Who said raiding wasn't entertaining?

[Fabricated]

Is ZG at PUG state yet in terms of strats?

Some of the bosses could be, provided you found that one in a million PUG that actually has their act together and knows their ass from their elbows as well as understanding the strats for the boss.  Snake, Bat and Raptor are among the easiest (IMO).  The chances of you finding that in a random group, however, are so small it's laughable. 

In terms of a PUG I think me and 4-6 of my guildmates max, with the rest filled in by the odd small cluster of people from other guilds. I've had great success with 15-20 man groups made up of smaller groups of like 3-5 people from the same guild, with maybe the odd straggler.

[SurfD]

wow, i must have been wonked out when i read that, I thought you said 'in terms of trash" not "strats".   No onder my post didnt make sense when i read it again just now.

[Merusk]

In terms of a PUG I think me and 4-6 of my guildmates max, with the rest filled in by the odd small cluster of people from other guilds. I've had great success with 15-20 man groups made up of smaller groups of like 3-5 people from the same guild, with maybe the odd straggler.

Oddly enough I had a paragraph along these lines but I deleted it.  I've heard of them being downed in PUGs of this nature, but haven't witnessed it personally.  So long as you all have your wits about you and are willing to eat a few deaths while learning the strats, there's no reason this kind of a group wouldn't work.  You just have to be sure it's cool with everyone's Guilds first.   My guild prohibit folks from doing it, because once you down a boss you're then locked-in with that group of people and can't help the guild out if we need you.

 

[Threash]

Getting back to the OP heres another hit from our favorite raid leader:

http://ragnarosisserious.ytmnd.com/

[Ironwood]

Jesus.  That bloke is totally insane.

[Tale]

Yet to get there, 40+ people must have followed him, or the people who allowed him to lead raids, for months.

[Heresiarch]

Yet to get there, 40+ people must have followed him, or the people who allowed him to lead raids, for months.

I think this is a statement of how much it sucks to get locked into one server. I'd guess that there's one guild in that faction on that server that has enough people to make MC runs, so if you want to do MC, you're stuck with Guild Leader Jackass.

Proof that evil exists only by the consent of the good. No-one wants to leave the guild, and so Jackass remains raid leader.

[SurfD]

razorgorekiting.ytmnd.com

Appearently, this dude is actually from a guild called "Wipe Club" on the server Chromaggus.  Both this, The Ony Clip, and the Rag clip look to be completely staged.  I love the way the dude breaks down laughing half way through the Razorgore clip.

[Heresiarch]

Appearently, this dude is actually from a guild called "Wipe Club" on the server Chromaggus.  Both this, The Ony Clip, and the Rag clip look to be completely staged.  I love the way the dude breaks down laughing half way through the Razorgore clip.

What? Next you'll be saying that the Pals 4 Life attempt on the Rookery (vid clip) was staged. That's why it's so hard to find a good guild, no-one takes these kinds of problems seriously.

[HaemishM]

You FUCK UP MY KITING!

[Malathor]

Endless hours of fun with the ony wipe soundboard!

NWS
http://teamwarfare.org/triston/ony_wipe/?d=1

[bhodi]

I'm going to have to use this next ony battle on TS, it should be hours of fun

[Zetor]

Guilds aren't about DPS, they are about relationships.

Yes, it's an actual vent conversation [from one of my server's uberguilds] between an officer and a rogue, ending in the rogue getting the /gkick.
Apparently it's an episode in the as-of-yet-unreleased movie "The Guild"... I can't wait. :P


-- Z.

[bhodi]

Guilds aren't about DPS, they are about relationships.

Yes, it's an actual vent conversation [from one of my server's uberguilds] between an officer and a rogue, ending in the rogue getting the /gkick.
Apparently it's an episode in the as-of-yet-unreleased movie "The Guild"... I can't wait. :P


-- Z.

Good for the guild master. 4 epics and crappy dps. He's a rogue and not doing his job. /gkick. And he's a lot nicer than I would have been. He's giving the guy a reapply option.

Edit: we get these people all the time, he was in the application process and didn't measure up. There are two parts to a membership, technique and socal; if you fail either one you don't make the cut.

