WAR- Computer Games Magazine - May

[HaemishM]

What does bind on pickup / bind on equip mean, exactly?

In AC1 we had "bonded" (cannot be dropped on death) and "attuned" (cannot be given to others while alive).  Is bind something different, or same name for different thing?

Wait a minute you've been trying to convince people that DDO is a better game than WoW and you've never even played WoW?

I played WoW up to level 8 or so, and quit because it sucked and at that point I had invested at least 5 hours - which is far too long to play for a game that's not offering you any fun and doesn't appear to offer anything else fun in the future.  Most of WoW's featureset appears similar (i.e. Diku w/ PvP) to DAoC and AO, which I invested about 100 hours in each, 100 hours utterly wasted.

If you only played to level 8 in WoW, you really don't have any call to criticize its PVP like you have been, mainly because at level 8 you'd have NO FUCKING CLUE what it entailed.

Again, you are a tool.

[Telemediocrity]

I've watched it played out - after years and years and years of PvP, I can tell what's good PvP and what's not from watching.  Watching CS, for instance, I'd have an insane urge to jump on a PC and join in.  WoW, by contrast, looks rather shitty - and the mechanics are set up so that it's pretty much impossible for it to be good.  Projectiles you can't physically dodge?  Come on!

If WoW wasn't offering me PvP action by level 8, that's its fault for a poorly designed game.  AC1 allowed me to PvP at level 1.

[Arthur_Parker]

Does every thread have to be about you?  Wow's shit because you made level 8 and didn't get to kill anyone, DDO's future is bright even though you don't currently play it.  Please go fuck up another thread I'm trying to decide what warhammer race I want to play, your negative karma is seriously bringing me down and possibly jinxing the entire project.

[HaemishM]

I'll repeat it just so you can be thoroughly sure where you stand.

You... are... a... tool.

Not every game is AC1. Watching WoW's PVP may be shitty, but that doesn't mean playing it will be shitty. You can say that "WoW is a shitty game because I don't get to PVP in the first five minutes of creation." And that might be valid. Stupid, but valid. You could say "It just didn't interest me" and that's valid, too. But you've made quantifible statements about how shitty and meaningless WoW's PVP is, like you've actually played it. And you haven't. At all.

As for not being able to dodge projectiles, again, not every game is AC1. While I might agree with you that I would prefer that option, it's been in just about every PVP-able MMOG out there that projectiles aren't dodge-able without some kind of skill. That doesn't mean it isn't fun. Shit, Shadowbane had great PVP, but you couldn't dodge projectiles there either. Arrows just follow you.

WoW's PVP feature set isn't for you, and that's fine. But you can't really say for sure, since you never participated in it. It's more fun that you think.

[Telemediocrity]

Not every game is AC1.

True, but most games should be more like AC1, IMHO.

Watching WoW's PVP may be shitty, but that doesn't mean playing it will be shitty. You can say that "WoW is a shitty game because I don't get to PVP in the first five minutes of creation." And that might be valid. Stupid, but valid. You could say "It just didn't interest me" and that's valid, too. But you've made quantifible statements about how shitty and meaningless WoW's PVP is, like you've actually played it. And you haven't. At all.

The problem is, it doesn't have certain features that are absolutely necessary for good PvP - for instance, fun twitch combat.

As for not being able to dodge projectiles, again, not every game is AC1.

While I might agree with you that I would prefer that option, it's been in just about every PVP-able MMOG out there that projectiles aren't dodge-able without some kind of skill.

Just about every PvP MMO out there wasn't any good, IMHO (See previous statement about the vast majority of MMOs, and MUDs by extension, and RPGs by extension, sucking in general).  It was pretty much sheer dumb luck that I happened to start out in the genre with one that was good. Had I started with a Zek on EQ and incorrectly assumed that everything else out there was similar, I probably wouldn't play MMOs to this day. (FWIW, Neocron had that, too)

Integration with your character's movement is key.  If my character's jumping, running, etcetera doesn't interact physically with the game world in a manner akin to Half Life, it feels like i'm playing a graphical layer on top of a MUD.  I mean, can you imagine playing a game of CS where the bullets just followed you, or where the jump button was 'just for show'?

When I'm saying "I don't like WoW's PvP", I'm not saying "And you shouldn't like it, either".  There's the implied "IMHO" at the end.  I get the feeling most F13'ers and myself are probably at opposite ends of the spectrum on the basics of what we enjoy; with the exception of Betrayal at Krondor and recent sand-boxy RPGs like Morrowind and Oblivion, I'm much more of an adventure/action gamer than an RPG player, and I've never found a MUD that was enjoyable.  Thus, MMOs that resemble RPGs/MUDs tend to start with two strikes against them.

