Gushing EVE review - feedback?

[squirrel]

Some friends of mine - not really gamers but people who pick a game and play it faithfully for years (DAoC and WoW primarily) have been asking about EVE. I thought about pointing them here but a). they wouldn't understand what the hell is going on b). i don't want to inflict some of you with my less 'enlightened' associates. So i threw together a quick intro/review that is pretty fanboish but hell i like the game.

It's Here

Ignore the rest of the site, mostly a CSS playground for me...

Writing style is pretty rough, is a 20 minute effort needing editing, mostly wondering if i overlooked any major pro's or con's.

[Trippy]

You need to trim the trailing double quote from your link.

[squirrel]

Heh ta :P

[Evangolis]

I think you gloss over the need for other people in the game.  Additionally, unlike other games, I haven't really met anyone while playing.  Now that is more me than anything else, but it is very possible to have little or no direct interaction with people in EVE unless you make some effort toward making it happen.  And you need that to happen, because the world is vast, but not terribly deep without other players.

[squirrel]

I think you gloss over the need for other people in the game.  Additionally, unlike other games, I haven't really met anyone while playing.  Now that is more me than anything else, but it is very possible to have little or no direct interaction with people in EVE unless you make some effort toward making it happen.  And you need that to happen, because the world is vast, but not terribly deep without other players.

Hmmm interesting. I'll think about that and stress it - EVE requires you to be in a social network regardless of whether or not you actually 'group' with anyone. Interesting for me as this is the first game i joined with an intact set of contacts - f13 - as opposed to starting out on my own and either pulling in friends from other games or meeting people ingame. That's probably coloured my judgement, EVE without f13 would be a different experience...

[Soln]

well written, thx

got an RSS feed for that site?

[Mr_PeaCH]

All of this really only scratches the surface of EVE but hopefully it demonstrates one of the key reasons I’m enjoying it so much that I think it’s my next long term MMORPG – it’s complex. Very complex, and unapologetic about it. You have to study the way things work to be successful. You have to plan. You have to make friends and allies, ensuring that you will also make enemies. For comparison my 2 months in EVE have gotten me to the point where I can converse intelligently on some topics, and have a pilot who is ok at .3 security missions. I’m still a complete noob really. In my first 2 months in WoW I had a lvl 48 rogue and pretty much had the game down pat – at least the 1-59 game. By 6 months in WoW I had 2 lvl 60’s and was partaking in the raid ‘end-game’. My progress in DAoC was slower, but not for reasons I particularly like. I envision it will be a year before my main EVE character is developed to the point I’d like. And yet I play EVE for less time per week than I did either WoW or DAoC. The offline skill training and the methods to make money are totally compatible with my slower less catass playstyle these days, and when I do play I never feel like I’m obligated to play or that I’m ‘grinding’ at something I don’t enjoy. A pleasant change.

bold emphasis mine

Excellent mini-summary right there.  Don't get me wrong; I liked the review as a whole but this paragraph I thought was perfect.  I bolded those two thoughts because I am struck by the dichotomy they seem to represent on the surface.  But how when you get deeper it's really the complexity of a thing which generates it's own enjoyment.  If certain things weren't complex then they would be a grind.  And also, as you say, a n00b in a properly outfitted frigate CAN make a difference in what should be the most complex and enjoyable activity going, PVP, pretty much from the outset.

I may be sending some people a link to your summary myself. 

[WayAbvPar]

Nice work, squirrel. Interesting read. Probably something that belongs on the front page here...

[Nebu]

Thanks for the link (and the thoughts).  I've been toying with the idea of trying EvE again, but there are some barriers that you may be able to help me overcome.

1) The last time I played (early after release) it played like a screensaver.  Way too slow for my tastes.  Has this improved?

2) Now that the game is established, I imagine that it's very newbie unfriendly (meaning that upon starting, I'm well behind the curve in power)

On a side note, I've been playing DAoC off and on for the past 4 years.  One of the reasons that I enjoy it, would be because of its subtle complexity.  DAoC really just suffers from the fact that the grind to get to the fun part of the game is prohibitively boring for most people.  Of course, the access to PvP is the other reason I enjoy DAoC making EvE attractive as well.

