Lord of the Rings Online - I have to wonder....

[Telemediocrity]

At least when I get a hard-on for my pet game that nobody else likes, they'll all agree that at some nebulous and debatable point in the past it used to be fun.

Was there some point where it operated on WASD?

[El Gallo]

I don't see how "based on D&D" or "small group oriented" are really salient features of DDO.  I mean, sure they're features, but they're so tangential to the main thrust of the product itself that I don't see how they would significantly impact someone's opinion of the game.

Wait, "based on D&D" and "small group oriented" aren't even SALIENT features of an essentially group-only game called DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS online with a setting and character system directly ripped from D&D, but the motherfucking ability to swim up a tunnel (ZOMG Z AXIS !!!11!!!111ONE1!) is some mind-blowingly essential quality that separates DDO from every other video game in the universe?  If their target demographic was moronic trolls with no understanding of aesthetics, it looks like a direct hit.

To everyone else, it looks like a video game a retarded child made out of Popsicle sticks and leaves.  You can't yell at the kid Turbine, because they tried really hard and it's unfair to think that they could do any better.  So you just pat them on the head and chuck it in the attic.

Go play on a mediocre NWN persistent world server and you'll find a similar game made out of Popsicle sticks and leaves by a non-retarded child.

[Telemediocrity]

Wait, "based on D&D" and "small group oriented" aren't even SALIENT features of an essentially group-only game called DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS online with a setting and character system directly ripped from D&D, but the motherfucking ability to swim up a tunnel (ZOMG Z AXIS !!!11!!!111ONE1!) is some mind-blowingly essential quality that separates DDO from every other video game in the universe?  If their target demographic was moronic trolls with no understanding of aesthetics, it looks like a direct hit.

Uh, the tunnel swimming is perhaps the least important use of the Z-Axis ingame.  Z-Axis use adds:

1.  A whole new tactical dimension to combat.
2.  Another dimension of perception awareness - otherwise, you might as well be playing Diablo.  It better allows you to keep on your toes.
3.  The ability to design much more interesting dungeon layouts.

Really, is the value of Z-axis movement even in dispute?  I mean, compare Doom and Quake, for chrissakes.  Z-Axis movement via powers like flight and super-jumping was one of the cooler things about CoH.

Go play on a mediocre NWN persistent world server and you'll find a similar game made out of Popsicle sticks and leaves by a non-retarded child.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't NWN click-to-move?  I don't play click-to-move games - if I were, I might be willing to give UO a fair shot.  I find that movement system impossible to enjoy, because your character isn't responsive as he should be.

Character movement is incredibly important - for instance, CounterStrike became so popular in large part because HalfLife's movement engine is so good.  It has everything to do with how the game feels.  Click-to-move games (usually with no meaningful jump skill) like Diablo just don't do it for me at all.

[SpaceDrake]

NWN, like all 3d games which default to click to move, can be configured natively to use keyboard movement.

And speaking of which, I'll be straight and admit that I don't "get" why DDO was made, and I don't get it for the reason listed above: NWN and its upcoming brother, NWN2. Yes, NWN didn't end up being the god almighty cure for cancer many people thought it would be years ago. But it's still solid, and most importantly, as El Gallo pointed out: if DDO's focus is small-group instanced stuff, then... there's a game that already does that with a far more popular and established D&D world. And it's free. And it has, at this point, reams of content that can be played solo or with parties. And it allows users to create their own content and share it with others.

And there's another game in that series, also free, that's going to do the exact same thing except it'll match DDO graphically.

As such, I don't get DDO. It's essentially competing with its own liscense, and it's VERY arguable as to whether or not its gameplay is superior to NWN, let alone NWN2. The whole thing just seems ill-concieved, from top to bottom.

And lol@the dragon newsletter. Yay, we managed to do in a patch one of the things WoW had at launch.

[Margalis]

Wait, "based on D&D" and "small group oriented" aren't even SALIENT features of an essentially group-only game called DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS online with a setting and character system directly ripped from D&D, but the motherfucking ability to swim up a tunnel (ZOMG Z AXIS !!!11!!!111ONE1!) is some mind-blowingly essential quality that separates DDO from every other video game in the universe? 

