Griefer being crucified (in game) in Roma Victor

[Roac]

What it means is that more and more politicians will get on the "video games are evil" bandwagon and when enough of them do we're fucked.

They're not going to take RV to task for historical representation.  They'll wait until the next GTA-esque game comes out, where the player is raping hookers for points, and which actually has a broad userbase, not the niche that RV will.

[Roac]

Are you really this simple?  Is that your definition of fundamentalism?  Fires and riots?  Our fundamentalists don't riot, they get on TV decrying a lack of "values;" they write to their congressman.  Then laws get written limiting the sale of violent games.  And games get blamed for real life violence. 

...which is the worst that happens in the US, and nothing at all like the Islam fundies.  Which was my point.  Apples and oranges.  They're nothing alike.

And I didn't realize that there was a silence on the nature of Roman torture techniques.   

There isn't, sorry you missed the sarcasm.  Nobody has gotten up in arms about representation of crucifixion before, no religious reason for them to have, and therefore no expectation they will start now.

[Mesozoic]

Are you really this simple?  Is that your definition of fundamentalism?  Fires and riots?  Our fundamentalists don't riot, they get on TV decrying a lack of "values;" they write to their congressman.  Then laws get written limiting the sale of violent games.  And games get blamed for real life violence. 

...which is the worst that happens in the US, and nothing at all like the Islam fundies.  Which was my point.  Apples and oranges.  They're nothing alike.

Now we're getting into a much larger issue.  If this was the time and place, I would argue that they are very similar.  Different methods, same goal.

[Roac]

Now we're getting into a much larger issue.  If this was the time and place, I would argue that they are very similar.  Different methods, same goal.

Requesting change using an existing political process is identical to what secular political parties do, and worlds apart from using terrorism to attempt to motivate political change.  Stop being a twat by trying to confuse the two, merely because you happen to disagree with their argument.

[Xanthippe]

Are you really this simple?  Is that your definition of fundamentalism?  Fires and riots?  Our fundamentalists don't riot, they get on TV decrying a lack of "values;" they write to their congressman.  Then laws get written limiting the sale of violent games.  And games get blamed for real life violence. 

...which is the worst that happens in the US, and nothing at all like the Islam fundies.  Which was my point.  Apples and oranges.  They're nothing alike.

Now we're getting into a much larger issue.  If this was the time and place, I would argue that they are very similar.  Different methods, same goal.

Hmm, let's see.

Fundies get upset, write their congressperson, hold peaceful demonstrations, and lobby for a change in the laws (which usually does not come to be).

Islamists get upset, participate in violent demonstrations, advocate the death of those with whom they disagree, and bomb KFC.

I'm an atheist.  I strongly believe in a person's right to his or her opinion, and the peaceful expression of that opinion. It boggles my mind when people compare Christian fundamentalists to Islamic fundamentalists.  The fundies have become The Giant Big Boogeyman.  This is insane.  The comparison is completely bogus and unrealistic, and I can only imagine those who perpetuate this myth know very little or nothing about Islamism (which is different from Islam; look it up if you don't know the difference).

I'm not at all worried about the Christian Right in the US and what they will/can do to video games.  The Christian Right has, in the past, been upset since dime novels, through comic books, rock n roll, D&D and now video games.  Big deal.  Slap a label on video games, fine.  Music, fine.  I don't care.  It's not restricting my right to buy it.

But could I even walk down the street in Afghanistan or Pakistan alone, to go into a store to purchase a comic book, cd or video game unmolested?

Apples and oranges is right.

[HaemishM]

Setting aside for the moment any argument of historical accuracy.

I'm guessing you start the game as a Roman citizen, and as such, you shouldn't ever be crucified.  That was considered too cruel and humiliating a punishment for a Roman.   That's also why St. Paul was able to get whisked off to Rome for his trial, and when convicted he was beheaded rather than crucified.

You can play as a Roman citizen or as a Gaul.

EDIT: The Apples and Oranges being compared here should NOT be Christianity and Islam. It should be Western fundies vs. Middle Eastern fundies. The problem isn't the religion, the problem is the culture of the people's who hold that religion. Western Muslims in say, the US didn't burn down KFC's over the Muhammed cartoons, but Middle Eastern ones did. Middle Eastern Christians cause just as much chaos as Middle Eastern Muslims... see Beirut in the mid-80's for an example.

The Middle Eastern culture, no matter the religion, seems to put less value on life there, IMO.

[Strazos]

Some Christian fundies blow up abortion clincs and gun down doctors....

[HaemishM]

Some Christian fundies blow up abortion clincs and gun down doctors....

They just don't do it en masse, filling their streets with their brand of arsontardery.