[Rasix]

What's funny is, 90% of the apps that can't make it are mostly purely for social/relationship issues unrelated to player skill.  You do run into the occasional player that just can't hack it for whatever reason.  You get the person that wants to PVP when a raids on.  You get the guy that won't leave his DM East pickup group when a raid's called.  You get the applicant that feels the need to give raid scheduling and strat advice.  You get the annoying motherfucker that won't shut up about loot even though they got 4 set pieces on their first run.  Or you get the person that quits and you lose two people because their significant other plays also.

A rogue that can't put up decent DPS should be cut.  They add nothing else beyond a rare occurence where stunning  and trap disarming is needed. Anyone can do that.  I wonder what they were measuring the guy up against? We have a warrior, some mages, and a lot of our hunters that continually beat our rogues on the DPS meters.  Was he like losing to the main tank or a druid in cat form? Playing my rogue in some raiding situations, a good rogue can make up for somewhat crappy gear through a more agressive DPS build and playing their class a little closer to the edge.  What's aggravating is the rogue that likes to bitch about their DPS due to bad gear when there's suitable builds available for their guild that would suffice until they get better geared.

I wish we could give any DPS applicants a final test.  Either you out DPS my rogue alt (in a mix of blues/greens) on Golemagg  or you get the boot.

[bhodi]

I wish we could give any DPS applicants a final test.  Either you out DPS my rogue alt (in a mix of blues/greens) on Golemagg  or you get the boot.

Yep; It gets difficult to decide where to draw the line, though. Even when you CAN point and say "His DPS/healing is average/good/awesome" there is generally a large variation in day-to-day efficacy even amongst your core raiding group. It's based on a number of factors such as time of day, morale, zone, and general distractions. The fact is there's no tried-and-true way to tell, especially during a trial period.

If it's 1am and the raid in general is getting tired or inattentive there's a large drop in skill. Frustration in not being able to beat a boss often exacerbates problems. Having a zone (like MC) on farm status means only half the people pay attention, healers start to slack off, and all it takes is one careless pull to doom the raid (We can take a dog and two giants, but two dogs and two giants? I think we MAY have lived through that, once, barely.) I can't count the number of people who watch TV in the background, or listen to audiobooks, or have other random distractions like a GF naked blowing in their ear. This SEVERELY decreases general effectiveness of the raid. I'm no saint; and I fully admit to watching episodes myself of shows on my second monitor in boring zones like MC. It doesn't affect me as much as others, being a rogue, and it's easy to tell if I'm distracted (standing there once a mob is dead and not moving to next one is a big flashing "I'm not paying attention" sign) but for ranged DPS and healers it's much harder to notice and is just as important. There's a term for it - situational awareness. You develop it partially by pvping, and some people are better at it than others. It's one of the reasons I wish certain people in my guild had interest in pvp.

These people can wipe the raid on shit you have farm status on. Everything from blowing up the raid or getting it deep breathed, there are any number of mistakes that have been built into the higher end raiding game where one person not paying attention spells doom for all. It's simply a problem for a guild as a whole to overcome, and there's no real way to judge this, one of the most important aspects of skill, during applicant periods.


In a trial period, people are going to be at their absolute very best - so if they aren't up to par then you should cut them immediately. Some might say "They don't know the zone, you should take it easy on them" and I think that's a cop-out. They should start out fumbling and asking a lot of questions but by the end they'd better show marked improvement. We ALL learn just like that, every time a zone comes out, so if they can't learn and need strategies spoon fed to them, or panic and run if they get aggro instead of standing still so the tank can drag them off then we don't need them. There are a thousand level 60s out there so we can afford to be picky. Our roster stands at ~60. Don't have gear? that's ok, we expect to you be out of mana half way through the fight or have half the DPS of our tier 2 geared rogues. You'll catch up fast as you rot block all of the nightslayer. If, however, I see you have full mana at the end of the fight, or I don't see that energy meter bouncing up and down constantly, or I see frostbolts firing at a different target than the MA has, then we have a problem.

We actually caught one of our recent applicants because of a variation in skill - we thought it unusual, and, upon investigation, it was discovered that the applicant had actually gone back to China because his/her visa was up and had given the account (back to) to a friend without telling us. Because his/her english wasn't overly good and they were fairly quiet, we didn't notice the change in personality. We did notice the change in play skill which dropped severely. Needless to say, APPLICATION TERMINATED. If they had been up-front about it, maybe, but the person who took over has a lot less skill then our initial applicant (who was on track for getting in).