I was going to basically say the same thing but I started figuring that Tele is some sort of gimmick account or something. The fact that the game must be played in small groups, and preferably static groups, basically is the defining characteristic of the game.

As far as interesting dungeon layouts goes - huh? Use of the z-axis may give them "The ability to design much more interesting dungeon layouts" but they sure aren't taking advantage of it. The ranomly generated dungeons in Daggerfall really aren't much worse. When the entire game is dungeons that's a bad thing. They should have named the game Basement Quest.

[bhodi]

Dragons? Come on guys. Don't tell me we forgot dragons

[HaemishM]

I fail to see how bringing DDO's use of the Z-Axis into the argument can help at all. About the only thing I saw it used for was jumping on barrels to keep mobs from hitting me, then shooting the shit out of them (and missing more than half the time) until they died. Occassionally one would get the idea and fire back at me or reach me, but most of the time COH did it much better and my character didn't feel like it was walking through quicksand.

And the interface was much better.

[Arthur_Parker]

If their use of the Z-Axis is so great, how come I couldn't sit down on a chair in the inn?

[HaemishM]

If their use of the Z-Axis is so great, how come I couldn't sit down on a chair in the inn?

Sacrilege! NO MMOG allows that.

Except SWG and WoW, of course.

[Lantyssa]

If their use of the Z-Axis is so great, how come I couldn't sit down on a chair in the inn?

Sacrilege! NO MMOG allows that.

Except SWG and WoW, of course.

SWG removed that ability fairly early by making everyone slide out of their chair after five seconds.

[schild]

LIES.

[Yegolev]

LIES.

Ha!  Now I want to play SWG.

[Rhonstet]

But a game selling well makes it good?  Name one major, substantive thing DDO does that WoW does better.

In the interest of fairness (I do like DDO!), WoW does a few things a lot better.

Auctions.  WoW has them.  DDO, not so much.  And its a glaring omission in more ways then one.  Given that Stormreach was founded by the merchant-priince Dragonmarked houses and is home to uncounted masses of adventurers seeking wealth after the Last War, we should have an auction house. 

Clearly defined solo-vs-group quests.  In DDO, most quests are group quests.  Some especially hard ones warn you of that fact.  But what few quests can be solo'd aren't clearly defined.  WoW is much better at breaking down which quests you can do by yourself, versus which ones you absolutely must have help for.

Scale.  DDO has nowhere near the same sense of scale and the variety of settings as WoW.  Maybe that will change over time, since the first module hints at things like dreamscapes and planar environments, which are two staples of Ebberon.

PvP. DDO is purely PvE. People like PvP combat, and some sort of gameplay style or rule (if only something like 'monstering' from LARPing) should have been used.

[Lantyssa]

Ha!  Now I want to play SWG.

DON'T DO IT!

[Yegolev]

But I can make my avatar look like a fucking tool and cause other player mental grief with ease....

[schild]

There are some good screenshots to be gotten out of SW:G though. I always liked their bullshit lighting.

[Lantyssa]

But I can make my avatar look like a fucking tool and cause other player mental grief with ease....

You have to grief yourself first by logging in.

[Hoax]

Fuck you guys, I want to talk about Margalis' Hello Kitty Mecha MMO, that is an IP I could really get into.

Sure as hell would be better then DDO.

The only good thing about DDO is it doesn't string you along when you get to the end with a bunch of catass-centric raiding bullshit in order to keep pace with the Joneses in pvp.  Hell it doesn't even have pvp.  Instead it acts as a great example of the type of thinking I feel I hear a great deal of in the pvp threads.

DDO is the K.I.S.S. rule to the max, level up, get fat loot, re-roll, do it again.  No player created content, no meaningfull anything, no world, just a bunch of instanced loot hunts.  Oh fucking goodie.

