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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  News  |  Topic: Raph has left SOE. 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Raph has left SOE.  (Read 32734 times)
sinij
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Reply #35 on: March 27, 2006, 12:42:30 PM

I just don’t see anybody looking at WoW and saying, that innovative or clever. WoW had huge budget and zero ambition, just like majority of Hollywood blockbusters that ride on franchise, brand name and big budget. If anything WoW proves that as long as its not a train-wreck at release and has some content people will playa and pay.

If anything WoW demonstrates that there is much larger previously untapped PvP audience than anybody previously believed.

Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.
HaemishM
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Reply #36 on: March 27, 2006, 01:39:36 PM

Yes, but that PVP audience isn't one that's going to take being azzfucked by Johnny Rottencrotch before they are even out of MOG diapers. That untapped PVP audience wants to PVP and get PVPed when they want to, instead of when Johnny wants them to be.

It lets everyone be wolves without always feeling like sheep.

sinij
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Reply #37 on: March 27, 2006, 01:51:43 PM

You PvPed in WoW, right? The same WoW where single lvl60 rogue can shut down whole zone of lowbies, the same WoW where average players are FARMED by epic-geared “pros” for rank and reputation, the same WoW where /spit becomes equivalent of universal greeting?

Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.
HaemishM
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Reply #38 on: March 27, 2006, 01:57:44 PM

You PvPed in WoW, right? The same WoW where single lvl60 rogue can shut down whole zone of lowbies, the same WoW where average players are FARMED by epic-geared “pros” for rank and reputation, the same WoW where /spit becomes equivalent of universal greeting?

Yep, and I got ganked in Hillsbrad by people twice my level too. But I chose it by being on a PVP server, or by turning on my switch. I CHOSE the time and place it could happen to me. I much prefer that to "It could happen anytime anywhere."

In other words, it's consensual, and thus not like old school UO. And not niche, because the mass market gets real tired of getting ganked when they aren't expecting it.

shiznitz
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Reply #39 on: March 27, 2006, 02:24:00 PM

Who would win in a fight to the death between sinij and Televangelist?

The world.

I have never played WoW.
sinij
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Reply #40 on: March 28, 2006, 06:53:23 AM

Your whole ‘choosing’ argument doesn’t fly and to me sounds like rationalization. Here is why.

Imagine how ideal consent system should work – player get to chose exactly when and with who he gets to fight having all possible information to make informed decision. As such what player will ever chose a losing fight? If ideal situation doesn’t work, why do you think less then ideal situation would?

Consent should start moment you enter the world, if it doesn’t whole system falls apart.

Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.
Xilren's Twin
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Reply #41 on: March 28, 2006, 08:14:06 AM

Your whole ‘choosing’ argument doesn’t fly and to me sounds like rationalization. Here is why.

Imagine how ideal consent system should work – player get to chose exactly when and with who he gets to fight having all possible information to make informed decision. As such what player will ever chose a losing fight? If ideal situation doesn’t work, why do you think less then ideal situation would?

Consent should start moment you enter the world, if it doesn’t whole system falls apart.


Actually, the reason your viewpoint doesn't work is b/c people are not entering the world at equivalent competitive states, and Im not talking about player skill. 

So long as there is a power advancement curve in a given game, the entering player is at a significant disadvantage compared to existing players who simply have accumlated more powerful avatars before the competition even begins.  Even if you like PvP, it takes a special mindset (hence why it's a niche market) to want to enter a competition knowing you're starting off behind the curve and thus your odds of winning any given competition are low, from day 1.  Unless you can choose WHEN engage in said competition (or to put it another way, when to risk being vulnerable).

Playing SB again for the past week has really driven that home to me.  Even beyond the level curve, if you don't enter the game with a guild already, you are at a significant disadvantage.  If you enter an old sever with established heavyweights even with a guild, you're at a significant disadvantage.  Hell even SB lets you skill up to R2 before throwing you to the wolves on the mainland.  And while there is certainly alot LESS choice in SB over when to fight, it's still present with things like escapability and stealth powers.

I'd bring up the difference between PvP and PK but i think you know that.
The mass market seems to like competitive PvP but only when they want it.
Why is that a bad thing?

Xilren

"..but I'm by no means normal." - Schild
HaemishM
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Reply #42 on: March 28, 2006, 08:35:12 AM

Your whole ‘choosing’ argument doesn’t fly and to me sounds like rationalization. Here is why.