Your (or any) helpful comments would be appreciated.

[Furiously]

You probably have an established guild in DAOC. Imagine coming into DAOC right now as a newbie.

I think having the support of the people in F13 is making EVE an enjoyable experience.

[Nebu]

You probably have an established guild in DAOC. Imagine coming into DAOC right now as a newbie.

In DAoC there are classes that can be played in the endgame solo as well.  So I can come and go as I please and PvP to my heart's content without having to rely on anyone for my fun.   

[Yegolev]

Nebu, I have only recently started playing so I don't know what you mean about a screensaver other than the fact that I could probably get by playing the game using just the UI windows.  There is information in "space", as it is called, not found in the UI, so I'd rather be able to see it.  Of course, we will have to define what "play the game" means since there is a lot to do.  Combat, of course, and mining, but there is also the market game that I find fascinating.

EVE isn't newbie-unfriendly, outside of it's generally unfriendly atmosphere that is.  I am in the F13 corp, but I would still be playing even without these people.  It's not like I know anyone in my corp other than by way of these forums, anyway.  It really just saved me some time in having other players earn my trust.  The tutorial is rather adequate in getting you started, and once you run through the first agent mission and mine your first asteroid, you pretty much know what's going on.  Finding newbie asteroid belts or NPC rats is a piece of cake, and staying in empire space will generally keep you from losing your shirt too often.  It is one hundred times more newbie-friendly than UO, and I personally feel that it is even more newbie-friendly than EQ2, which I am working to understand despite my general-MOG and specific-EQ1 experience.

Soloing in EVE isn't really an option, of course.  It is entirely possible, from what I understand, to be a solo pilot but that seems like a long and hard road.  That said, I am having lots of fun doing what I want when I want.  I don't have a lot of time to play and that keeps me out of the more interesting WoW (and eventually EQ2 I assume) stuff, but given EVE's pacing and my nonreliance on others, I am able to log in and buy/sell, or kill a few NPCs, or mine a few asteroids, or test a ship configuration, using just a few minutes of my time.

[Viin]

There's actually plenty of stuff to do solo. Lots of folks run missions and are generally solo pirates, some run the markets, some mine and make money that way. You can do all of that stuff solo without any problems.

The thing a corp gives you is access to lower security areas (because we can provide backup in case a pirate shows up), access to blueprints (to make ships/weapons/modules) that you wouldn't normally have, a community pot of items to share among members, etc etc etc. By no means do you have to do anything with corp members, but it tends to be more fun when you are at least chatting with other folks on that long haul.

As for the barrier to entry: there are no levels. Did you read the review? You'll notice that he specifically states that newbies can help out with PvP (of all things!) almost right out of the gate. Sure, you can't fly the biggest baddest ships - but even the biggest ships can get owned by a bunch of little ships if they don't have little ships of their own to help them out.

For pace: I think they've sped it up a bit. Once you get into a non-noob frigate and get afterburners travel time isn't that bad. Of course, now that we are based in a low sec system I rarely travel more than 4-5 systems... 90% of my time is spent within 2 jumps of home base. As long as you aren't ferrying items all over the universe you won't notice the travel times much.

Anyways - you'll never know you'll like it until you try it with a buncha guys who are having fun.

[Yegolev]

If it's travel time that concerns, it only hurts until you obtain a set of bookmarks for travel.  The best cure for travel times, I think, is to not travel so much.  I have, so far, settled into three different systems and can generally keep myself entertained without leaving the system.  Shopping is the notable exception, which I approach the way a pioneer would approach going to town for supplies.  Since you start out "living in town", this isn't a huge deal for a newbie.

[Hoax]

There are many ships that are solo-capable for pvp, or for complex running and/or ratting.  Most mission runners are 100% solo.

But the thing with EvE is, there isn't a reason to play unless you create one.  Therefore playing solo will only work for the most lone wolf personalities.  I can never last more then a month without a good, fun corp providing me with reasons to log on.