[HaemishM]

Watching WoW's PVP may be shitty, but that doesn't mean playing it will be shitty. You can say that "WoW is a shitty game because I don't get to PVP in the first five minutes of creation." And that might be valid. Stupid, but valid. You could say "It just didn't interest me" and that's valid, too. But you've made quantifible statements about how shitty and meaningless WoW's PVP is, like you've actually played it. And you haven't. At all.

The problem is, it doesn't have certain features that are absolutely necessary for good PvP - for instance, fun twitch combat.

Neither does chess, but it's got great PVP.

[5150]

Isnt one thread derail into what wrong with Tele enough?

Please lets not have another - think of the children!

[Morfiend]

Not to derail farther, but I think I just figured him out (besides being a troll).

The problem is, it doesn't have certain features that are absolutely necessary for good PvP - for instance, fun twitch combat.

You dont like MMOG PVP. Ok, now thats done, stop gaying up every thread.

Anyway, to the topic at hand. I have always LOVED the Chaos guys. I also liked Undead. I was very excited when Blizzard announced that you could be Undead. I am even more excited that I could be a Chaos Warrior in Warhammer. I will buy this game no matter what, just so I can run around as a Chaos warrior for a few days. I just hope they make the Chaos guys properly demented.

I read in a dev interview that the devs are planning on certen races being underpopulated, I believe they said they thought the less pretty races would be the under populated ones. He named Orcs and Chaos as the ones they thought would be under populated.

[Telemediocrity]

You dont like MMOG PVP. Ok, now thats done, stop gaying up every thread.

Sure I do.  Neocron, Planetside, and AC1 all offer great PvP.  There's no reason WoW should be the norm and those should be the exceptions.

Anyway, to the topic at hand. I have always LOVED the Chaos guys. I also liked Undead. I was very excited when Blizzard announced that you could be Undead. I am even more excited that I could be a Chaos Warrior in Warhammer. I will buy this game no matter what, just so I can run around as a Chaos warrior for a few days. I just hope they make the Chaos guys properly demented.

I read in a dev interview that the devs are planning on certen races being underpopulated, I believe they said they thought the less pretty races would be the under populated ones. He named Orcs and Chaos as the ones they thought would be under populated.

I have a hard time believing Chaos will be underpopulated - it's just too badass.  The reason ugly sides are underpopulated in other games is that they're ugly without ever actualy 'feeling' 'evil'.

[HaemishM]

You dont like MMOG PVP. Ok, now thats done, stop gaying up every thread.

Sure I do.  Neocron, Planetside, and AC1 all offer great PvP.  There's no reason WoW should be the norm and those should be the exceptions.

There are 6.5 million reasons.

Stop fagging up threads. Don't you have a final to write?

[Telemediocrity]

You dont like MMOG PVP. Ok, now thats done, stop gaying up every thread.

Sure I do.  Neocron, Planetside, and AC1 all offer great PvP.  There's no reason WoW should be the norm and those should be the exceptions.

There are 6.5 million reasons.

Stop fagging up threads. Don't you have a final to write?

Due in a month - and hey, I talked about Chaos as well in the post, whereas you didn't.  And while WoW is a big chunk of the market, that doesn't mean WoW's PvP becomes the default behavior for MMOs (To where someone who doesn't like their PvP on its principles becomes someone who 'doesn't like MMO PvP'), any moreso than the fact that WoW has raids means that someone who doesn't like WoW's raids, or raids in general, is "against MMO PvE".

Just because it's being done a lot now doesn't mean that it's inherently the MMO genre's default.

For all we know, World of Starcraft can come along with 10 million subscribers and full twitch PvP, and when you say "You know, I don't see how PvP can be fun when it's twitch", I could retort with "Okay, there's your problem, you don't like MMOG PvP".  It'd be equally silly.

[HaemishM]

Due in a month - and hey, I talked about Chaos as well in the post, whereas you didn't.  And while WoW is a big chunk of the market, that doesn't mean WoW's PvP becomes the default behavior for MMOs (To where someone who doesn't like their PvP on its principles becomes someone who 'doesn't like MMO PvP'), any moreso than the fact that WoW has raids means that someone who doesn't like WoW's raids, or raids in general, is "against MMO PvE".

Just because it's being done a lot now doesn't mean that it's inherently the MMO genre's default.