Imagine how ideal consent system should work – player get to chose exactly when and with who he gets to fight having all possible information to make informed decision. As such what player will ever chose a losing fight? If ideal situation doesn’t work, why do you think less then ideal situation would?

Consent should start moment you enter the world, if it doesn’t whole system falls apart.


Most PK's I know ever choose any fight that isn't a slam dunk win for them.

Players have shown with their wallets over and over again that allowing them to choose when they want to be vulnerable and when they DON'T want to be vulnerable is what the mass market wants. You can't MAKE someone like PVP if they don't, and trying to make gamers "PLAY2CRUSH" only means you don't have shit for a user base, especially if your game is buggy as fuck.

sinij
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Reply #43 on: March 28, 2006, 09:57:17 AM

Quote
trying to make gamers "PLAY2CRUSH" only means you don't have shit for a user base, especially if your game is buggy as fuck.

I disagree, just look at countless fucktards engaging in massive incestfest they call battlegrounds in WoW. FPS, chess, competetive sports and human history shows that at large humans are very competetive and prone to *2CRUSH.

Its just MMOGs as an industry is too young and underdeveloped to properly capitalize on competitive behavior of humans. Just look at sports, rare few are not directly competitive in a play2crush way and they have HUGE followings. I bet in 20-30 years the only non-PvP games out there will be educational titles aimed at pre-school kids. Just look at your typical ‘consent-only’ games, they are competitive as fuck, where is your consent switch to being outleveled, people having better raid guilds and connections, people having better loot or being more famous then you? So how about we skip beating around the bushes and evolve to direct PvP?

Quote
Most PK's I know never choose any fight that isn't a slam dunk win for them.

Most players I know never choose a fight that isn't a slam dunk win for them. Just look at PvE, generally consent only thing, it is all designed around succession of slam dunk wins. Choose is a key here. Given a choice players will not fight losing fight.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2006, 10:12:22 AM by sinij »

Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.
HaemishM
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Reply #44 on: March 28, 2006, 11:35:46 AM

Quote
trying to make gamers "PLAY2CRUSH" only means you don't have shit for a user base, especially if your game is buggy as fuck.

I disagree, just look at countless fucktards engaging in massive incestfest they call battlegrounds in WoW.

Battlegrounds in WoW are the penultimate in consent-only design, NOT Play2Crush. You keep trying to argue that Play2Crush games will somehow automagically garner mass market subscription numbers, but then you try to use WoW's battlegrounds to prove it. You are wrong.

El Gallo
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Reply #45 on: March 28, 2006, 11:59:52 AM

I never knew noncompete clauses were banned in California outside business sales, that's pretty interesting.

I'm also guessing Bioware.

This post makes me want to squeeze into my badass red jeans.
sinij
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Reply #46 on: March 28, 2006, 12:07:20 PM

WoW battlegrounds show that there are people willing to PvP, despite what many of you (not you Haemish) trying to say. They also prove that you can’t mix PvP+ and PvP-, as Blizzard hoped at release, and expect any kind of fun PvP to happen. BGs also show that static and instanced PvP is as far as you can take it PvP-wise in PvE game.

Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.
Cheddar
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Reply #47 on: March 28, 2006, 09:56:39 PM

I disagree, just look at countless fucktards engaging in massive incestfest they call battlegrounds in WoW. FPS, chess, competetive sports and human history shows that at large humans are very competetive and prone to *2CRUSH.

This is a fucking moronic statement.  BG in WoW AT ITS BEST takes over 15 minutes to get into.  THATS ON A DOUBLE KILL COUNT WEEKEND FOR THAT BG.  On an off day a good time is 30 minutes. 

Off times are above 2 hoursTHIS IS ON A HEAVY SERVER THAT IS RELATIVELY BALANCE COMPARED TO OTHER SERVERS.

What does this mean?  Number 1: wait to enjoy an avenue of play which you are otherwise hindered to enjoy.  Number 2:  Quit job and farm BG, because you will not have the shiny unless you join a strange uber guild.

No Nerf, but I put a link to this very thread and I said that you all can guarantee for my purity. I even mentioned your case, and see if they can take a look at your lawn from a Michigan perspective.
Signe
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Reply #48 on: March 28, 2006, 10:22:20 PM

Since they're in the same place, Raph and Ashen and Sachant should get together and start their own MMO company!  Or go work for Bioware.  Or have a threesome.

