Griefer being crucified (in game) in Roma Victor

[Mesozoic]

Must be on the special England internet then.  You're right, no Americans will ever see it.  Also, there are no Christians in England.  So this is a great thing for the industry.  Your argument is air-tight.

There are plenty of Christians over there....but they're mostly not as fanatical as the kind of American we are talking about, and thus, not as likely to go into a fit over something in a game the may not even play.

So there are no plans to market this in the US at all?  When people unfamiliar with games see this, they will understand and appreciate the difference between Roma Victor and WoW?  Or hell, even Roma Victor and Quake?  And at a time when the industry is being scrutinized by legislators, this is a good thing? 

Sure, they have the right to put crucifixion in.  But is it responsible?  And by that I mean does it help or hurt the games industry and the average gamer?

[Dren]

My money is on the first griefer being named...

Jesus or some variant.

Next?

StopLookingatMySack
ALittleHelpHere
ChiropracticSession
ThisAllYaGot
TisAFleshWound
CantReachMyItch
WallHanging
SplintersHurt
WhatNoFootRest

 

[Nebu]

And finally, what this kind of public punishment does is create good public perception of the community. It makes the members of the community feel that the makers of the game are actually making a conscious effort to control the fucktardery rampant in anonymous gameplay with PVP. Had UO tried this, we might not have had quite so many defections of non-PKers because they would have felt that complaining about unfair PK's would have accomplished something. As it was, they didn't and left the game, which led to Trammel. It isn't about punishing the griefers so much as it is showing the public that yes, we do care about you and we are doing something.

Had there been some public floggings in EQ1 over ninjalooting, it would probably not have been nearly the problem it turned into.

I agree with your logic here and that the spectacle, while it may be ineffective in stopping griefers, may have a positive effect on community building.

[Lantyssa]

Griefers are going to be griefers regardless.  I won't argue that some do it for attention, but some are like Rasix said and just enjoy messing with people.  Whether you nail them on a cross, silently ban them, or ignore them completely they will do what they feel like as long as they are having fun.

Haemish is right though, at least the community sees results.  Think of any situation where you or others reported someone.  Did you get a reasuring response? Nope, the official policy is to not talk about punishments or if any were even handed out.  "We are aware of the complaint and looking into the situation."

[HaemishM]

Ok, as for the Christian symbology and the religious right's bunched panties in AMERICA, keep in mind this game is built in BRITAIN. So what Americans get all pissy about means fuckall.

Must be on the special England internet then.  You're right, no Americans will ever see it.  Also, there are no Christians in England.  So this is a great thing for the industry.  Your argument is air-tight.

Sure, Americans will play it, they just won't be able to do fuckall about it seeing as how legally what Americans think has no bearing. If their panties are bunched, they can just stay bunched and not play the game. Much like my panties have to stay bunched over the religious conversion thing going on in Afghanistan now, because I'm not a citizen of Afghanistan.

[Khaldun]

On the griefers-want-attention argument, I think basically it's right to say it's a case-by-case basis, and moreover, that Haemish is right that all communities want to know that community standards exist. This is one of the things I tend to go on about when I get wound up about the problem of sovereignty: when all enforcement is done privately, behind closed doors, many people tend to assume it's not going on at all. When a developer says, "Yes, we just got out the ban stick", but there's nothing tangibly visible in the gameworld that shows the sign of the ban stick having been used, many players simply tend to think it's not happening.

However, locking up a griefer's character, whether in this form or any other, does tend to be a distincentive only insamuch as the particular character is needed to grief. If a level 1 character can grief just as happily as a level 60, then griefing is a disposable function. It's only when you get the peculiar combination of a need for high-level power to grief effectively and no social consequences for griefing that you probably have to resort to many such suspensions/crucifixtions/what have you. In WoW, a level 60 who has any ambition at all to join the endgame isn't going to ninjaloot or get a reputation for being a serious assmunch because it may cost them endgame access. If on the other hand they don't care about the endgame and they're bored, then a level 60 essentially has open skies for griefing, with the only limit being that you can't be much more than a nuisance to lower-level characters on a PvP server due to the lack of a serious death penalty.

------

I am on the other hand seriously unconvinced that Roma Victor is making a mistake because crucifiixtion will somehow disturb the tender sensibilities of American Christian gamers or cast gaming into wide disrepute. Anybody who responds that way hasn't bothered to go take a look at the game's design specifications. They didn't just pull this punishment out of a hat; this isn't just the usual gamer-dork thing of looking for the most absurdly over the top hyperviolent representation to communicate badassedness. You might not care for the whole idea, but they're making a pretty serious run at setting this game in a quasi-realistic historical context. Anybody watch HBO's series Rome? It didn't exactly pull any punches on similar matters, and I don't recall a long line of fundamentalists calling for boycotts of HBO over the series. I actually think this is misjudging many Christians, in fact: quite a few of them, even fundamentalists, actually have an interest in historically grounded representations of Roman civilization; it's deeply imbued into their religious scripture. If this was a futuristic first-person shooter where one of your special combo moves was "crucify", yeah, sure, many people would squawk that this trivializes Christianity, with some justification. But it's not, and the appearance of crucifixtion in the game is wholly consistent with its declared aesthetic sensibility, which I take to be basically modelled on the series "Rome" and the film "Gladiator" (it's actually set in same time period as "Gladiator"). Actually, I can't find anything on the site, but given the time period, it's entirely possible that players could actually BE early Christians, or encounter early Christian communities as NPCs. So there potentially could even be a draw to Christians rather than something negative.