I see WoW as the same thing just the following have been tacked on, which make WoW 100 times better then DDO but still nothing to write home about:

-pvp minigames (BG's)
-crafting
-catass-centric raid "endgame" for even bettar lewt

One is a blob-like shit monster (DDO) and the other is a blob-like shit monster w/ three arms (WoW) I think they both stink.

[Telemediocrity]

Again, sorry for sirbrucing, but I think the format fits when we're dealing with lists of features.

Auctions.  WoW has them.  DDO, not so much.  And its a glaring omission in more ways then one.  Given that Stormreach was founded by the merchant-priince Dragonmarked houses and is home to uncounted masses of adventurers seeking wealth after the Last War, we should have an auction house. 

Hmm, this is a good point.  One could argue as to how important it is, but I can see how WoW does that better.  Then again, DDO does have pawn shops selling player goods... but not to the extent WoW has.

Clearly defined solo-vs-group quests[/b].  In DDO, most quests are group quests.  Some especially hard ones warn you of that fact.  But what few quests can be solo'd aren't clearly defined.  WoW is much better at breaking down which quests you can do by yourself, versus which ones you absolutely must have help for.

Fair point.  DDO's length indicators are good, but tell me nothing about soloability.

Scale.  DDO has nowhere near the same sense of scale and the variety of settings as WoW.  Maybe that will change over time, since the first module hints at things like dreamscapes and planar environments, which are two staples of Ebberon.

Agreed.  While I still think DDO gets a bad rap in that it's not all just 'shades of brown', I do prefer WoW's graphical style and overall variety of environments (Though I still think GW has the best of all - too bad the whole game is on tracks).

PvP. DDO is purely PvE. People like PvP combat, and some sort of gameplay style or rule (if only something like 'monstering' from LARPing) should have been used.

Fair, but again outside the scope of "things DDO does".  I think this makes more of a point regarding mass market appeal (or lack thereof) than a direct comparison between the two titles.

[5150]

LIES.

At least you had warm feet!

[Telemediocrity]

DDO is the K.I.S.S. rule to the max, level up, get fat loot, re-roll, do it again.  No player created content, no meaningfull anything, no world, just a bunch of instanced loot hunts.  Oh fucking goodie.

This shows a complete inability to think beyond ends - to how the playing of the game itself, crawling dungeons and whatnot, might be fun.

It's the equivalent of a burned out investment banker who's got the cash but realizes there's no endgame, and he should have picked a game to play that was enjoyable from the get-go rather than having you think in terms of ends, and the means as just chaff you plow through.

No "meaningful" anything?  The fun you have from playing the game (and watching a number rise or equipping a new weapons is not playing the game) is supposed to be what's meaningful.

In short:

Bad thinking - The dungeons/hunting/whatever is the means, your equipment/stats/level/loot are the ends.

Good thinking - Your equipment/stats/level/loot are the means, having fun at the dungeon/hunting/whatever is the ends.

By the time you start to care a whole bunch about what is essentially numbers on a spreadsheet, you've already lost.

[HaemishM]

Unfortunately for DDO, the means weren't really all that spectacularly fun.

[Margalis]

Exactly. I have no problem with a simple fun game. Simple unfun game? Not so much.

[Telemediocrity]

That we can agree to disagree on - but I think Hoax's post was using the wrong criteria, so it doesn't even get that far.

[Driakos]

That we can agree to disagree on - but I think Hoax's post was using the wrong criteria, so it doesn't even get that far.

Your defense would work better if you currently owned DNDO and were subscribed to it.  As it is now, you do not sell me on it.  How fun could it be, the defender of it didn't even play past beta?

[Hoax]

Did you read what you quoted?

I'm past the point where spreadsheet numbers will ever equal fun.  The sense of accomplishment is dick when I pickup +1 chainmail.  I dont care, if that isn't going to help me kill another human player I just dont fucking care.  The only compelling thing DDO could ever hope to offer me would be interesting challenging dungeon crawls to take on with my buddies.  Getting loot so I can fight the next monster reskin that has +100hp IS NOT FUN.  Been there, done that, don't care anymore.