Anyone can attest that I typically log on to EvE ask if there are any pirate sightings or if any miners need coverage then promptly go afk and check back from time to time waiting for one of those two things to happen.  But I am not a solo player at all, I do belt ratting solo when I feel like it, but I do not suffer if I dont hit some quotient of isk/day, with the current ships I fly and the liquid cash I posses I would be hard pressed to get myself in any kind of trouble.

The only frustrating thing that happens is if I lose a Battlecruiser I may have to go on a long ass trip to buy another one.


EvE is a very slow game, unless you are in pvp in which case it remains very complex and often you will suffer from information overload.  I keep forgetting minor details during pvp encounters because I'm trying to take in so much information just keeping track of range, weapon damage types, tank status, capacitor and transversal velocities.  I swear I dont think I've remembered to launch drones in pvp yet.

There is a great deal of waiting in EvE I suppose. I guess I would pose this question to you assuming you have played Planetside:

If your faction captures a base, are you the type that sticks around waiting for turrets and sensors to be brought online and repairing damaged consoles or do you quickly rush to the next source of action?  If you are the latter, then EvE will be too slow I'm sure.

Its the best sandbox game out there right now.  It is a casual pvp player's dream, as well as that of more tactical minded players.  It is also a great game for those that like complex economies and exploiting them for profits as well as a host of other stuff.  If you are even considering it I dont see how you can go wrong with the two week trial and you'll want to do it now as in a month most of F13 will have moved to areas of space where new pilots can't really venture, not that we wont still be around in chat and willing to help out, but direct interaction will be severely limited until a person has the skills to handle 0.0 space.

*lose/loose, wth I think that error is the gulag's fault*

[squirrel]

Thanks all for the feedback, EVE has definatley got me thinking about what i like about these games.

Nebu - EVE is different. It's hard to quantify but for example i spend some of my time in the game solo. That is i'm running agent missions or off killing pirates in asteroid belts alone. However, the term solo is somewhat different here. I can generally do without a group but i can't imagine not being in a corporation. The support economically and in terms of protecetion a corp offers is really not optional. Also PvP is not a solo affair at least at the beginning stages of a characters growth. Later though i imagine it's possible to be a solo pirate as easily as you can be a soloist in DAoC. But i have to stress, the requirement to be part of a social group is stronger here than any game i've played.

The game isn't noob unfriendly - it's just downright unfriendly :P Actually i'll let the more experienced players comment on 'end game' strengths but as a new player i've found it very accessible. I've been involved in several PvP fights flying nothing more than a disposable frigate against much stronger ships. Of course the above caveat remains true, i think the game is less accessible without a corporation to help out. As far as power curve goes my experience so far has been that unlike DAoC (i assume you play ToA) a noob can still focus on certain skills that make them an asset. 3 beginner frigates and a mid level cruiser can kill a tech II cruiser. We did it last night. That would be the equivalent of 3 level 20's and a new lvl 50 killing a ML8RR8 50 in DAoC. Just not going to happen very often.

As far as the pace goes, it's slower than WoW but combat is pretty stressful at times. Depends on what you choose to do i guess, i tend to stick around in 1 or 2 systems so travel time is not really that bad and i don't manufacture or trade yet, although i have an industrialist alt in training,  so the spreadsheet aspect hasn't become too prevalent. Mostly i just tear around in my frigate and look for stuff to shoot missiles at - and that to me is fun as is planning out my next skills and equipment purchases.

[Polysorbate80]

Travel times are only bad when making the long shopping trip back to someplace with an actual market.  Every couple weeks I load any modules worth selling onto the Badger and AFK haul them to Jita to sell off, returning with a hold full of missiles and a wallet full of ISK.

With about 5 weeks under my belt I'm flying a battleship, although my skills aren't up to PvPing in it yet--that's still the realm of the disposable frigate (Condor with whatever rockets and ABs I loot off rats).)

Being my own corporation I don't have access to a lot of the manufacturing materials the f13 crew has (BPO's, etc), but I haven't found much real need for them yet; everything I'm liable to lose is easily replaceable.  Once I get into battleship-based PvP that will change, but that will take a few weeks and by then I plan to have at least the base ship BPO (Scorpion is only about 600mil) and enough manufacturing skills to make it worthwhile.