[Llava]

It comes down to whether in-game consequences of any sort will actually deter griefers.

The answer, of course, depends on the individual griefer.  Some will care.  Some won't.  On the bright side, that's at least some that will be deterred.

[HaemishM]

I think Roma Victor is actually set in the time period BEFORE Christ.

[VickeVire]

So you didn't catch the time when the game is set in your 5 minutes of beta?

[Khaldun]

Nope, it's set in 180 AD, under the Emperor Commodius. (The guy played by Joachim Phoenix in Gladiator).

[shiznitz]

EQ2 added snowballs. Roma should let players fling cow dung, eggs, rotten fruit, etc at the crucified.

[schild]

Roma Victor should add vomitoriums and lots of orgies. This crucifixion stuff is too softcore.

[Gutboy Barrelhouse]

I was under the impression that the player is banned for 7 days, so while you can look at the avatar on the cross, the player will not be able to login and "play" on the cross after the initial crucifixion RP.

[Moaner]

Cynewulf, (in real life a 27 year-old electrical engineer from Flint, Michigan, USA)...

I'm 27 years old and live about 15 minutes from Flint, Michigan.  Crazy.

[Mesozoic]

Cynewulf, (in real life a 27 year-old electrical engineer from Flint, Michigan, USA)...

I'm 27 years old and live about 15 minutes from Flint, Michigan.  Crazy.

Are you hanging from two wood planks, by chance?

[WindupAtheist]

I think after the game comes out, Jesus should spawn and you should be able to pwn him and become the new Savior.  I mean, we all hate it when the storyline of a game is locked up by being taken from an existing IP, right?

[Moaner]

Are you hanging from two wood planks, by chance?

No, but I may have to try this Roma Victor thing now.  I can not think of anything I'd like to do more in an MMO than get crucified and watch PCs chuck garbage at my rotting corpse.

[Xanthippe]

Sure, they have the right to put crucifixion in.  But is it responsible?  And by that I mean does it help or hurt the games industry and the average gamer?

"Sure, you have the _right_ to do it.  But's it's not the _responsible_ thing to do."

I had problems with this argument when I was first presented with it back in high school and I have problems with it today, 30 years later.

First, not every game needs to help The Games Industry.

Second, not every person - indeed, many persons - will not be offended by this.

Third, consider this:  it is actually a selling point for some.

I'm way more likely to buy a game about Rome that publicly punishes griefers by crucifixion - which is both historically accurate _and_ makes sense in that sitting on a cross for 7 days just isn't fun - than one which silently disappears them.

Maybe I'm perverse, but it appeals to me in a big way.  If nothing else it will provide amusement.  Frankly, most mmos tend to lack amusement, which is interesting considering they are supposed to _be_ amusements.

[sinij]

I'm so going to roll a toon named Jesus to PK newbies with....

[heck]

How about this for a punishment: allow the griefer to be attacked by level 1's and not be able to attack back for an hour.  Or, better yet, flag the griefer for a period of time to the griefee, again not being able to attack back. 

[Paelos]

Any Christian who gets upset about crucifiction in a Roman game needs to crack a history book. Hell, even just read the bible closer. Jesus wasn't alone on that cross in those final days.

[Llava]

Any Christian who gets upset about crucifiction in a Roman game needs to crack a history book. Hell, even just read the bible closer. Jesus wasn't alone on that cross in those final days.

Mohammed had a face, too.  That argument didn't seem to work, though.

[Big Gulp]

Setting aside for the moment any argument of historical accuracy.

I'm guessing you start the game as a Roman citizen, and as such, you shouldn't ever be crucified.  That was considered too cruel and humiliating a punishment for a Roman.   That's also why St. Paul was able to get whisked off to Rome for his trial, and when convicted he was beheaded rather than crucified.

[Roac]

Mohammed had a face, too.  That argument didn't seem to work, though.

Soon as you find where the Bible bans historical representation, let me know.  And since there appears to be confusion, Christianity != Islam.

[WindupAtheist]

When I mentioned this in Ventrilo, every single person wanted to know what game it was so they could look it up.  Bad publicity my ass.

[Samwise]

I'm guessing you start the game as a Roman citizen

You guess wrong.  From the FAQ it sounds like you start the game as a barbarian or a slave, and have to work at it if you want to become a bona fide Roman citizen.

Nifty.

