Who said raiding wasn't entertaining?

[Malathor]

NWS: Language, lots of it.

http://78vin.orcon.net.nz/Onyxia_wipe.mp3

Hit it like you mean it!

[Paelos]

Where in THE HELL is this dude from? That's got to be one of the most annoying voices I've heard in a LONG time.

[HaemishM]

Sounds almost like a sterotypical Indian. I picture one of those guys from Bad Boys singing "You must lick it, before you stick it!"

[Rasix]

HAHAHAHAHA. Ohh god, I was dying at the end.  His voice + swearing + wiping = gold. A raid leader shouldn't need to talk that much.

The guild I'm in had something similar happen during the time I was away.  One of the officers, he was either the raid or warrior officer, just went batshit insane in Vent after a messed up core hound pack kill (he's not around anymore).  Kinda sad that I missed it.

[Threash]

Oh god this is priceless...id get my ass booted from that guild so fast from laughing non stop.

[SurfD]

I really want to know what this idiot was talking about when he says "you run to da center" "you run to da center".  Im assuming this during phaze 2, since he also says not to stand next to each other, but anyone who has ever done any reasearch on the Ony encounter should know that having people in the center causes deap breaths.

That, added to the fact that this moron doesent think there is an aggro wipe (there is, she wipes aggro when she does her phaze three landing shout) and the fact that this dude (seems to be the main tank) has somekind of gayass pseudo-techno music playing in the background of ONLY his mic, leads me to believe that they are probably the last guild I would want to run Ony with.

Then again, we get some pretty funny shit happen during our ony runs (we are sufficiently uber at this stage that we can run ony with 30-35 people, have someone fuck up pretty bad, and still recover and down the bitch on the first try).  I should probably record one of them some day, might make for some good laughs.

[MisterNoisy]

MANY WHELPS!  NOW HANDLE IT!

Priceless.

[Morfiend]

but anyone who has ever done any reasearch on the Ony encounter should know that having people in the center causes deap breaths.

Off Topic:

There has been a lot of different theories about Deep Breath, this was the common though about 6 months ago, but has since been disproven. The current thought on Deep Breath is that it has to do with periodic hate wipes while she is flying, and having a certen number of people on her hate list with in a certen time after the hate wipe.

[Ironwood]

To answer the initial question posed :  Me.


I went on my first MC raid last night with a tight group who were there for fun and entertainment and epics.  We got two bosses down no trouble at all and didn't wipe once.

It wasn't fun.  It really, really, really wasn't fun.

Is it just me ?  Is it the fact I was playing my Rogue ?  I can't fault the group or the raid leader.  The only bit of 'drama' was someone who got locked out of the Master Looter list and couldn't get her epixx (and whined and whined and whined) but that was it.

It's just me, isn't it ?

[Merusk]

It's not you, it's the zone.

Trash mobs suck, period.  They are the cock block prior to the content. MC's trash mobs are slow to die and numerous, so you have a lot of suck before you get to the fun, the boss fight.  I put my priest on auto-follow for some trash mobs last Friday in MC, and nobody noticed one of the healers was AFK. You just don't make much of a difference individually for most of the zone, so it's boring as fuck. 

ZG is a much more fun zone, becuase in addition to being a smaller group of people, the trash mobs aren't nearly as annoying.  Also, the pulls are mixed groups of mobs that need different tactics and more frantic so it's not a simply; pull one mob, kill using correct strategy, drink, repeat.

Edit:   Oh, and lest anyone say, "Well yeah, any experienced MC group can have a few people go afk..."  We're not experienced. Last friday was our first time in MC in any sort of a serious fashion, and in 4 hours we downed the first 4 bosses.  We had an experienced leader, but that was the only real advantage. 

[Dren]

I finally was able to hit BRD with a 5 man last Saturday and I can now understand why nobody wants to go there.  Boring.  Damn, that place is too big, too many trash mobs, etc.  We got a lot done, but I still have to keep going back there to get my Ony pre-quests done and other non-related quests.

You can tell  they put some of their apprentices on some of the instance designs in this game.  Hell it is really simple, in my mind.

Good instances:
1.  Make it so you can hit important areas and either save the instance to come back for others OR just make them small sections like SM or DM.
2.  If you do put trash mobs in, then make them challenging for the whole group and put in loot tables that make it worthwhile at least from a tradeskill perspective (gems, metals, cloth-felcloth please, hides, trash greens/blues for DE, etc.)
3.  Only my opinion, but make 15 man or less instances.  From my experience, past 15 just gets to be painful and not fun overall.  Yes, that last battle or 2 may feel epic and rewarding, but just not worth the price of admission.  If you have to have 20 and 40 man instances, make them about that huge end boss like the Onyxia one.  Don't put a ton of resources into some huge dungeon that takes 5 hours to complete.

