Will DDO survive the April attrition as free months expire?

[Morfiend]

From there, I sort games into three groups. (This is all assuming I play as the game devs intended, not taking into account griefing or things like that)

Largely fun:  AC1, Puzzle Pirates, Toontown, DDO.  Also probably EVE, if I were into space combat.

Some elements of fun to be had, mayhaps:  ATITD, Guild Wars, CoH, Neocron, UO and Shadowbane (If I could deal with click-movement), RuneScape, SWG post-NGE

Absolutely no fun to be had:  EQ, DAoC, WoW, AO, Horizons, MapleStory, Rubies of Eventide, SilkRoad Online, SWG pre-NGE

Your problem is you are arguing opinions, and you can never, ever, win at that. You cant tell me that WoW is a unfun game. you can say "I didnt have fun in WoW" but if you try and tell me "WoW is NOT fun" then I call bullshit on you, cause myself (and it seems a lot of other people) find WoW to be a very fun game. So by telling me "WoW is not fun" you are automatically wrong.

Most MMOs are completely unfun.

Again, same thing, you CANT say that or you are wrong. Plain and simple.

[Soln]

FWIW, DDO is actually rather fun, assuming you have a good group of people or guild to play with to minimize/negate the chance of grouping with a moron in a PUG.

I have very limited time to play these days, so if there is a serious lack of content, I haven't felt it yet.  In fact, I don't think I've repeated a quest yet.

Then again, I didn't come to the game expecting to solo.  Or craft.  I read what was in and what wasn't in, beta tested the game, thought about it, and decided to give it a go.  When I get tired of it, I'll quit  playing.  So far, I'm not tired of it.

My only hope is that the new content patch has stuff for lower levels (from lv 1 to 10).  I have several alts that I'd rather NOT take back through the same few quests in the harbor again.  So far, it has been worth paying for for a month.  We'll see how it goes.

That's funny, I also have very limited time to play, but I didn't participate in the Beta, I knew pretty much nothing about it except it was an "MMORPG" and I tried it out for a good week.  I think I'm close to your average consumer for Turbine, but I feel a lot of buyer's regret.  That's not an MMO to me, but to each their own.   Seems pretty much the norm these days that providers expect you to show up with a guild or a permanent PUG.  But in DDO if no one answers your tell or there's few people on or few people at your level/rank you're pretty much screwed for gameplay.  Honestly, I think that's just bad design.  But only my experience.

[Telemediocrity]

Your problem is you are arguing opinions, and you can never, ever, win at that. You cant tell me that WoW is a unfun game. you can say "I didnt have fun in WoW" but if you try and tell me "WoW is NOT fun" then I call bullshit on you, cause myself (and it seems a lot of other people) find WoW to be a very fun game. So by telling me "WoW is not fun" you are automatically wrong.

Morph, I'm with you that it's subjective.  My rule is that I'll basically go with the same language choices that everyone else does.  So if 50 people post "DDO is shit", and they expect people to read a 'IMHO' into it at the end, I'll post 'DDO is fun' and expect people to read in the IMHO as well.

As for comparing mechanics between games - well, it's subjective, but we all try to do that, with varying degrees of success.  I've had a hard time seeing what mechanics people find fun in WoW/EQ/DAoC or pretty much any Diku for that matter, so the explanation I've had to fall back on is Skinner-box-esque addiction.  I fully understand that everyone has a different experience, I've just never had anyone who's explained to me exactly what they found fun about WoW in a meaningful way.

I mean, isn't that why these rantsites exist?  Because people hate these games, yet they play them anyways?

I mean, if there was fun to be had in EQ, would Lum the Mad have ever been started?  Maybe I'm mistaken here, but I always assumed Lum ranted on LtM because EQ was an irredeemably shitty game but he was addicted nonetheless.

[Rasix]

I mean, isn't that why these rantsites exist?  Because people hate these games, yet they play them anyways?

I mean, if there was fun to be had in EQ, would Lum the Mad have ever been started?  Maybe I'm mistaken here, but I always assumed Lum ranted on LtM because EQ was an irredeemably shitty game but he was addicted nonetheless.

You fail. Completely.

[raydeen]

Rantsites exist because yes, we love these types of games, but ultimately because we feel the need to express our likes or dislikes. More so the dislikes in vain hope that the devs and publishers will hopefully catch on to the fact that maybe they have been cranking out some irredeemable shit out and need to change their evil ways. LtM didn't play EQ because it was an irredeemably shitty game. I haven't been playing EQ for 7 years because it's an irredeemably shittly game. It has it's flaws as any other of these games do, and they glare brighter each day. Lum took what knowledge he had and attempted to alter the path of MMOGs after EQ. Unfortunately, I don't know that too much change has been effected. I can see some. Todays games don't have the incredible amount of 'downtime' that EQ had/has. There's virtually no penalty anymore for death. At least no insane corpse runs with half a zone on your backside as you desperatly try to get back to your body. (Actually a few of those runs were kinda fun come to think of it.) If something cons lower than you, it's probably not going to eat your face off.