[5150]

Must be on the special England internet then.  You're right, no Americans will ever see it.  Also, there are no Christians in England.  So this is a great thing for the industry.  Your argument is air-tight.

There are plenty of Christians over there....but they're mostly not as fanatical as the kind of American we are talking about, and thus, not as likely to go into a fit over something in a game the may not even play.

To be fair over here MMORPG's are still pretty niche so those this is most likely to offend are those probably least likely to find out about it. Until someone tips off our tabloids about it in which case _everyone_ would suddenly have an opinion about it (we do bandwagons really well over here)

[Mesozoic]

Mohammed had a face, too.  That argument didn't seem to work, though.

Soon as you find where the Bible bans historical representation, let me know.  And since there appears to be confusion, Christianity != Islam.

Wow, way to not understand wtf we're talking about.

[Roac]

Mohammed had a face, too.  That argument didn't seem to work, though.

Soon as you find where the Bible bans historical representation, let me know.  And since there appears to be confusion, Christianity != Islam.

Wow, way to not understand wtf we're talking about.

There is an Islamic mandate, per the Koran, against showing the Prophet's face.  There is no such mandate in the Bible against representing history (or crucifixions).  Llava was comparing apples and oranges.


Edit:  Oh, another thought.  It's not like hordes of fundamentalist Christians play MMOGs anyway.  Devil's toolset and all that.  Sort of like asking whether Rockstar is hurt because the Southern Baptist Convention doesn't play GTA, I think it's a nonsensical question.

[Soln]

Doesn't SL do this already with a cornfield -- warp the naughty person to their own instance for a time-out? 

[Strazos]

Gemstone III/IV use to warp you to "Consoulation Lounges" or lock you in jail cells.

Hell, some of the more petty crimes in the game, such as pickpocketing PCs/NPCs, would result in either being locked up in jail for about an hour, or being put in the stocks at the bank (a VERY visible location).

[Mesozoic]

There is an Islamic mandate, per the Koran, against showing the Prophet's face.  There is no such mandate in the Bible against representing history (or crucifixions).  Llava was comparing apples and oranges.


Edit:  Oh, another thought.  It's not like hordes of fundamentalist Christians play MMOGs anyway.  Devil's toolset and all that.  Sort of like asking whether Rockstar is hurt because the Southern Baptist Convention doesn't play GTA, I think it's a nonsensical question.

Llava was speaking generally about the tendency of religious fundamentalists.

And I have no idea how many fundamentalist Christians play MMOGs, but I know that its irrelevant.  All they have to do is see it or hear about it.  Its another kerosene-soaked log on the fire.  We're talking about the people who honestly thinkthat Doom caused Columbine.  Facts are useless. 

So, yay!  Roma Victor gets press.  Grats.  What do the rest of us get?  Another "example" of gamer deviance.

[Roac]

Llava was speaking generally about the tendency of religious fundamentalists.

So... you're worried Christian fundies are going to start bombing KFC when they hear about this?  Is that how this is relevant?

And I have no idea how many fundamentalist Christians play MMOGs, but I know that its irrelevant.  All they have to do is see it or hear about it.  Its another kerosene-soaked log on the fire.  We're talking about the people who honestly thinkthat Doom caused Columbine.  Facts are useless. 

If they hear about it, then you *might* hear about it on the news.  And that's it.  So some people protest a game they weren't going to play anyway.  So what?

Edit:  And that's assuming they care.  The point of my response to Llava is that there's not much reason for them to care, unlike Muslems and the cartoons.  Because it's not like crucifixion has EVER been portrayed in movies/games/books before.  It's totally new and original for RV.  Yey for RV for breaking the silence on Roman torture techniques.

...

[Trippy]

If they hear about it, then you *might* hear about it on the news.  And that's it.  So some people protest a game they weren't going to play anyway.  So what?

What it means is that more and more politicians will get on the "video games are evil" bandwagon and when enough of them do we're fucked.

[Mesozoic]

Llava was speaking generally about the tendency of religious fundamentalists.

So... you're worried Christian fundies are going to start bombing KFC when they hear about this?  Is that how this is relevant?

Are you really this simple?  Is that your definition of fundamentalism?  Fires and riots?  Our fundamentalists don't riot, they get on TV decrying a lack of "values;" they write to their congressman.  Then laws get written limiting the sale of violent games.  And games get blamed for real life violence. 

If they hear about it, then you *might* hear about it on the news.  And that's it.  So some people protest a game they weren't going to play anyway.  So what?

Edit:  And that's assuming they care.  The point of my response to Llava is that there's not much reason for them to care, unlike Muslems and the cartoons.  Because it's not like crucifixion has EVER been portrayed in movies/games/books before.  It's totally new and original for RV.  Yey for RV for breaking the silence on Roman torture techniques.

They may not hear about it; if they hear about it it might not hit the MSM; if it hits the MSM it might not cause any long-term harm.  I just fail to see the good in it, aside from a short-term PR coup for a small game. 

And I didn't realize that there was a silence on the nature of Roman torture techniques.