I have an idea to mix small group raids with larger.  Have instances that follow "My Rules" above.  When a group completes one, they get a choice to lock in to a queue for a multi-group/raid ending.  When 3-5 groups queue up together the ending raid starts.  It would consist of 3-5 individual groups that would coordinate against a big foe/s.  Loot would be split evenly amongst the groups.  Each group would manage distribution.

Yes, I think about this stuff way too much.

[Paelos]

To answer the initial question posed :  Me.


I went on my first MC raid last night with a tight group who were there for fun and entertainment and epics.  We got two bosses down no trouble at all and didn't wipe once.

It wasn't fun.  It really, really, really wasn't fun.

Is it just me ?  Is it the fact I was playing my Rogue ?  I can't fault the group or the raid leader.  The only bit of 'drama' was someone who got locked out of the Master Looter list and couldn't get her epixx (and whined and whined and whined) but that was it.

It's just me, isn't it ?

Part of it is that the zone is boring. They are right the trash mobs are tedious and really just a speed bump to your progress, basically turning a 2 hour run of bosses into a 6 hour snoozer. The worst are the lava surgers/annihiliators, only because they are banishable, annoying, toss people around and don't really do anything but serve to piss you off. I've never seen a lava dude wipe a group ever, they just don't hit hard enough.

The other part is you are playing a boring role as a rogue. You don't do anything really on raids except run in when the dps call comes. Hell, on some bosses you don't even do that. I have fun on raids because I'm the MT, but if I was random warrior in the back, I'd be bored to tears. It's all about the role you play in there, and the problem with MC is the rolls aren't nearly as involved as those in BWL, nor is there the sense of urgency. You are basically playing beat the clock in MC.

EDIT: you eat rolls, you play roles. This is why writers need editors.

[Fabricated]

BRD is one of the worst instances in the game in terms of time waste. Just tons and tons of trash mobs and bosses that are far apart and don't drop a whole lot of stuff worth having (now, not to say BRD's loot sucks...it's just that the good stuff doesn't drop hardly ever. Second Wind and Hand of Justice anyone?).

[Jayce]

I'm sort of agreeing with Paelos.  I'm not the MT but I do OT a fair amount of the time, so I have a ROLE to play.  If I were a DPS bot , ahem rogue, I might not like it as much.  Rogues do have to manage their aggro using feint, vanish etc but I haven't played one to end game so I can't say.

I think though that strictly saying "it's not interesting, it sucks, the end" is not generally true.  If you don't have fun, please don't go, but to date I have always enjoyed it.

[Ironwood]

I think though that strictly saying "it's not interesting, it sucks, the end" is not generally true.  If you don't have fun, please don't go, but to date I have always enjoyed it.

Which is fine if it wasn't for the fact that MC is REQUIRED for other End Raiding.

[Malathor]

Gah, how did this thread turn serious?

You guys are no fun.  :-(

[HaemishM]

Gah, how did this thread turn serious?

You guys are no fun.  :-(

WE SHOULD HIT IT LIKE WE MEAN IT!

[Jayce]

I think though that strictly saying "it's not interesting, it sucks, the end" is not generally true.  If you don't have fun, please don't go, but to date I have always enjoyed it.

Which is fine if it wasn't for the fact that MC is REQUIRED for other End Raiding.

Fair point, though I can't imagine that if you hate MC you would love BWL or AQ40.

[Morfiend]

I think though that strictly saying "it's not interesting, it sucks, the end" is not generally true.  If you don't have fun, please don't go, but to date I have always enjoyed it.

Which is fine if it wasn't for the fact that MC is REQUIRED for other End Raiding.

Fair point, though I can't imagine that if you hate MC you would love BWL or AQ40.

I cant stand MC. Its a snore fest. But I love BWL and AQ. So there.

BWL just has much more strategy and interesting fights.

[Paelos]

Hate it or love it, MC does seperate the raiders from the wannabes. If you don't have a good core of guys who at least like raiding and can work together on the simple stuff, BWL would eat you alive. It's a good basic raiding tutorial for the other fun instances, but unfortunately it is also a much larger gear stepping stone that you must grind through long after the challenge has faded. The bosses are cookie cutter versions of each other, and the gear dictates how you will do far over your tactics or ability.