There's fun to be had in any game. Just some more than most, and as always, YMMV. CoX is my current happy place. I love running around with my army of darkness (necro/poison MM). It's like fainting goats, it never gets old.

That's why I think rantsites exist. Now put me on /ignore 'cause I probably missed the point as usual.

If it weren't for LtM, we might not have these slightly more fun games. Hopefully iin a few more years, we'll have slightly more fun.

[Lum]

Actually I played EQ very little (which became something of a joke eventually amongst my friends) and never got a character past level 50.

UO, on the other hand, I played TO DEATH FOR YEARS, so I guess the addiction thing applies there.

Given Televangelist/Mediocre/Hyu's posting history, though, I am 100% sure that he disagreed with everything that I wrote over the past seven years, assuming he bothered to read it.

Not really sure what any of this has to do with DDO!

[Nebu]

 

I said what had already been said.  That being said, I'm deleting this post.

[Samwise]

I would like some elaboration on how WoW's "crafting" gameplay differs from DDO's "collecting" gameplay, though.  I was under the impression that in either system you collect a few sprockets, hit a button to combine them, and you get a widget.  Right?

Nope. In DDO you collect a items that waste a ton of space in your inventory, then sell them to an NPC. That's it. There is no proficiency in collecting things and you don't create anything out of them.

Sure you create something out of them - when you give them to the NPC, he gives you a magic item.  Aside from the text that's displayed on the screen, that's no different from hitting a "craft" button and having your resources get turned into a magic item that "you" crafted.

Where does the proficiency in collecting things come in for the WoW crafter?  When you collect berries from a silverleaf bush, or whatever, does a little berry-picking minigame come up?

[Malathor]

 I mean, isn't that why these rantsites exist?  Because people hate these games, yet they play them anyways?

Uhhh, why would anyone play a game they don't like? I thought the purpose of this site was to give me a forum to dump on MMORPGs that weren't designed to my specifications. No?

 I've had a hard time seeing what mechanics people find fun in WoW/EQ/DAoC or pretty much any Diku for that matter, so the explanation I've had to fall back on is Skinner-box-esque addiction.  I fully understand that everyone has a different experience, I've just never had anyone who's explained to me exactly what they found fun about WoW in a meaningful way.

Personally I love Dikus and I don't see how anyone can think Dikus aren't fun. Now I understand you think differently, however, whenever someone can't explain their own subjective experience in a way that is meaningful to me I simply ascribe them as the product of some sort of pathology. Insanity or drugs are conveniently dismissive ones.

As for comparing mechanics between games - well, it's subjective, but we all try to do that, with varying degrees of success.

Speaking of successful prognosticating, my status as official DDO doomcaster is looking better and better. Pops are low, sales have dried up and how they expect to retain players when they run through the very limited content I can't guess. Soon will come the time when I'll be able to  jump up and down and tell you all "I told you so!" , and that will own.

[CmdrSlack]

But in DDO if no one answers your tell or there's few people on or few people at your level/rank you're pretty much screwed for gameplay.  Honestly, I think that's just bad design.  But only my experience.

Actually, if you sent a tell to someone you thought was online, there's a good chance they're not.  Apparently the "who is online" lists are rather buggy.  So yes, bad design in that respect.  Also, the chat system allows you to totally miss tells (I know I do on a regualr basis). 

I don't think that the guild is why I am enjoying DDO.  It is a factor, but not the end all be all reason.  I did just fine with PUGs in beta, and have been in some since launch.  I honestly don't expect it to be a game I can play if I can't find a group.  So, I expect to spend some time assembling a group.  Easiest way is, of course, to do it  yourself. 

Extroversion for the win and all that.

Meh.  I just don't see any real reason to spew hate for something you played for maybe a week.  Not you in particular, but most people who tried it only a bit and decided to hate it.  Samwise, I give a free pass, largely because he was a big fan at one point.  I still think they're doing plenty of things right.

[sinij]

WoW's crafting is, err, crafting.  I've never seen how crafting, in and of itself, can have appeal since it's just a means to an end.  The only game I can think of where crafting could truly be considered 'fun' or 'un-fun' would be Puzzle Pirates.

Early UO crafting was loads of fun. SWG crafting was also fun, too bad rest of the game wasn't any fun.

[Telemediocrity]

WoW's crafting is, err, crafting.  I've never seen how crafting, in and of itself, can have appeal since it's just a means to an end.  The only game I can think of where crafting could truly be considered 'fun' or 'un-fun' would be Puzzle Pirates.