[Fabricated]

Here's a question: What role do new warriors have when you already have a pretty much maxed out tank and two more experienced offtanks? I'm slowly edging my way up to the larger content (10-20 man) and I usually end up the main assist on everything since I'm not familiar with most of the strats. I am deathly afraid of wiping raids and groups so when I used to get main tank in the 10-man candy runs through strat/scholo I always asked a hunter friend of mine to do the pulls since he has this magic touch for it. I step up and easily peel the group when they come in, but people think I'm fucking crazy for some reason.

[bhodi]

Here's a question: What role do new warriors have when you already have a pretty much maxed out tank and two more experienced offtanks? I'm slowly edging my way up to the larger content (10-20 man) and I usually end up the main assist on everything since I'm not familiar with most of the strats. I am deathly afraid of wiping raids and groups so when I used to get main tank in the 10-man candy runs through strat/scholo I always asked a hunter friend of mine to do the pulls since he has this magic touch for it. I step up and easily peel the group when they come in, but people think I'm fucking crazy for some reason.

That's the standard way to do it; hunter puller and tank peels it off them. You're crazy NOT to do it that way - what happens if he accidentially brings too many? He can FD, you can't. Mistakes WILL happen and having a hunter as puller minimizes that risk.

As for new warriors, well, the answer is if they are good at controlling aggro, DPS. They're also very useful in many boss fights. Consider this. Sulfuron and Domo require 5 tankers, vael requires ~5-6. A MT and two offtanks often isn't enough; you can sub druids in if they have the armor, otherwise warriors are it. Sword and board even with a DPS build can do just fine as an offtank for adds.

Edit: you said 10man; I barely remember scholo/strath and it's simply a black seething pit of hatred my mind shies away from... but they've changed the zones since then; you don't need that many IIRC in those zones. in AQ 20, Rajaxx is easier with multiple tanks to handle the adds but generally 3 is enough for the zone. The simple answer is they can go as DPS but if you're in a 10 man you don't need more than 3.

[Rasix]

Here's a question: What role do new warriors have when you already have a pretty much maxed out tank and two more experienced offtanks? I'm slowly edging my way up to the larger content (10-20 man) and I usually end up the main assist on everything since I'm not familiar with most of the strats. I am deathly afraid of wiping raids and groups so when I used to get main tank in the 10-man candy runs through strat/scholo I always asked a hunter friend of mine to do the pulls since he has this magic touch for it. I step up and easily peel the group when they come in, but people think I'm fucking crazy for some reason.

Offtanks.  We're having new warriors (2 of them) tank trash in BWL and they're doing great.  There's a lot of situations when you're going to need 4-5 tanks picking up stuff.  You need offtanks for everything and every instance and in a lot of situations you can get away with being under geared.  Hell, some of our new initiate members could probably tank Fankriss just fine but would get mauled by the crap you'd need to offtank (so in that situation, we lose nothing by having them maintank). Plus there's fights like Vael where you have to transition between tanks.  For some reason we were sucking balls on Vael during last night's BWL clear and it was mainly due to tank fuckups (how does a goddamn tank manage to die in 2 seconds or actually get punted on the start of it). 

A good raiding guild should be able to field 5 tanks on any night.  And don't worry about pulling, our guild has hunters pull.  You just got to be able to pull the crap off the hunter when he brings it to you, and it sounds like you're already good at that.

They can also fill into a semi-decent DPS role since a lot of warrior DPS gear goes to rot.  With a MC guild you'll be able to get an Obsidian Edge Blade rather easily or if you're in a BWL guild, an Untamed Blade or Drake Talon Cleaver isn't hard to get. 

AQ20/ZG are great for gearing up new warriors.  None of our warriors that have been around for a while really want any of that stuff.

Edit: And yah, like bhodi mentioned, a lot of new warriors in a guild can get away with having DPS builds.  MS tanks are somewhat useful from time to time.

[Jayce]

I am in a guild that is at the MC stage.  I respecced arms based on my equipment and the fact that I realized wouldn't catch up to our MT and MA gear-wise anytime soon.  A recent piece I picked up cemented me in that role - I'll post it when I can.

