself is broken. If I waste time going on a raid after I max out my level, I sure as fuck better get something for it. And most of the the time most of the players don't get anything for it. There's an easy fix for that. Diversify the loot tables and give loot to everyone for shit like this. It's not fucking rocket science. McQuaid and Co. set a bad fucking precedent and we're just screwed. Even the history of the mechanic is depressing.

HOWEVER, it dates back a little further. Back in Major Mud when the first expansion came out, they added a weapon to the game that only one level 10 player could get. It took about two people to really survive the machine. Myself and one of my arch-nemeses were the only two thieves in the game. We both wanted that Crystal Shortsword like a motherfucker. So the moment the servers went up with the first expansion, we both hammered to get online. When we finally got in, I got to the room it was in about 15 seconds before him. When I left, I killed him.

Games don't do that sort of shit anymore. But one item for one person for one realm. That's almost as bad as a the current drops for raids. HOWEVER, the realm only had 50 people playing. So, uh, yea, fuck raids.

[Telemediocrity]

There's the rub between raiders and non-raiders. It always comes down to the sense of entitlement non-raiders feel and the contempt of the raiders that the non-raiders want to trivialize the time they've spent.

FWIW, life itself makes it clear that the time all of us spend on MMOs is trivial, no matter what we're doing.  Some We-Deserve-Better-Because-We-Spend-Time raiders might try and kid themselves on that, but a conversation or two about their raiding with someone who doesn't play MMOs at all (A group of people I would henceforth refer to as 'people better than us') should dispel any such illusions.

I still don't think people understand.  DKP exists because raiding is a broken game mechanic and involves large numbers of equally broken people. 

My issues aren't with the dkp system.  My issues are with the fact that raiding endgames are so messed up that they required players to create things like the dkp system to un-fuck them.

Sure it sucks, but I think it's kind of cool that something like DKP came about - life is more interesting when players make (and can thus break) their own systems, rather than having them hard-coded into the game.  Just as I enjoyed MMO trading/bartering more when there was no secure trade, I'd be less interested in the DKP system if it were hard-coded into the game.

[Nebu]

Just as I enjoyed MMO trading/bartering more when there was no secure trade, I'd be less interested in the DKP system if it were hard-coded into the game.

Because we all know that the lack of secure trading was good for non-duchebags, right?

[Telemediocrity]

I firmly believe that if you had player justice mechanisms in place, even non-douchebags would benefit from a lack of secure trade.  When players make something for themselves, it has a personal touch and charm that a pre-programmed system just can't match.

The solution was giving the players the ability to make more things (e.g. justice, protections against thievery), not less.

[Rasix]

Ohh jesus, not this line of crap again.

Just to save everyone the bother: yes he actually believes that.  No, he's not kidding. Yes, he may be mildly retarded or at very least sociopathic.

Enough with the 1997 era timewarp troll-bait. If you're going to spew insanity, there's a place for that.

[Telemediocrity]

Just to clarify, I'm saying "you could come up with something more 'meaningful' in a way", not "you'd have something that everyone would like better".  Secure trade is the gold standard now because most everyone seems to like it.  But as is the case with so many things, when something becomes popular and easy, oftentimes something more intangible is lost in the process.