Except that everything in MMOG's that has been PVP has been done the "WoW" way before WoW ever came out, other than UO and the ones you mentioned, were done that way. DAoC was done that way. EQ was done that way. There are more "WoW-like" MMOG's with PVP than there are "not-WoW-like."

For all we know, World of Starcraft can come along with 10 million subscribers and full twitch PvP, and when you say "You know, I don't see how PvP can be fun when it's twitch", I could retort with "Okay, there's your problem, you don't like MMOG PvP".  It'd be equally silly.

I'd love MMOG PVP with twitch. I'm actually enjoying Planetside. But the vast majority of MMOG PVP is NOT TWITCH. You listed the exceptions. WoW is more the standard than the things you listed, has had more games that are like it put out, and has more subscribers than all the others combined. It is a defacto standard until someone comes along and makes something more popular. 

[tazelbain]

I am sure we should add more skill to these game, but I don't think twitch is the skill (maybe as one skill of many).  I suspect the advocates of twitch consider themselves as better than average twitchers hence the advocation is self serving.   I am sure that if the skill these games rewarded was math skills, you would be whining about that the guy who can do linear algebra in his head who keeps owning your ass.  But you would have no problem if the situation was reversed. 

[Telemediocrity]

I suspect the advocates of twitch consider themselves as better than average twitchers hence the advocation is self serving.

Dear god, no.  I suck at CounterStrike.  But the great thing about twitch is that it's fun even when you suck, even when you haven't put any time in.  IMHO, of course.  You can hop onto a CS server, knowing little or nothing about CS, and just enjoy, even if you're getting owned.

Tying 'fun' to 'ingame success' is a big no-no for me.  A good PvP MMO should be like CS, where you're having fun regardless of whether you win or lose.  IMHO, this was one of AC1's huge strengths in PvP.  The kids I know who were dying in every battle were often the most ardently in love with the game.

If we can put linear algebra into PvP, I think that would kick ass as well.

[Morfiend]

Can we serously go back to talking about Warhammer? We understand you are having fun trolling every thread, but it really getting old.

[Arthur_Parker]

Well Elf and Dark Elf were never really options and Empire is out as it may be fairly boring. 

So I'm torn between Goblin, Chaos and Dwarf.  Currently leaning towards Dwarf and travelling asap to Elven lands.  There I can roleplay being incredibly rude to the stuck up bastards, when that wears thin I get to kill Dark Elves and watch Dark Elves kill normal Elves.

[HaemishM]

I imagine I'll end up either Empire or Dwarf, if you can be a Dwarven Slayer type. I've never liked the "evil" races in Warhammer, though if hard-pressed, I'd have to choose Chaos Warriors over any of the others. Especially Orcs.

But then playing a Bitch Elf could be interesting.

[Telemediocrity]

I'll either go Chaos, Dark Elves, or Dwarves.  My top priorities are stealth and runspeed, in that order.

[HaemishM]

I'm pretty sure the Dwarves will have neither. Chaos Warriors might have stealth, but runspeed? Only with a horse.

[Morfiend]

Any one know what the "Evil Human" they are talking about is? I thought that was Chaos, but then he mentioned Chaos later. In the article I read, it said every side had an antithesis.

Human - Chaos
Elves - Dark Elves
Dwarves - Greenskins

Would evil human just fall under human?

I doubt Chaos Warriors will have stealth. Seems there is going to be 4 classes per race, 2 Casters and 2 melee for most. I think he said Greenskins only had one caster, so maybe they have a thief class. I wouldnt be supprised to see a stealth caster class for Chaos, but thats just a guess.

I myself will forsure play Chaos. I will probably have a greenskin alt so I can eat poop. Also, maybe a evil human, depenind on how they do them. But Chaos, defenetly.

[Arthur_Parker]

Pretty sure Evil Human is Chaos, maybe a very recently corrupted part of the Human Empire.  It's probably only going to be Khorne Chaos at release.

[Morfiend]

Pretty sure Evil Human is Chaos, maybe a very recently corrupted part of the Human Empire.  It's probably only going to be Khorne Chaos at release.

If you go and look at the fedex quest explination, it has one for Evil Human and one for Chaos.

[Arthur_Parker]

Oh yeah, strange I read that a few times and missed it each time.  Maybe you can start as Empire and end up Chaos by taking the Evil quest options?  If they feared Human's being the largest side population wise it might make sense to promote the dark side and it fits the IP.