[Roac]

Some Christian fundies blow up abortion clincs and gun down doctors....

Libertarians have blown stuff up.  Liberals have blown stuff up.  Exceptions in all three cases do not do anything to describe the whole, however, and it is immature and irrational to continue to try and do so.

[Lantyssa]

What it means is that more and more politicians will get on the "video games are evil" bandwagon and when enough of them do we're fucked.

If we were to stop adding things to games because we are scared someone will object to the content... then we can just shut the gaming sites down now.

Despite all the legislation only a few bills have been successfully passed, most of which were struck down as unconstitutional and the rest have injunctions on them.  The more the politicians push this, the more the courts side with video games, and the more our case becomes unassailable.

[Venkman]

This idea is cool and all, but the game's not live. Given that the people they'd want to "punish" with this system are the very same ones who would be the most interested in such narcissistic public recognition of themselves, I can see the system breaking under that strain alone. You don't solve this problem by calling even more attention to people who do this shit to call attention to themselves.

They should just go the Free-man route. Instead of crucification, their entire account is full PvP+ for X number of days (progressively grown until banned) with debuffed statistics. Won't solve everything, and certainly not possible in companies worried about their PR. But it could work for games that aren't even dreaming at old EQ1 levels, much less GW/WoW ones.

[HaemishM]

I beileve you are ALWAYS PVP+ in Roma Victor.

[Telemediocrity]

I like the idea that the PvP system is based on 'weak spots' - it opens up a lot of opportunities for situational treachery, lurking in the shadows, that kind of thing.

[eldaec]

Also, there are no Christians in England.

Happily, ever since the whole Life of Brian fiasco, any christian in Britain that tries to complain about something as ridiculous as this gets pointed at and laughed at.

[WindupAtheist]

A)  It's an indie MMO.  The mainstream is never going to give a shit.  It could have you raping Jesus in the ass with a chair leg for XP and nobody outside of boards like this would even notice.

B)  Even if someone did notice, the mere existence of crucifixion in a depiction of Rome isn't likely to raise many hackles.  Shit, if any fundamentalists do take note, they'll probably subscribe so that they can play at being around in the early days of Christianity.

C)  Thus the cross-section of people who notice, people who give a shit, and people who are offended is likely to be vanishingly small.  Does anyone else remember the "OMG HOLOCAUST" predictions of controversy that preceeded WW2 Online?  How about the preposterous hand-wringing some even did before the release of DAoC, about the notion of fantasy pseudo-Brits fighting fantasy pseudo-Irish?  Throw this crucifixion crap on the same pile of manufactured  MMO controversies that the real world doesn't give a shit about.

[Llava]

Actually, I was just making a joke.  I wasn't making any particular political statement, I just thought it might get a laugh.  Instead, you humorless fuckers started debating the differences between Islam and Christianity.

[StGabe]

This accomplishes two things:

1) Exactly the same stuff that a regular ban would do.
2) It gives more attention to griefers.

#1 is fine.  But WoW, EQ2, et al, already ban people for being idiots.  So it's not like it's something new.  #2 is partially self-defeating because it gives attention to people who really, just wanted attention in the first place.  Where it helps is that it also releases, to the public, direct recognition of the fact that #1 is taking place.  WoW may silently ban twice as many people as this game will but they do it in a tidy, quiet manner such that public perception may be that they rarely or never ban.

That said from what I have heard, current MMO's would love to publicize more info about who they ban and why they ban them but don't for legal reasons.  Gordon Walton told us at a meeting that he would love to spill his guts about nasty things that some players who had banned had done but that legally it was important for SOE to keep all that stuff confidential.

Thus something like this can backfire in a completely different manner.  The player who is banned on the crucifix will sit there talking about how unjust the banning was and how the Nazi devs banned his character because they didn't like his name or because he pkilled one of their characters, etc., and the devs will be legally prevented from saying, "no dipshit, we banned you because you duped 1,000,000 gold and here are the logs to prove it".  Etc.

In general I only see this causing problems.

[StGabe]

I think the best way to do this would be to have a crucifixion field where banned players were crucified.  However just add a random model to the field when you ban someone.  Don't let them actually play the character, communicate with others, or recognize the crucified victim as them.

This is a cool in-game demonstration that idiot players ARE being banned and yet it doesn't give specific attention to the particular griefers for their exploits and avoids the problem of having to bicker with griefers about whether the devs were justified in banning them.

[Lantyssa]

I cannot imagine the character on the cross will have access during this period, or at least not allowed to interact with others in any fashion.

[Big Gulp]

Western Muslims in say, the US didn't burn down KFC's over the Muhammed cartoons, but Middle Eastern ones did.