[Rasix]

If you don't have a good core of guys who at least like raiding and can work together on the simple stuff, BWL would eat you alive.

There's a reason they call Vael, "The Guild Breaker". 

MC is terrible.  MC is the reason I got burnt out when I quit six months into the game.  As bad as it can be now, it was worse when people were hitting MC with AT BEST tier 0 and not a whole lot of refined strategy to mull over.  Nothing like 6 hours in MC when you're continually wiping to Lucifron. The boss fights are fun until you've got them on farm status and then it's just pretty much mechanics.  Only Rags really is interesting every time you try it.  And yah, like others have pointed out, the trash mobs are fucking terrible and there's just too much of it.  Designed better, the zone should be doable in around 2 to 2.5 hours instead of the 3.5 it takes now.

BWL is pretty interesting.  There's a few fights that are pretty much a snore (all of the drakes) and STILL more uninteresting, pointless trash, but the Razorgore encounter, the Vael fight, the gauntlet run, the Nef right, etc are all worth the price of admission.  Hell, the Nef fight is a blast even when you've had the fucker on farm status for months. 

AQ40 is great.  I just did the Satura fight for the first time last night.  That thing really keeps you on your toes. There really isn't too much aggravating trash yet, except for the crap leading up to twin emps.  Trash that's more difficult on an individual level than any boss in MC and most anything in BWL is really fucking ridiculous.   

Dots. More DOTS. MORE DOTS. COMMON MORE DOTS.

[Paelos]

I'll probably crack up before I see AQ40, or the expansion will hit. I hate bugs.

[bhodi]

If you don't have a good core of guys who at least like raiding and can work together on the simple stuff, BWL would eat you alive.

AQ40 is great.  I just did the Satura fight for the first time last night.  That thing really keeps you on your toes. There really isn't too much aggravating trash yet, except for the crap leading up to twin emps.  Trash that's more difficult on an individual level than any boss in MC and most anything in BWL is really fucking ridiculous.   

Dots. More DOTS. MORE DOTS. COMMON MORE DOTS.

You can't ever have enough dots.. most of our priest/healer claseses don't put any dots, even though SW:P is a great one to throw on... I guess it's a targeting issue or something. I dunno. I'm just a completely replaceable DPS machine (aka rogue).. the only thing I'm needed for is to stun satura (wow they gave us something to do, finally!) and to eat the charms on sekram.

Oh boy, hard as shit trash mobs, I can't wait. We're currently cockblocked on Princess Hahrurahrarhrahrahan due to low NR... It's going to be fun trying to get past her...

I fucking HATE molten bore. there's NO Reason for most of us to run it except to get to ragnaros... and even though we're downing it shy of 4 hours, it's still an incredible waste of time. As for Vael, frankly, the onus rests (as it seems to always rest) on the tank/warriors for a smooth tank transition in terms of actual playing.. high FR gear takes care of the rest. It's just a giant FR cockblock, and once you get the appropriate FR it's not overly difficult... I tend to give more props to bosses that require flexibility and whose strategies require quick thinking and delicate timing from a number of classes. So far I really like satura and fankris... and, strangely enough, sekram - the randomness keeps people on their toes and you really have to pay attention to assists.

[SurfD]

but anyone who has ever done any reasearch on the Ony encounter should know that having people in the center causes deap breaths.

Off Topic:

There has been a lot of different theories about Deep Breath, this was the common though about 6 months ago, but has since been disproven. The current thought on Deep Breath is that it has to do with periodic hate wipes while she is flying, and having a certen number of people on her hate list with in a certen time after the hate wipe.

I would disagree.  We used to get deap breaths frequently on our ony raids, then we changed strat a bit, and smooth sailing.

Basicly, when she takes to the air, we try to keep 95% of the raid on either her left, or right side.  Takes a bit of paying attention when she is over the welp pit entrances, but otherwise, easily doable.  Alot has to do with her movement patterns while airborne. She always sits at a position in the zone relative to the 8 primary directions (North, NW, W, SW, etc.) and moves from one to the other in order (when she deap breaths, she immediatly crosses over to the opposite side she was on).  When she moves, we shift with her.  The only time we EVER get a deep breath is if there are too many people standing infront of her.   And by infront, i mean, relative to the oppsoite compass point that she is on, NOT the direction she may be faceing, since she turns to face people when she picks them to fireball. 