[Hoax]

Human - Too bad it is Empire not Britonian, if I can use those gattling guns or pistol/sword I'm there though
High Elf - Phantom Warrior
Dwarf - Slayer
Orc/Goblin - The one race I would play a caster for, if they do it right the magic should be awesome
Dark Elf - Witch-bitch (nekkid chick that dual wields swords)
Chaos - No interest I have a strong hatred for all things Chaos.

So basically to translate to diku-terms:

Human IF:  I get a ranged attack that has me using a gun.

High Elf IF:  They have a well designed skirmish/melee/range hybrid possibly with limited stealth or at least anti stealth abilities.

Orc/Goblin IF:  The magic at all matches the IP

Dark Elf IF:  They get nothing but bondage elf titties right.

[Azazel]

Going from my knowledge of the TTG:

Evil human could be lower-level-chaos, if they make you work your way from Chaos Cultist to Marauder to Warrior. It depends how they do it since chaos is such an all-pervasive thing in Warhammer. Are they going Khornate, or undivided.

Greenskins in Warhammer only have Shamans really - it's one school of magic, though there's a big difference between an Orc Shaman and a Night Gioblin shaman coked up on magic mushrooms!

Can't see chaos with stealth really. Only if they had a spy class, which is much more a Chaos cultist thing, specifically Tzeentch or Slaanesh (or undivided). Doesn't fit in with Khorne or Nurgle.

Dwarf Slayers are such a strong part of the IP, so I can't see them being left out, if only to differentiate the game and race from things like WoW. However, slayer is really only appropriate for the last stages of any career path ingame, as the idea is that to become a slayer, you've committed some great dishonour and you now seek solace in a heroic death. They then go Troll Slayer/Giant Slayer/Dragon Slayer as they increasingly go after bigger targets as they continue to kill stuff, (constantly failing in their quest for that honourable death). That's fine. But it doesn't really lend itself to becoming a Dwarven engineer after you've been a slayer for awhile (yes I know about the Scottish airship guy in the books, but he was the excption. if they let people change profession after becoming a slayer, it'd be like.. it'd be like letting everyone become Jedi in an OT Star Wars game or something. 


Oh, Telemoron: On dodging projectiles in MMOGs:

Have you ever tried to dodge arrows in real life? It's not all that different to dodging bullets. The onus is really on the one firing the weapon to hit, as they have to lead the target properly, be aware of wind, etc. Just like with a gun. Try it sometime. Just because they let you do it in some MMOGs doesn't mean it's realistic. It's not space invaders.

Dodging magic projectiles. - it depends how you "view" things like Fireballs and so on. You might look at fireballs as big, slow, flying things that go in a single direction (see Diablo). Others might see them as smart missiles. It depends whether the game mechanics/designers/etc decide that you cast a fireball towards the mobs, or if you cast a fireball at a mob. Because, you know, it's fucking magic.

Here's an idea for you, by the way. Go play AC1 again, and stop being a troll/little bitch combo. Go talk to the Peace Corps about your enlistment so you can get sent somewhere that doesn't have internet access...

[Trippy]

I've never played the PnP RP game or looked through the rulebook so I'm going by what I know about the miniatures game. I'm assuming things like mounted units, vehicles (chariots), and war machines will not be playable so that leaves just the foot troops. I don't like playing straight up fighter classes so that will cut down on the possible choices for me.

On the "good" side I've never liked the Empire and the High Elves are pretty bland as well so that leaves the Dwarfs which fortunately do have a lot of interesting foot troops (in fact they might have too many) in large part because they don't have any non-foot units except for the Gyrocopter. Unfortunately that also means putting up with all the RPers with their fake Scottish accents.

So for Dwarfs my picks would be:

• Doomseeker -- Dual axe chain wielding psychos that make Troll Slayers look like pansies. No chance they will made player playable since they are basically super-powerful "suicide" units but it would've fun if they were.

• Engineer -- I like playing support classes.

• Thunderers -- What's not to like about shooting guns?

• Runesmith/Runepriest -- Dwarf equivalent of a spell caster.

• Ironbreaker -- Walking miniature tanks. One of the few pure fighter types I could see myself playing.

• Miners -- Miners can dig tunnels and pop up behind enemy lines in scenarios that allow such things. While actually digging tunnels in an MMORPG is way too much work to put in it'd be cool if they had "prebuilt" tunnels on certain maps with entrances/exits and passages you could open and close with miners a la The Rock in Team Fortress. You would need an equivalent class/skill tree on the Greenskin side since the Skaven aren't in the game so they would need to invent something like Goblin demolition teams a la WarCraft.