US Muslims also didn't hold up signs saying, "Behead those who call Islam violent", British Muslims did.  I don't think that speaks so much to our Muslims being assimilated as it does to our Muslims not being as numerous and knowing that Americans will shoot their asses if they try that.  These people are not to be trusted, period.  They'll push things as far as they feel they can comfortably get away with, but the pushing won't stop.

They're flat-out, irredeemable savages.

[Samwise]

US Muslims also didn't hold up signs saying, "Behead those who call Islam violent", British Muslims did.

If somebody posted a picture of it on Fark, it must be true!

[Big Gulp]

If somebody posted a picture of it on Fark, it must be true!

Funny, I didn't know the AP swiped photoshopped images from Fark.

[Samwise]

US Muslims also didn't hold up signs saying, "Behead those who call Islam violent", British Muslims did.

Surely you can see how I thought you were referring to the above photoshopped image rather than either of the actual photos you posted above.

[Telemediocrity]

I have to think that last guy has a strong sense of humor.

[Strazos]

Libertarians have blown stuff up.  Liberals have blown stuff up.  Exceptions in all three cases do not do anything to describe the whole, however, and it is immature and irrational to continue to try and do so.

So....what, you're saying all fundalmentalist Muslims (which is a stupid title anyway, with stupid conotations) blow stuff up? I don't understand what you're trying to say...


Well, really I do, but it's a stupid fucking argument. Stop pulling this shit, you're trying to make a point where there's no point to be made. Why do you even bother?

[Big Gulp]

Surely you can see how I thought you were referring to the above photoshopped image rather than either of the actual photos you posted above.

Heh, yep.  I wasn't directly quoting in my first post, I was just being a smartass, but it looks like someone else beat me to it.

[Telemediocrity]

As a side note which the photoshopped image reminded me of, I've always loved the "be-" prefix.  It really makes any word into an interesting word!  "Head", "stride", "side", "dazzle", "jewel", "spectacled", etcetera.  The first usages of the words must have seemed especially witty at the time.

"What if a man was beside his [/i]head[/i]?"

"He'd be... "be-headed!"

"Sheer brilliance!"

Of course, the word "dazzle" is kind of fun to begin with ("Spirit fingers, guys!") so the be- prefix is just the icing on the cake.

[Roac]

So....what, you're saying all fundalmentalist Muslims (which is a stupid title anyway, with stupid conotations) blow stuff up?

Not all.  Fundamentalist Islam, however, has a philosophy of inhumane, intolerant, anti-west,  hardline, and most of all violent approaches to the world.  Organizations such as Al Quaida, the Hammas, Taliban, Hizballah and others like them are all considered social manifestations of this view.  And yes, they tend to support blowing stuff and/or people up as a mix of punnishment, retribution, and visiting God's wrath on Infidels.  I'm sure there are some very pleasant people in these groups, or out of them.  Generally though, they're not.

Christian fundamentalists don't do those things in that sense.  There are some bad apples, but the philosophy isn't geared to blow things up or kill people.  That doesn't mean it's better than Islam; it wasn't so long ago that it was Christians going around burning people, and Muslems treating others with respect.  It has far more to do with secular culture than religion, and my feeling is the religion is being exploited by political forces in the region instead of the other way around.  Still, it is what it is.

[Strazos]

For the sake of clarification, define "Fundamentalist."

[Roac]

For the sake of clarification, define "Fundamentalist."

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fundamentalist

[Azazel]

Ok, as for the Christian symbology and the religious right's bunched panties in AMERICA, keep in mind this game is built in BRITAIN. So what Americans get all pissy about means fuckall.

Must be on the special England internet then.  You're right, no Americans will ever see it.  Also, there are no Christians in England.  So this is a great thing for the industry.  Your argument is air-tight.

Damn, I keep forgetting that regardless of where we live, we mustn't offend the religious Americans. Because that would be impolite.

[Llava]

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?board=23.0

[Strazos]

For the sake of clarification, define "Fundamentalist."

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fundamentalist

Dictionary.com has gotten better over the years. I just put in some oddball terms, like Reification, and the definition pretty much works.

[Nazrat]

As a religious American and, arguably, a fundamentalist, I could care less about someone being crucified in game.  Fortunately, most educated Christians realize that the Romans used more than one cross during their history.  As far back as Kirk Douglas and Spartacus, most Americans, including religious folk, learned that the cross on your church steeple was not the only one in existence.

But, just as a precaution, I am going to email this thread to my super secret religious right list serve.  After that, I will check my stock of bottled water and dehydrated food before I load my car with fertilizer to go out and blow up a computer parts store.  Damn infidels.

[Strazos]

Make sure they're Dell parts.