Pages: 1 [2] 3 4
|
 |
|
Author
|
Topic: Lord of the Rings Online - I have to wonder.... (Read 23757 times)
|
Arthur_Parker
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5865
Internet Detective
|
10x 60,000 is 600,000, let's say DDO has 600,000 subscriptions, how much did it cost to make DDO?
My point was, you don't know it's commercially successful.
|
|
|
|
Threash
Terracotta Army
Posts: 9171
|
10x 60,000 is 600,000, let's say DDO has 600,000 subscriptions, how much did it cost to make DDO?
My point was, you don't know it's commercially successful.
He was actually claiming 60k subs, which would be a complete failure in most peoples opinions.
|
I am the .00000001428%
|
|
|
Telemediocrity
Terracotta Army
Posts: 791
|
10x 60,000 is 600,000, let's say DDO has 600,000 subscriptions, how much did it cost to make DDO?
My point was, you don't know it's commercially successful.
Hmm. In that case, I'll bow out - you're right on that point, I don't know it's commercially successful. However, I still think my central premise that Turbine doesn't have an unambiguously bad track record (and that one could in fact argue their track record is quote good) still stands. Also, to respond to Threash, 60k subs for a niche game? That's quite good, I'd think. Asheron's Call has 50,000 and it's still going strong - nobody credible is predicting its shutdown any time in the next few years. While the games may have cost them a pretty penny to initially make, I find it hard to believe that at 60k subs they're not operating at a profit month by month - and that's what counts to their players, as opposed to their venture capitalists, right? The original question was "Why do people keep playing Turbine's games", not "Why do VC's keep financing them", right? I think Turbine looks a lot better from a player's perspective than from an investor's.
|
|
|
|
Arthur_Parker
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5865
Internet Detective
|
Asheron's Call has 50,000 and it's still going strong - nobody credible is predicting its shutdown any time in the next few years.
Credible could be argued but check this out, well worth a watch.
|
|
|
|
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 23657
|
Hmm. In that case, I'll bow out - you're right on that point, I don't know it's commercially successful. However, I still think my central premise that Turbine doesn't have an unambiguously bad track record (and that one could in fact argue their track record is quote good) still stands.
Their track record prior to DDO was one modest success and one failure. That's hardly what I would classify as "quite good". Also, to respond to Threash, 60k subs for a niche game? That's quite good, I'd think. Asheron's Call has 50,000 and it's still going strong - nobody credible is predicting its shutdown any time in the next few years.
I doubt Turbine's pitch to WotC was that they were going to make DDO a niche game.
|
|
|
|
Telemediocrity
Terracotta Army
Posts: 791
|
Their track record prior to DDO was one modest success and one failure. That's hardly what I would classify as "quite good". Why are we going prior to DDO? DDO has launched, and the people I know playing it seem to be having quite a lot of fun. Even the Corpnews crowd is unusually warm to it. I doubt Turbine's pitch to WotC was that they were going to make DDO a niche game. Oh, I'll totally grant you that. But again, how does that matter from a player's point of view? See my previous statement about how Turbine looks very different from a player's perspective than from an investor's.
|
|
|
|
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 23657
|
Their track record prior to DDO was one modest success and one failure. That's hardly what I would classify as "quite good". Why are we going prior to DDO? Cause you were the one who brought up their track record? Track record means the record of their accomplishments.
|
|
|
|
schild
Administrator
Posts: 60350
|
Asheron's Call has 50,000 and it's still going strong - nobody credible is predicting its shutdown any time in the next few years.