Like I said above Empire's pretty bland but if I had to I guess I could play an Engineer (more guns), Warrior Priest or Wizard in a pinch. With High Elves I could do Shadow Warrior (archer/ranger), Archer, or Mage again in a pinch.

I don't like playing evil races but I don't consider the Greenskins evil (they would be Chaotic Neutral in D&D) -- they simply exist to fight including each other if there are no other convenient targets around -- so I could see myself playing them especially if they do the goblins right.

So for the Greenskins my picks would be:

• Night Goblin Fanatic -- Also not going to happen (see Doomseeker above).

• Night Goblin Shaman -- What's not to like about a 'shroom eating pointy-hat robe wearing spell-casting goblin? Well except for the maybe the exploding head part but hey magic is a dangerous thing in WH.

• Night Goblin Squig Herder -- Squig Hoppers probably aren't going to make it into the game (mounted troops) so a cymbal smashing or squigpipe playing Squig Herder is the next best thing.

• Night Goblin Netter -- Root for teh win!

[5150]

'Evil human' might be Norse (stepping stone to Chaos Warrior) they worship chaos but are otherwise just humans with a penchant for fluffy clothing, axes, beer and mayham (so pretty much as close as humans get to being Ork)

Alternatively it could just be 'evil human'. i.e. they live in humanity but work for their own ends from within (Neocromancer for example)

Personally I was planning on being a Necromancer in the original WHO - it looks like I'm just going to have to pick chaos on WAR :-(

[Fargull]

Chaos does not equal evil.

For the most part they go hand in hand, but they do not equate to the same thing in Warhammer.  The evil human was just a disposition, not a mutation by the chaos gods.

[dakitten]

I'm really worried about 'Scenarios', and I hope they don't clone WoW's battlegrounds too much there.  While there are some really good things about them (team balance, fairly even objectives), there are some really negative things as well (clearing out the outside world pvp, artificialness, repetitiveness).  And adding bots to control queue time?  Damn - I signed up for some PvP, and instead I get a 5-10 minute match against bots?  Tying the "fourth style of combat - the Campaign" to this seems rather silly as well.  It just feels wrong to have the fate of the zone tied to 5 minute "king of the hill" matches - it doesn't feel epic, or serious enough.

"Doze stunties have bin up on dat hill all day chief - shud we'z get da boyz and go home now?"

The Campaign system does sound good (what little we know about it right now), but I worry about it progressing too fast, and losing some of it's significance.

[Arthur_Parker]

Penny Arcade

[Wolf]

Penny Arcade

Mhm. I just came here to post that. 

[eldaec]

I do love that comic, and sense I may have to link to it almost as often as the money hat comic over the coming year or so.

[Azazel]

And adding bots to control queue time?  Damn - I signed up for some PvP, and instead I get a 5-10 minute match against bots? 

The fact is that it also has to play like a game, and if adding in bots allows PVP to be a bit more like jumping into an existing round of BF2/CS/etc instead of joining a queue, sitting on your hands for 25 minutes, then seeing you missed your chance to go into the BG because you dared to take a piss while in the queue than I can only see it as a good thing..

[eldaec]

I worry much more about the size of the server population needed to support all these different types of pvp than a I do about bots.

You have 4 different fronts (stunties vs green, human vs chaos, elf vs bondage elf, plus empire & friends vs bizarre nonsensical alliance of chaos and green) plus several different types of pvp within each front, (though the 'types' basically seem to boil down to just daoc style frontier and GW style instances).

Now if they are planning for 20k peak populations per server, then fair enough, but operating on a more normal 3-5k, I don't see this variety being used.

[eldaec]

And the other thing I worry about is this...

In essence, a path straight through in the same discipline makes you what, in other games, is considered "pure." Or if you like a more balanced, hybrid approach, you end up being what most think of as "multi-classed." You'd think that this sort of thing would be a real challenge to balance, but Marvin isn't worried. "It would be a real nightmare if we didn't have this kind of encapsulation that gives control," he says. "Because we split the Fighter from the Adept, we're not trying to balance all the magic with all the weapon attacks... that helps us."

Smite.
Cleric.

The diku world has traditionally felt the need to maintain a chinese wall between support magic and offensive magic. I can see horrible half baked kludges to fix all sorts of percieved imbalance a few months in.

(Obviously actual good games like CoH just flat out ignore this restriction and the sky doesn't fall around them, but mythic have never been very good at correcting balance in a subtle or imaginative manner ;) To be fair this is in part because the pvp focus in daoc makes balance issues more immeadiate and critical than in something like coh, but war will also have that pvp focus ofc...)