I do a fair amount of offtanking even with this build, and there are places where it's indisensable.  We also have a fairly new fury warrior that gets close to the DPS of our rogues.

Now I need to figure out a good DPS/crit build based on 2h maces.

[Rasix]

A recent piece I picked up cemented me in that role - I'll post it when I can.

Now I need to figure out a good DPS/crit build based on 2h maces.

Rag hammer?

Here's the profile of the top DPS warrior in our guild.  He's usually #1 or #2 overall.

[Jayce]

A recent piece I picked up cemented me in that role - I'll post it when I can.

Now I need to figure out a good DPS/crit build based on 2h maces.

Rag hammer?

Here's the profile of the top DPS warrior in our guild.  He's usually #1 or #2 overall.

Good guess... when it dropped I was as surprised as anyone - 4th drop for alliance on our server ever. But when they gave it to me, I was even more surprised.  Third surprise - they (my guild) got the mats together in 2 days.  I contributed what I had of course but I think a lot of favors were called in on my behalf.

Update: thottbot link : http://www.thottbot.com/?i=40103

[Dren]

Guilds aren't about DPS, they are about relationships.

Yes, it's an actual vent conversation [from one of my server's uberguilds] between an officer and a rogue, ending in the rogue getting the /gkick.
Apparently it's an episode in the as-of-yet-unreleased movie "The Guild"... I can't wait. :P


-- Z.

Hell why make a movie.  For the quality I've been seeing in reality T.V. they may as well make one around a guild on WoW.  I think it would do well.

Yes, I feel dirty now.

[Rasix]

Good guess... when it dropped I was as surprised as anyone - 4th drop for alliance on our server ever. But when they gave it to me, I was even more surprised.  Third surprise - they (my guild) got the mats together in 2 days.  I contributed what I had of course but I think a lot of favors were called in on my behalf.

Update: thottbot link : http://www.thottbot.com/?i=40103

Heh, I was hording some DKP incase a the eye dropped, but then I blew it all on my t2 bp.  I had to throw out some manly DKP bids to scare off a guy that could have outbid me and still have 6 months worth of DKP left.

We'll never see it drop anyhow, our guild has been clearing Molten Core longer than anyone on the server and we've never had the Eye of Sulfuras or bindings for windseeker drop.  Our drop luck is just horrendous.  1 Ashkandi, 1 nef mace , no nef staves and we're at the point where we can drop him at 1am with 10 healers on. But our druids all have their full t2 set.. /wrists

That's just awesome though, have fun topping the DPS chart in BWL where you can melee everything.  Our DPS warrior was basically also given ashkandi since he got it for a min DKP bid. 

As an aside, "given" the hammer?  Do you just run a simple NBG or are there certain rules in place for special drops?

[SurfD]

Yeah, the random loot drops in MC are a massive source of hatered for my guild.   Without bragging or anything, we can say we are THE horde guild on our server. 
- First guild to down Neff (somewhere like 2 months before any other guild even got to him horde side)
- Farthest progressed Horde Side in AQ (on twin emps)
- Only Horde guild at the time who had a chance in hell at opening the gates, and first guild on server (horde or alliance) who had the AQ scepter finished).   
- MC /BWL / AQ40 up to Huhuran on farm status
- Raiding regularly since god knows when

Number of Legendary weapons to date: 1 Hand of Ragnaros......

There are scrub guilds on our server who can barely get past Vael in BWL, who have been raiding MC maybe half as long as us, who have so many Rag Rammers they give them to Shaman, and have Thunderfury coming out of their asses, and we have so far scored 1 Big Orange Hammer...

Im glad im a mage, at least they havent bothered to impliment legendary caster weapons yet.  I can imagine what a clusterfuck that will be.

[Jayce]

Heh, I was hording some DKP incase a the eye dropped, but then I blew it all on my t2 bp.  I had to throw out some manly DKP bids to scare off a guy that could have outbid me and still have 6 months worth of DKP left.