It's all good.

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
Furiously
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Reply #49 on: March 29, 2006, 10:22:57 AM

How mean of you to leave Lum out.

schild
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Reply #50 on: March 29, 2006, 11:56:05 AM

How mean of you to leave Lum out.

Lum has a job... It's a lot less funny when explained.
Furiously
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Reply #51 on: March 29, 2006, 12:17:52 PM

I mentally lump recently employed with recently hired...
« Last Edit: March 29, 2006, 12:36:19 PM by Furiously »

Lantyssa
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Reply #52 on: March 29, 2006, 12:19:01 PM

I thought Raph moved to San Diego, San Jose or one of those Sans in California when he took the last position with Sony.  Unless he came back, which is entirely possible.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Gutboy Barrelhouse
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Reply #53 on: March 29, 2006, 04:53:28 PM

Raph is living in San Diego, even though he posted a picture of his backyard that was covered in hail recently.
Lantyssa
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Reply #54 on: March 30, 2006, 10:51:06 AM

Do I lose fangirl points for not being sure?

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Riggswolfe
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Reply #55 on: March 30, 2006, 02:27:49 PM

A Saviour?  Not for me.  I do like a lot of what Raph does, but I would like to see him tempered by someone that can nurture his good ideas and cull the impractical ones.

This is exactly what I'd like to see. Raph has awesome ideas. Even when I wanted to curse him for all eternity for SWG, I appreciated some of the ideas in it. If he had someone to say "No, that's too much!" he'd be alot more successful IMO.

On another note, Sinj, you are a very delusional person. Your kind of game was tried a decade ago and people left it in droves. (UO). It was only "fixed" when the devs gave players the choice not to be ganked all the time. There is a reason PvE with some consentual pvp is the norm and it's not that devs are too pussy to make your kind of game. It's that your game fails. Every time. Unless you're in Korea. But they're crazy anyway.

Edit: My first thought on hearing this was "woohoo, now Raph can tell us what really happened with SWG" Followed by "fuck, they probably made him sign something saying he'll never talk about it"
« Last Edit: March 30, 2006, 02:30:49 PM by Riggswolfe »

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
WindupAtheist
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Reply #56 on: March 31, 2006, 02:03:42 PM

Riggs, Haemish?  Trying to convince Sinij that the MMO world isn't secretly waiting for someone to bring back the Dread Lord era, so that he can azzrape carebears while the crowd goes wild?  Good fucking luck, and welcome to my world as of 12 months ago.  :-D

"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
"Yeah, it's pretty awesome."  --  Me
Ironwood
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Reply #57 on: April 03, 2006, 05:16:09 AM

Switch/consent PvP is like having sex with your sister, while it might be occasionally enjoyable you know its not how things should be done and such relationship has no future.


Tasty.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Riggswolfe
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Reply #58 on: April 03, 2006, 05:58:11 AM

Riggs, Haemish?  Trying to convince Sinij that the MMO world isn't secretly waiting for someone to bring back the Dread Lord era, so that he can azzrape carebears while the crowd goes wild?  Good fucking luck, and welcome to my world as of 12 months ago.  :-D

I used to get into vehement arguments with people like sinj until I realized it is like arguing with an idiot savant. Only one side understands reality.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
sinij
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Reply #59 on: April 04, 2006, 03:09:11 PM

Are you so sure that you 'understand reality' of our disagreement, all of the factors and nuances involved, and know the absolute and only answer? How can you be sure that is the answer if you never question it?

At least our feelings are mutual, only difference is that I understand where you coming from and it is obvious from your posts that you lack similar insights.

I have news for you - your ‘war’ is long since over. You can now go home

Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.
HaemishM
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Reply #60 on: April 05, 2006, 10:12:05 AM

If the war is over, we all lost.

Ironwood
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Reply #61 on: April 06, 2006, 09:23:01 AM

Was it the Predators or the Aliens that won though ?

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Furiously
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Reply #62 on: April 06, 2006, 11:57:36 AM

Was it the Predators or the Aliens that won though ?

The audience was the big looser.

Sky
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Reply #63 on: April 06, 2006, 12:12:40 PM


RIGGS...err I mean PREDATOR!!
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