Beyond the fact that I dont find PvE to be compelling for shit anymore you have bigger problems:
I've watched people play DDO, it looks like ass.  For handcrafted dungeons it didn't look any more interesting then Diablo (but now with swtiches!!).  Oh the combat looks terrible too, worse the WoW even, versus smaller enemies it looks like people are swinging over them, the entire "feel" of the game sucks balls.  The only way I can tell people are hitting things is if they flash red and the speed most people attack at is too fast, it looks retarded and takes all "skill" out of their little revolutionary system.

If you had been around when we were talking about DDO's potential or lack thereof you might be aware of my thoughts on why that game was destined for suck.  They could have had an interesting successor/advancement of the Diabloesqe slash'N'loot genre if they had executed what they were trying to do correctly.  But for the same reasons I wouldn't pay 15$/mo for Planetside I would never pay $15/mo for DDO.  Sure they might be fun but there are other games I can have that kind of simplistic fun in for free.

[Telemediocrity]

That we can agree to disagree on - but I think Hoax's post was using the wrong criteria, so it doesn't even get that far.

Your defense would work better if you currently owned DNDO and were subscribed to it.  As it is now, you do not sell me on it.  How fun could it be, the defender of it didn't even play past beta?

Uh, we've been through this already - I want to play as soon as I can, but I have finals. 40 pages of original research due in less than a month. I'm performing in a Japanese hip-hop dance at the cultural festival this weekend (don't ask). A ton of stuff to handle. Even if DDO would fellate me while I played, I wouldn't have the time until summer begins in mid-May.

As such, my not being subbed right now says nothing about my lack of enthusiasm for the game.

As for having an accurate perception of the game, I played a month of beta, which is roughly analogous to playing from release until now.  In that time, I made it to level 4, which is where I'd be at right now.  It was late Beta, so everything was 99.9% stable and bug-free, at least as far as I saw.


Hoax:  Well, at least now we know which part we fundamentally disagree on.  I do find the dungeon crawls to be "interesting and challenging with my buddies".  Well, not so much 'buddies'; I play entirely pickup groups, and if I'm leader I have no class requirements (could run with no healers or whatever), so it usually turns out challenging and interesting.  But at least I now see where the fundamental disagreement lies.

I love exploring DDO dungeons - it gives me a feeling almost akin to Zelda 64, which is perhaps my favorite game of all time.

[Driakos]

Poke.  Poke.

I am not sure what it is, and I think you are not doing it intentionally, but when I read your posts I become enraged.

[Signe]

There, there, Sunshine.  It's not like he's a real person.  He's just an internet thing.  When you look away, he pops out of existence.

[Miasma]

You know those final exams, essays and Japanese folk dancing are incredibly important for your future.  In addition to not paying-for/playing games that you are a rabid fanboi of I would suggest you spend less time on the internet too, especially those timesink message boards.

I only care about your future, it's not like I just want to get rid of you because you are one of the few people I have managed to despise just based on reading their diseased thoughts via internet posts.

[Telemediocrity]

You know those final exams, essays and Japanese folk dancing are incredibly important for your future.  In addition to not paying-for/playing games that you are a rabid fanboi of I would suggest you spend less time on the internet too, especially those timesink message boards.

I only care about your future, it's not like I just want to get rid of you because you are one of the few people I have managed to despise just based on reading their diseased thoughts via internet posts.

Believe me, I'm trying.  This place is my skinner box.  Workin' on it.

And not Japanese folk dancing.  Japanese hip-hop dancing.  (Which is kind of like hip hop plus fairies, but oh well)

[HaemishM]

Believe me, I'm trying.  This place is my skinner box.  Workin' on it.

Try not. Do.

[Telemediocrity]

Poke.  Poke.

I am not sure what it is, and I think you are not doing it intentionally, but when I read your posts I become enraged.

That's odd.  Care to articulate that feeling further?

[5150]

No more Tele-focus-group threads please!

[schild]

Japanese hip hop is gay as gay can be. Everyone becomes enraged when they read your posts Mediocre. You're like a motherfucking virtual cheese grater - ON PEOPLE'S BRAINS.