We'll never see it drop anyhow, our guild has been clearing Molten Core longer than anyone on the server and we've never had the Eye of Sulfuras or bindings for windseeker drop.  Our drop luck is just horrendous.  1 Ashkandi, 1 nef mace , no nef staves and we're at the point where we can drop him at 1am with 10 healers on. But our druids all have their full t2 set.. /wrists

That's just awesome though, have fun topping the DPS chart in BWL where you can melee everything.  Our DPS warrior was basically also given ashkandi since he got it for a min DKP bid. 

As an aside, "given" the hammer?  Do you just run a simple NBG or are there certain rules in place for special drops?

Ordinarily, we use an RCP system (random cap points) where anyone can roll at any time, including first raid with us, but if you have accumulated some points you have a much higher chance to win.

Our guild was totally unprepared for a legendary drop.  We have been running MC since around the end of November, and this is only the second time we've downed Ragnaros.  Since this was such an important drop, the officers led a quick vote to determine who gets it instead of making it a straight roll.  They took into account time in guild, frequency of raiding, personality, etc.  I think they didn't choose a MT or MA because they are needed in that role and they wanted the winner to respec based on it, though we usually don't dictate specs either.

At this point I personally was sort of halfway paying attention since no warrior loot dropped and I figured there was no chance in hell of me getting the eye.  Then the guild leader sends me a tell - "would you be willing to spend your RCP on this?"  When someone asks if you want a legendary item, the answer is almost always "yes".  So I said that, and I got it.  I was probably the most amazed of anyone there.

[Rasix]

Yeah, the random loot drops in MC are a massive source of hatered for my guild. 

Sounds a lot like my guild. No horde guild on our server has even killed Nef although two are currently on him. One guild has been on him for MONTHS (shitty guild with a large chinese base, really fucked up DKP system).  Only real difference is that we let the zerg Alliance guilds do the scepter.  We're the only horde guild to kill a green dragon harder than Ysondre (easier than Ony).  Our progress is identical to yours.

Hell, the fourth place horde guild has at least 2 legendary weapons.  They had a Thunderfury when they couldn't even get past Razorgore (gee, I wonder which guild sold them the ore, rang rang).  It did produce one of the funniest lines on the server forums that I've ever seen: "I guess if you hit MC mobs really hard they drop elementium ore." They've got a rag hammer with a 22 int enchant on it.. /cry.  There's an alliance warrior with a Thunderfury and rag hammer.  I don't have enough fingers to count the amount of a paladins I've see with either a rag hammer or ashkandi (or fucking Thunderfury) strapped to their back. 

My personal luck is just as bad.  I've been on more MC runs that I care to remember, yet every time I've seen EF leg, EF bp or EF shoulders I've either be an initiate or app and outbid by a member.  Yet anytime I miss Golemagg or Geddon they drop without fail and get disenchanted.  Having 6/8 TS and only 4/8 EF (need belt too, grr)  is really starting to annoy the shit out of me.  It's the only reason I don't bring my rogue on MC night since they opened it up to alts.  Plus there's always the cherry picking assholes that only log on for certain mobs so they can push the bids up to the point where you'd have to be fucking insane to keep bidding.

[Phred]

Damn that sounds familiar. Our guild has had one eye, one bindings drop so far. Meanwhile guilds way behind us have 2 or 3 thunderfurys and hammers. We have yet to see a crossbow from Chromagus or a Ashkandi from Ony (or whatever sword it is Ony drops for everyone but us).

[Merusk]

Question:  Have you all been using the same raid leader for every MC/ Ony/ etc run?   I've seen it denied several times, but my own experience says the loot seed is based off of the raid leader.  I know when I'm the one running U & LBRS/ Strath we get different drops than when the raid leader is our guild leader. (Used because they're quick and we've run them at least 50-60 times by now to equip recruits & train folks.)

For example, we never see Druid or Priest shoulders when he leads, but I see them all the time when my hunter does. We always see Beaststalker boots, when hea leads and never the CSX.  Ditto between my gl setting the MC run group vs the other leader from the guild we're aligned with.   Anyone else had similar experience?

[Jayce]

Question:  Have you all been using the same raid leader for every MC/ Ony/ etc run?   I've seen it denied several times, but my own experience says the loot seed is based off of the raid leader.  I know when I'm the one running U & LBRS/ Strath we get different drops than when the raid leader is our guild leader. (Used because they're quick and we've run them at least 50-60 times by now to equip recruits & train folks.)