Deep breath is a frontal cone aoe, from what we have managed to dig up.  So if she is in, say, the North position and DB's it only hits people in a cone from north to south, if you are off to her side, directly under her, or a little bit behind her, it misses you completely.  We have been doing ony with this strat for going on 6+ months now, and i could probably count on 1 hand the times we have been deep breathed in that period.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As to Raid instances, MC iis probably hell for guilds just starting on the raid scene.  Will totally agree that the trash is irritating, and overly boring to kill.  There is NO raid involvement in them,  You jsut stick a tank on it, heal the tank, and DPS.   The packs are about the most entertaining mobs in the place, and likely only because there are 4 mobs a time to manage, instead of the standard 1 or 2.

BWL is MUCH more fun.  2 boss encounters pretty much right off the start, large and involving trash pulls, that are not boring, and keep your raid on its toes.

AQ40 i have only been in once so far, up to Huhu on a guild clear.  Trash is interesting, with different challenges (Anubisath guys have got to be the most entertaining trash mobs i have ever seen).  Boss fights are a blast.

For the people wondering about the trash leading to Twin Emps (argueably some of the NASTIEST pieces of work in the game to date), go have a look at AQ20.  Imagine the Anubisath mobs from Ossirian's room, but scaled to 40 man raid proportions.  Not uncommon to lose 1/4 to 1/2 of your raid to one, even if you are paying attention.  Of course, if you know the tricks, they are easy.

[Tale]

My problem with Molten Core is not the encounters. It's the look. I mean, you get to 60 and learn to raid and the first target is a generic lava cave? It's the most boring-looking zone in the game. As an EverQuest veteran, I finally bothered to level up a WoW character and raid, and after I saw MC and Onyxia, that was enough. I quit for five months because they just weren't interesting (eventually came back because I can't stay away from the WoW phenomenon, I want to experience what all these millions are doing).

[Jayce]

My problem with Molten Core is not the encounters. It's the look. I mean, you get to 60 and learn to raid and the first target is a generic lava cave? It's the most boring-looking zone in the game. As an EverQuest veteran, I finally bothered to level up a WoW character and raid, and after I saw MC and Onyxia, that was enough. I quit for five months because they just weren't interesting (eventually came back because I can't stay away from the WoW phenomenon, I want to experience what all these millions are doing).

I can buy that.  If you feel that way, try ZG - interesting boss encounters, trash lowered as of last patch, and the look is less generic than lava caves.  Hell, you can even ride your mount inside, which is strange for an instance in my experience.

[Paelos]

I love ZG. It's far and away my favorite instance because you need less people than a 40 man, the loot is great in places, and you can relax a little while doing it. It just seems my alliance jokes around and has a better time in there than in MC.

[Teleku]

I like ZG, but I just cant really do it anymore, especially now that there is AQ20.  ZG has a shit ton of trash all along the way, while AQ20 is very limited on that, AND it doesn't respawn.  Loot is just as good as well.

[Merusk]

I like ZG, but I just cant really do it anymore, especially now that there is AQ20.  ZG has a shit ton of trash all along the way, while AQ20 is very limited on that, AND it doesn't respawn.  Loot is just as good as well.

They took maybe 1/3 of the trash mobs out of ZG, and increased the drop rate on items.  The amount of shit you kill is really really reduced.

[Ironwood]

Yeah, you literally fly to the bosses in ZG these days.

[Paelos]

Yeah, you literally fly to the bosses in ZG these days.

It's a thing of beauty really when you couple it with the rep bump on trash now. We go out of our way to pull gators and fish in the rivers now because they are so fast and rep lucrative.

[Threash]

ZG is a joy to do now, last night we did the whole thing including hexxer in 2.5 hours and got a cool 2600 rep + shit tons of bijous and coins.

[Fabricated]

Is ZG at PUG state yet in terms of strats?

[SurfD]

Is ZG at PUG state yet in terms of strats?

You could easily kill every trash mob in zg (with the possible exception of the zerkers and the large packs in hexxars room) with a group of 10 people.  Couple mages and a druid for croud controll, a tank and a healer, and then top it off with whatever else tickles your fancy for dps and you are golden.

Hell, when extreemely bored, people in my guild do 3 man fish runs.  Take a healer and some dps in jump in the water.  Kill fish non stop as you circle around Hakkars platform in the water (watch out for crocs).  Each fish gives you 4 rep, and you litterally will never kill them fast enough. Could easily make 1k+ rep an hour killing fish

[Merusk]

Is ZG at PUG state yet in terms of strats?

Some of the bosses could be, provided you found that one in a million PUG that actually has their act together and knows their ass from their elbows as well as understanding the strats for the boss.  Snake, Bat and Raptor are among the easiest (IMO).  The chances of you finding that in a random group, however, are so small it's laughable.