Credible could be argued but check this out, well worth a watch. Fuck, that's really the first piece of so-called "gaming TV" that i've ever seen. I've seen clips here and there, but really nothing can prepare you for something that terrible. Morgan Webb needs to die. And yes, i wouldn't know who she was if not for FHM showing off her football shoulders every month.
|
|
|
|
Telemediocrity
Terracotta Army
Posts: 791
|
Their track record prior to DDO was one modest success and one failure. That's hardly what I would classify as "quite good". Why are we going prior to DDO? Cause you were the one who brought up their track record? Track record means the record of their accomplishments. Yeah, but El Gallo was referencing their track record for LoTR - which would naturally include DDO.
|
|
|
|
schild
Administrator
Posts: 60350
|
Their track record prior to DDO was one modest success and one failure. That's hardly what I would classify as "quite good". Why are we going prior to DDO? Cause you were the one who brought up their track record? Track record means the record of their accomplishments. Yeah, but El Gallo was referencing their track record for LoTR - which would naturally include DDO. Before anyone else says it, I'm going to point out the obvious. You make it very hard to have a conversation with you. You know exactly what he fucking meant. Stop being a moron.
|
|
|
|
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 23657
|
Their track record prior to DDO was one modest success and one failure. That's hardly what I would classify as "quite good". Why are we going prior to DDO? Cause you were the one who brought up their track record? Track record means the record of their accomplishments. Yeah, but El Gallo was referencing their track record for LoTR - which would naturally include DDO. Oh okay you didn't quote El Gallo so I didn't realize you were commenting on his remark. Even if you include DDO, though, I still wouldn't classify their track record as "quite good". It's still too new to say for sure but assuming that 60K figure is within the ballpark we're probably looking at an AC1 sized game with 100K - 150K subscribers. Given the fact they are using a well-known IP (though granted a crappy setting) and that we're in a post-WoW world now that would make it less of a success than even AC1 (which was modest even in the EQ-era) in my book. Or to put it another way they would've been better off making AC3 rather than spending the money and presumably royalties on the D&D license.
|
|
|
|
Telemediocrity
Terracotta Army
Posts: 791
|
Before anyone else says it, I'm going to point out the obvious. You make it very hard to have a conversation with you. You know exactly what he fucking meant. Stop being a moron.
Uh, no, I don't. This whole tangent started off when I was responding to El Gallo's comment - I quoted him directly. El Gallo wrote: How many shitty games can Turbine vomit out before people stop buying their games? Well, Turbine has 'vomited' out three games. That means, when judging LoTR in advance (Which is what we're talking about here, and more specifically what El Gallo was talking about), we should take into account three games: AC1, AC2, and DDO. One could argue that we should also take into account AC:DM, AC:TOD, and AC2:L, but I'd just as soon roll those into the above three. I looked at the three games Turbine has 'vomited' out and concluded that hey, maybe they're not in the business of 'vomiting' out shitty games after all. If there's something I'm seriously in the dark on, please let me know - but to me this whole thing seems relatively simple. Turbine's track record in the lead-up to DDO consisted of AC1 and AC2. Turbine's track record in the lead-up to LoTRO consists of AC1, AC2, and DDO. I honestly don't understand why you're flaming me over this. Oh okay you didn't quote El Gallo so I didn't realize you were commenting on his remark. Even if you include DDO, though, I still wouldn't classify their track record as "quite good". It's still too new to say for sure but assuming that 60K figure is within the ballpark we're probably looking at an AC1 sized game with 100K - 150K subscribers. Given the fact they are using a well-known IP (though granted a crappy setting) and that we're in a post-WoW world now that would make it less of a success than even AC1 (which was modest even in the EQ-era) in my book. Or to put it another way they would've been better off making AC3 rather than spending the money and presumably royalties on the D&D license. Scroll back up - I did quote El Gallo directly. It was his post, in fact (which I've also quoted above in this post for convenience) that launched this tangent. But again, I disagree with using financial/subscriber #'s success as the primary judge of Turbine's track record with its playerbase. See, for example, my backing off on that front in response to Arthur Parker's criticism of my assertion that DDO is a 'financial success'. Also, as another tangent - what does it being a 'Post-WoW world' mean when we're talking about niche games? (I would argue that DDO is a niche game, even if it wasn't pitched to WotC as such)
|
|
|
|
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 23657
|
Also, as another tangent - what does it being a 'Post-WoW world' mean when we're talking about niche games? (I would argue that DDO is a niche game, even if it wasn't pitched to WotC as such)
There are those that believe WoW did not in fact increase the size of the MMORPG marketplace -- that its success was derived from all the pre-existing Blizzard fanboys out there and these same people would never ever play a non-Blizzard game. I am not one of those people, so I believe the size defintion of what a "mass market" MMOG is has changed thanks to WoW and therefore what the size definition of a niche MMOG is.