Early UO crafting was loads of fun. SWG crafting was also fun, too bad rest of the game wasn't any fun.

What did you actually do in SWG crafting?  Was there some sort of game involved?  I mean, I can understand how someone would describe Puzzle Pirates crafting as 'fun' or 'not fun'.  But how is crafting in other games, such as SWG or WoW, more than a spreadsheet with a graphical layer tossed on top?

[schild]

You've never even played an MMOG, have you? Between raiding and this comment I'm firmly convinced you're just crazy.

[Telemediocrity]

You've never even played an MMOG, have you? Between raiding and this comment I'm firmly convinced you're just crazy.

Uh, I have.  The only game where I seriously did crafting was AC1, though, and that was on a mule I XP chain'ed up to the appropriate level.  I've just always seen crafting (except in the puzzle pirates sense) as an ideal activity for mules/alts, a means of facilitating gameplay rather than gameplay itself.

I suppose you could count mining/resource acquisition as 'gameplay', but then that lumps WoW, AC2, RuneScape, and DDO all into about the same category.

[Xilren's Twin]

Uh, I have.  The only game where I seriously did crafting was AC1, though, and that was on a mule I XP chain'ed up to the appropriate level.  I've just always seen crafting (except in the puzzle pirates sense) as an ideal activity for mules/alts, a means of facilitating gameplay rather than gameplay itself.

I suppose you could count mining/resource acquisition as 'gameplay', but then that lumps WoW, AC2, RuneScape, and DDO all into about the same category.

No, no, no.  The "crafting" game is not the actual item construction which is typically click and watch a progress bar.  Other than puzzle pirates, there no gaming elements to crafting.  The game part is attempting to sell your player made goods as a vendor thereby winning the "make money" game. :)  People who craft only items they need for themselves and their alts/friends/guildmates arent really playing the crafting game per se other than shrinking the market demand for the dedicater vendor players.

Personally, I'd love crafting to always be some sort of mini games.  EQ2's fails in this respect, but at least you can die while crafting....

Xilren

[UD_Delt]

Personally, I'd love crafting to always be some sort of mini games.  EQ2's fails in this respect, but at least you can die while crafting....

Xilren

I make a good bit of money in EQ2's crafting game, I recently reached the 300 plat in total sales mark on my vendor. You also would have a VERY hard time dying while crafting any more. Used to be a missed event on the forge would do 80% damage to you so two of those in a short time would drop you. The most they do anymore is 20% max and you recover a good 10% every six seconds so in theory it may still be possible to die but it would be less than a 1 in a million type chance. Most missed event things don't even do damage any more.

[sigil]

You've never even played an MMOG, have you? Between raiding and this comment I'm firmly convinced you're just crazy.

Uh, I have.  The only game where I seriously did crafting was AC1, though,*snip*

As an ex AC1 player myself, I can tell you that playing AC1 is a wholly different experience from every other MMOG out there. Which, for most people, translates into "It sucked ass." But for those who got into it, it was kinda cool. Having said that, crafting in AC was by no means crafting in the traditional sense, with the possible exception of arrows and those goofy potions and crystals that were of duious use.


Looking at your posts, it's clear that's where you're coming from. That's also the reason you appear to on some seriously contaminated crack when you do post.

[Azazel]

I make a good bit of money in EQ2's crafting game, I recently reached the 300 plat in total sales mark on my vendor. You also would have a VERY hard time dying while crafting any more. Used to be a missed event on the forge would do 80% damage to you so two of those in a short time would drop you. The most they do anymore is 20% max and you recover a good 10% every six seconds so in theory it may still be possible to die but it would be less than a 1 in a million type chance. Most missed event things don't even do damage any more.

You mean it's NOT easy to die while tradeskilling in EQ2 anymore? Damn that's truly a disappointing thing to hear. It was such an awesome mechanic that made for such a wonderful series of running jokes about EQ2 and SoE.

[Trippy]

Turbine sez: DDO most successful Turbine game evar!

Nichols couldn't disclose the number of people that have bought the game and are currently subscribing, but he did confirm that the game was the largest in Turbine's history. "We expected success for Dungeons and Dragons Online: Stormreach (DDO) because it represents a new paradigm for the MMO genre with unique features including party-based quests, integrated voice chat, real-time action combat, and award winning graphics that recreate the essence of the classic pen-and-paper roleplaying experience," said Nichols. "The response to the game has been terrific."

Edit: oh and I forgot to mention that DDO dropped off the weekly sales top 10 list so they better hope they can keep the players they have now.

[Telemediocrity]

'The largest in Turbine's history' means in excess of 130,000 subscribers.  Either that, or the guy is talking out of his ass.