For example, we never see Druid or Priest shoulders when he leads, but I see them all the time when my hunter does. We always see Beaststalker boots, when hea leads and never the CSX.  Ditto between my gl setting the MC run group vs the other leader from the guild we're aligned with.   Anyone else had similar experience?

We almost always have the same raid leader, and a wide variety of things have dropped.  It -is- very streaky though.  We joke that this one pally who left the guild was preventing lawbringer from dropping.  We literally had Might drops almost every boss kill when he was around and pally gear was extremely rare (like, often none dropped in an entire MC clear, or at most one).  After he left the guild the exact opposite has been the case.

[bhodi]

Part of the problem is that it's too random. Did any of you read that article dealing with probability and finance a few weeks back? It turns out that people don't cook their books with enough randomness, and, when compared with real books, say the ones digit is all out of whack and favors particular numbers much more than others. Given a coin flip a hundred times, when asked to write down a random string of numbers, this mathematical formulae they devised was easily able to pick out the real coin toss from the flip. The reason is simple - mathematically, it's a sure bet that there will be 5 heads in a row, but almost no one wrote that down for fear that it didn't seem random enough. We simply aren't very good at randomness; we create patterns everywhere (sometimes even when there are none.)

With that said, I think it was STUPID to go with a randomness system such as MC, and apparently Blizzard agrees. After the sixth nexusstrike (previously vendorstrike) drop, you really start to want to hunt down the loot table designer, reach down, and pull his testicles out through his mouth. You start to get really tired of those wild growth spalders, too.

I don't think there's any foul play or bad random number generator at work. It's just poor design. Hell, our guild's killed vael over 30 times without a single DFB drop. Our main rogue who's been waiting for it and is at the top of the DKP chart to win it has been getting progressively more and more insane week by week... I'm not sure how much more he can take.

_{Edit: Periods go on the INSIDE of parenthesis.}

[Calantus]

We change raid leaders (and go so far as to get them to zone in first all the time) every single week out of fun since none of us truly believe the theory but it doesn't hurt and it's fun to mock people when their "seed" is bad. We get WAY too much lawbringer, cenarion, felheart, and hardly any arcanist at all when doing MC. We almost always get lots of weapons in a run (last 6 weeks been perdi->bonereaver->bonereaver->spinal->none->spinal from rag). For BWL we get lots of trans and netherwind (4 trans belts last 2 weeks, also chrom dropped double trans shoulders last week), and hardly any (read: 1) bloodfang, also no weapons, no non-class trinkets, and way way way too many mantles of the blackwing cabal.

Our stupid, streaky patterns while always changing the raid leader tells me the whole idea is a myth. Fun, but a myth. :P

[Chenghiz]

We have alts in 5/8 Earthfury, and yet we just saw the second pair of Gianstalker's Boots ever drop a few weeks back. Also, the Black Book is the bane of our existance  -drops every single Razorgore kill. If you consider, though, the number of variables that could be used to generate the random numbers for loot drops, the idea that the raid leader's race or class or the combination thereof seems a tad farfetched.

[Paelos]

Ok serious question time.

My alliance is now at Ragnaros, haven't killed him yet, but we are looking at moving to BWL in the future, probably in about 1-2 months. Here's the question.

To be successful in BWL, could someone please do a class by class checklist of the minimum requirements needed to start trying runs there? I mean how much FR, tier one, what kind of weapons, etc each class would need to try this out. Also, any items that are necessary or extremely helpful to those classes that they should be gunning for would be helpful (ie - good warrior FR items that they should have, weapons you can't miss, etc). Thanks.

[Threash]

It took everquest a few expansions to learn their lesson, it seems WoW already learned it judging by ZG and now AQ sets.  The "random drop for any class" system of raid loot is incredibly frustrating, you can go months at a time without seeing a particular piece while other guilds are disenchanting it and wishing they had your drops.  I heard tales of people doing the planes for months in EQ and not getting their particular drop.  Thankfully luclin introduced the "generic armor piece" style of raid loot for set armor, the same thing thats being used in ZG and AQ.  Intead of a 1 in 10 chance for your class you get a piece of generic loot usable by several classes that redeemable for your epic lewts.