|
|
|
|
Shockeye
Staff Emeritus
Posts: 6668
Skinny-dippin' in a sea of Lee, I'd propose on bended knee...
|
There are those that believe WoW did not in fact increase the size of the MMORPG marketplace -- that its success was derived from all the pre-existing Blizzard fanboys out there and these same people would never ever play a non-Blizzard game. Those people are crazy.
|
|
|
|
Telemediocrity
Terracotta Army
Posts: 791
|
I totally agree that WoW has changed the definition of mass-market - as for niche, I'm not so sure. I'm willing to be persuaded either way, but I'd like to hear some arguments beyond 'if the definition of mass market shifts, the definition of niche shifts too'.
|
|
|
|
Margalis
Terracotta Army
Posts: 12335
|
DDO is not very good, and AC2 was incredibly awful. AC1 was pretty cool for it's time. That is their track record.
|
vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
|
|
|
Telemediocrity
Terracotta Army
Posts: 791
|
DDO is not very good, and AC2 was incredibly awful. AC1 was pretty cool for it's time. That is their track record.
Well, there's the rub. IMHO, I would argue that DDO is very good - perhaps the most fun MMO since AC1. If there's one you enjoyed more than either of those two in between their respective releases, that's fair for you - but I've tried WoW, a bit of EQ, DAoC, AO, CoH, Horizons, Neocron, Toontown, RuneScape, Puzzle Pirates, Maple Story, and whatever other random shit I can get my hands on. None of these games were nearly as fun for me as the DDO beta, though Toontown and Puzzle Pirates each came close. As seen on CorpNews, there are other rather jaded types out there who enjoyed it as well. I know that some legitimately dislike it, but a lot of the criticism of the game seemed to come from mainstream players who disliked it for being niche; for not having crafting or raiding or world exploration, for instance, as opposed to it being bad for what it was. I'm not trying to rehash the hold DDO debates, I'm just saying - within the players that it was aimed at (i.e. judging DDO based on the opinion of people who like EQ/WoW probably won't get you anywhere), DDO entertained a substantial number of people. There's no general consensus that it's a bad game, as there is with AC2 among pretty much everyone. I suppose one's view of DDO, then, is relatively important to one's view of Turbine's track record - 66% vs 33%.
|
|
« Last Edit: April 02, 2006, 11:54:27 PM by Televangelist »
|
|
|
|
|
WindupAtheist
Army of One
Posts: 7028
Badicalthon
|
Remember kids: If it falls woefully short of it's subscription goals, it's not a failure, it's a niche game!
|
"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig." -- Schild "Yeah, it's pretty awesome." -- Me
|
|
|
Azazel
|
He was actually claiming 60k subs, which would be a complete failure in most peoples opinions.
Subs? At this stage? Shouldn't it be more like box sales rather than subs? Give it a couple of months, say 6. Then you can realisitcally start to look at sub numbers. And, yeah, that particular IP would suggest that they were aiming a bit higher than "niche game". Sounds kind of familiar, actually...
|
|
|
|
Mesozoic
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1359
|
I suppose one's view of DDO, then, is relatively important to one's view of Turbine's track record - 66% vs 33%.
All it shows is the stupidity of trying to apply statistics to a set of three.
|
...any religion that rejects coffee worships a false god. -Numtini
|
|
|
El Gallo
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2213
|
DDO is a shitty game. AC2 was a shitty game. AC1 was amateurish (even compared to the rest of the industry) and had a lot of shockingly asinine mechanics, but it certainly had its charms. That's one for three, and the one is iffy and half a decade old.
|
This post makes me want to squeeze into my badass red jeans.
|
|
|
HaemishM
Staff Emeritus
Posts: 42666
the Confederate flag underneath the stone in my class ring
|
Asheron's Call has 50,000 and it's still going strong - nobody credible is predicting its shutdown any time in the next few years.