[Mesozoic]

"We expected success for Dungeons and Dragons Online: Stormreach (DDO) because it represents a hugely popular existing license that can use nostalgia in lieu of actual content."

I weep for LoTRO.

[Miasma]

I am sure the box sales were relatively good due to the D&D license but they aren't going to keep many people around.  We should start a dead pool for it.  Something like x months until server mergers and y until shutdown.  Although I'm sure it will be a long time for shutdown, no real harm in keeping the servers running since they don't do much.

I never played AC1 but I think I will try it since everyone always says it is the MMO Turbine did well.  Maybe after I have burnt through Oblivion's content.

[Shockeye]

Do I hear a second for folding the threads from this subforum into the main MMO forum?

[Miasma]

They don't deserve to pollute the MMO forum, maybe a new subforum dedicated to dead or dying games should be created.  You could stick Shadowbane and Guild Wars in there too!  Plus if anyone ever wanted to make a thread for The Matrix Online they would know where to do it .

[Samwise]

They don't deserve to pollute the MMO forum, maybe a new subforum dedicated to dead or dying games should be created.

I was going to say wait until the threads are old enough that they won't show up on the first page, but I like your idea a lot more.

[Xilren's Twin]

They don't deserve to pollute the MMO forum, maybe a new subforum dedicated to dead or dying games should be created.

I was going to say wait until the threads are old enough that they won't show up on the first page, but I like your idea a lot more.

Just name it "I'm not quite dead yet...I think I'll go for a walk"

Xilren

[Arthur_Parker]

'The largest in Turbine's history' means in excess of 130,000 subscribers.  Either that, or the guy is talking out of his ass.

He means more people tried DDO in Beta than the Beta of any other Turbine product.  They are not claiming it has more subscribers than AC1 ever had, that would be foolish as (I fully believe) it's extremely untrue.

Turbine press statements are full of shit, for over a year (up until a few weeks ago) Turbine claimed to be the largest privately owned mmorpg company in North America, despite Mythic clearly having more subscribers and also being privately owned.  Turbine statements quite often boast numbers of forum accounts and beta trials, they will list themselves as having the fastest growing mmorpg, anything, anything at all that doesn't actually list how many paying customers they have.

The release of DDO provided some short term entertainment, but now there doesn't seem to be enough interest to support a forum.

[Endie]

Name one major, substantive thing DDO does that WoW does better.

Make money?  Keep players?

I waited for that damn  DDO execrescence for years.. years I tell you.  And I played it for ten days.  If it makes it to a year then I'll go back and try again, because to do that they'll have fixed a ton'o'stuff.

On the upside, it has certainly dampened my unreasonable hopes for LOTRO.

Endie

[Telemediocrity]

Name one major, substantive thing DDO does that WoW does better.

Make money?  Keep players?

Again - why should we approach these games from the perspective of a VC investor, rather than an actual player?

As for the 'dead forums' - what I think would be a better dynamic would be forums based on the company involved.  A forum for SOE, a forum for Turbine, one for NCSoft, etc.  Subforums within that if the populations here playing the game really merit it.

[Trippy]

'The largest in Turbine's history' means in excess of 130,000 subscribers.  Either that, or the guy is talking out of his ass.

He means more people tried DDO in Beta than the Beta of any other Turbine product.  They are not claiming it has more subscribers than AC1 ever had, that would be foolish as (I fully believe) it's extremely untrue.

It's unlikely he's talking about Beta -- most likely he's talking about active accounts. I agree it's not likely he's counting subscribers since so many people are still on their free month.

[Samwise]

Again - why should we approach these games from the perspective of a VC investor, rather than an actual player?

On this we agree completely.

[Murgos]

Name one major, substantive thing DDO does that WoW does better.

Make money?  Keep players?

Again - why should we approach these games from the perspective of a VC investor, rather than an actual player?

So, you don't think the ability of a game to make money and keep players has any correlation to the opinions of the game by the actual players?

Idiot.

[dusematic]

Jesus, looking back, I got my custom title rather easily.  Must have been a slow few days.  This guy fucking earned it.

[Arthur_Parker]

It's unlikely he's talking about Beta -- most likely he's talking about active accounts. I agree it's not likely he's counting subscribers since so many people are still on their free month.

I bet he's talking about Beta, I just can't prove it.

[Samwise]

So, you don't think the ability of a game to make money and keep players has any correlation to the opinions of the game by the actual players?

Idiot.

You realize, of course, you're putting yourself in the same camp as WUN saying that Revenge of the Sith was the best movie ever made.

Of course there's a correlation.  But if you evaluated a game's quality solely on how much money it made, you'd be playing nothing but Madden and the Sims.