Credible could be argued but check this out, well worth a watch. Two demerits for linking to G4, Assclown TV. Though the part about the AC NPC's telling you to buy other games was funny. Turbine's best known for making mediocre performing MMOG's. 62,000 may be profitable on a non-licensed game, but I'm not sure the D&D license will make it profitable, if that number is accurate.
|
|
|
|
Arthur_Parker
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5865
Internet Detective
|
Two demerits for linking to G4, Assclown TV.
Though the part about the AC NPC's telling you to buy other games was funny.
Turbine's best known for making mediocre performing MMOG's. 62,000 may be profitable on a non-licensed game, but I'm not sure the D&D license will make it profitable, if that number is accurate.
I have no clue what G4 is, so sorry if that's some whacky American channel or something. I only linked it because I thought it was an amusing perspective on AC. I really liked AC years ago so it's more difficult for me to judge it. I don't know if the 62,000 figure is correct or not, I know one of the other rumours appears to be true, the Lead Designer of DDO, Ken Troop, has left Turbine to join WoTC. I'm guessing Jesse "devilmouse" Kurlancheek might have taken over, due to the April Newsletter
|
|
|
|
Rasix
Moderator
Posts: 15024
I am the harbinger of your doom!
|
Layers of comedy in that link. Thank you.
|
-Rasix
|
|
|
Telemediocrity
Terracotta Army
Posts: 791
|
Can the people who just flat-out say "DDO is a shitty game" at least see why others might find it highly enjoyable? And thus understand why El Gallo's original statement of "How many shitty games can Turbine vomit out before people stop buying their games?" was rather silly and asinine?
I mean, really, what DDO does well is intricate, well-scripted quests/dungeon crawls that integrate elements of games like Tomb Raider into the mix - puzzles, extensive use of the Z axis, relatively 'twitch' combat, all that loveliness.
To me, that's enough for a whole game, right there - Is there really another MMO on the market right now that does that so much better?
If there is, let me know, so I can play it.
If not, how is arguably the best game in a not-insignificant niche (Questers, who like their content as Zelda-esque as possible) classifiable as 'shitty', except to say that it fills a niche you're not interested in?
And again, caveat about how if I were WotC's money suits, I wouldn't be happy right now.
Edit: Thanks for linking to the newsletter! Man, the new content looks really good. I can't wait until summer starts (early May) so I have time to subscribe.
|
|
« Last Edit: April 03, 2006, 10:51:40 AM by Televangelist »
|
|
|
|
|
Miasma
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5283
Stopgap Measure
|
How many demerits for a link to a thejeni post? 
|
|
|
|
Arthur_Parker
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5865
Internet Detective
|
Ok, who is thejeni? I found the newsletter via google, they didn't send me one, or my email spam filter is more intelligent than I thought.
|
|
|
|
Mesozoic
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1359
|
|
...any religion that rejects coffee worships a false god. -Numtini
|
|
|
HaemishM
Staff Emeritus
Posts: 42666
the Confederate flag underneath the stone in my class ring
|
How many demerits for a link to a thejeni post?  About 100 if you link to one of thejeni's posts on thejeni's site. None if you link to thejeni thread here.
|
|
|
|
Miasma
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5283
Stopgap Measure
|
That thread loses a lot of its magic with all the edited posts, I wish there was a version with both her initial post and her alt account's haxxor threats intact.
|
|
|
|
Arthur_Parker
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5865
Internet Detective
|
How many demerits for a link to a thejeni post?  About 100 if you link to one of thejeni's posts on thejeni's site. None if you link to thejeni thread here. It's too late to say I meant to do it, isn't it?
|
|
|
|
Margalis
Terracotta Army
Posts: 12335
|
Can the people who just flat-out say "DDO is a shitty game" at least see why others might find it highly enjoyable?
The two games I can think of that are most similar to DDO are Diablo and Phantasy Star Online, both of which are better. I can see people liking it if they really really need a small-group oriented quest based game based on D&D. The point is a game like WoW was liked by people who enjoy playing games in general, or at least online games. To like DDO you have to have pretty specific criteria. You have to want group play all of the time, you basically have to run with a static group of friends, you have to like dungeon crawling almost exclusively, have to like D&D, etc. To enjoy WoW you don't have to particularly like the WC setting, you don't have to like group play or solo play (you can do a fair bit of either), you don't have to run in a static group (although you can), etc etc. If you made Hello Kitty fighting mech-fighting game I'm sure some people would like that too. If they like fighting, mechs, and Hello Kitty. And Windup is right. Niche is something you try for, not fall ass-backwards into. Based on the license, the advertising, the team size and other things like that, it's hard to claim that DDO was intended to be a niche game. Second Life is a niche game. The all-text baseball simulation games for the PC are niche games. A niche game isn't a game that isn't very good and didn't sell very well. We call that a "poor" game.
|
vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
|
|
|
Telemediocrity
Terracotta Army
Posts: 791
|
My apologies for splitting this post more than usual, but I feel that it's useful in this instance. The two games I can think of that are most similar to DDO are Diablo and Phantasy Star Online, both of which are better. How so? I played both of those games, and I don't see any similarities whatsoever. There wasn't even meaningful Z-axis movement in either, as best I remember. I can see people liking it if they really really need a small-group oriented quest based game based on D&D. The point is a game like WoW was liked by people who enjoy playing games in general, or at least online games. I don't see how "based on D&D" or "small group oriented" are really salient features of DDO. I mean, sure they're features, but they're so tangential to the main thrust of the product itself that I don't see how they would significantly impact someone's opinion of the game. With the exception of a select few "OMG must have 40 man raid" types and a few "Give me solo or give me death"-ers, most people I've met in MMOs don't seem to particularly care what size of group is asked for - they'll just go with it, and if the game's fun, it's fun. As for the DDO license, you could reskin DDO as pretty much any other universe and it'd work fine. Hell, if you made swords into lightsabers, I think it'd make a pretty interesting "Star Wars" game. You could reskin Puzzle Pirates into Star Trek and leave the gameplay largely unscathed. To enjoy WoW you don't have to particularly like the WC setting, you don't have to like group play or solo play (you can do a fair bit of either), you don't have to run in a static group (although you can), etc etc. To me, WoW stands along with Myst and Deer Hunter as proof of the fact that if you go by purely populist standards, you'll end up with shitty games. I hope this doesn't make me an elitist, but I think most players do have really poor taste in gaming; they want skinner boxes, which they then addict themselves to regardless of whether or not the game itself was fun on the merits. In that sense, perhaps that explains why some WoW'ers often react to DDO with such vitriol; seeing others have fun in a game that doesn't need to addict you to keep you playing reminds them that they're hooked and makes them resent it a bit. (I'm not saying that's everyone, or most, but it certainly characterizes some of the responses I see) I saw the exact same thing in the batshit reactions of EQ'ers to AC1. If you made Hello Kitty fighting mech-fighting game I'm sure some people would like that too. If they like fighting, mechs, and Hello Kitty. I really don't see how subject matter trumps gameplay systems. I don't give a shit about Disney, but I really enjoyed ToonTown. And Windup is right. Niche is something you try for, not fall ass-backwards into. Based on the license, the advertising, the team size and other things like that, it's hard to claim that DDO was intended to be a niche game. I wouldn't make that claim. A niche game isn't a game that isn't very good and didn't sell very well. We call that a "poor" game.
But a game selling well makes it good? Name one major, substantive thing DDO does that WoW does better.
|
|
|
|
WindupAtheist
Army of One
Posts: 7028
Badicalthon
|
At least when I get a hard-on for my pet game that nobody else likes, they'll all agree that at some nebulous and debatable point in the past it used to be fun.
|
"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig." -- Schild "Yeah, it's pretty awesome." -- Me
|
|
|
schild
Administrator
Posts: 60350
|
At least when I get a hard-on for my pet game that nobody else likes, they'll all agree that at some nebulous and debatable point in the past it used to be fun.
I disagree with what you said.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4
|
|
|
 |