[schild]

cough, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeze. You could have just submitted it here.

Hell, you still can. 

[Hoax]

I still think the moving out thread and Evangolis' thread in politics deserve front-page loving as well.

[squirrel]

cough, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeze. You could have just submitted it here.

Hell, you still can. 

It's crawling it's way to you via the intarweb now. Or at least to someone who monitors the f13 email box.

[schild]

Yea, that's me. I now have 3 reviews on 3 different games I have to get proofread. I'll try to hit them all tonight. Thanks muchly.

[Rhonstet]

Thanks all for the feedback, EVE has definatley got me thinking about what i like about these games.

Nebu - EVE is different. It's hard to quantify...

Actually, it is pretty easy.

EVE, at its core, isn't really a game.  Its a world simulator that starts like an after-school special.  The client presents you with a massive world, teaches you some basic rules, and then says, "Have fun kids, daddy is going to the store to get a pack of smokes," and then you find yourself on your own and abandoned. 

Being a massive open-ended world that relies on other players for content and currency for a measure of progress is very strange, especially when compared to games like WoW or EQ.  For some people, the experience is epic.  Others will have problems when the game fails to meet their expectations.  Having a virtual world is great and all, but its disturbing how little players can influence anything without killing each other. 

EVE supports certain playstyles and actions a lot more then others.  Compare the thrill of PvP action to industrial production and mining and you can see where certain things are totally ignored. Which is part of the problem: its a very pretty virtual world, but the more time you spend in central space, the more ridiculous the NPCs feel.

Whether or not you dig EVE is a matter of perspective.  If you dig virtual worlds, EVE is your MMOG. 

[Big Gulp]

Whether or not you dig EVE is a matter of perspective.  If you dig virtual worlds, EVE is your MMOG. 

My problem is that I dig pretty much everything about the game, except what should be the best part of a game like this; combat.

The world is fantastic.  The PvP setup is a thing of beauty.  The economy is so well done that it makes the PvP have meaning, because corporations actually fight over tangible things rather than some artificial construct like "different realms".  It's free market economics with no moral constraints and very little in the way of law enforcement.  It's the closest these games have ever come to building a little Hobbesian playground.

But the combat sucks, and for me the game's gotten sort of dull.  I hate, hate, hate, not feeling like I'm actually piloting the ship.  It's a deal breaker for me, because the rest of the elements as good as they are can't overcome this fundamental flaw.

[5150]

Its a world simulator that starts like an after-school special.  The client presents you with a massive world, teaches you some basic rules, and then says, "Have fun kids, daddy is going to the store to get a pack of smokes," and then you find yourself on your own and abandoned.

But but but, Smed says Sandbox games don't work!!!!

Oh hang on, he's full of shit

[schild]

Eve isn't a Sandbox. Not like say, Spore or Garry's Mod or Sim City. There are objective and the rules aren't breakable in the sense of "sandbox" where you can build a castle, destroy it, flood it, pee on it, shit on it. The problem here is the definition of sandboxes. SW:G was much more a sandbox than Eve. Though it shouldn't have been. The alternative title for the upcoming game Steambot Chronicles, "Relaxing Non-Linear Adventure: Be A Bad Guy If You Want?," really captures the true essence of a sandbox (though the game may not). Yes, I'm trying to stir semantic shit up. Smed isn't full of shit, well, that's assuming he's challenging the idea of a sandbox. GTA was emergent sure, but it wasn't a sandbox. Someone else made a strict set of rules, despite them being varied. You couldn't fuck a cop and get chased around by hookers. There was no way to make it happen. The game wouldn't let you. Basically, let's put it this way, Smed is smarter than you think and sandbox games (specifically MMOGs), probably wouldn't work if they had WoW like populations. Fewer people, fewer problems. Eve fits that definition. If it had a million people, it'd be a fucking economic train wreck. Eve has ships, you can PvP and you can mine. There's a lot of flexbility in there, but that's the big picture.

So, yea, go ahead and debate the idea of a sandbox. Really define it. The best thing to do is to make a list of games you believe are sandboxen and then realize why they aren't. The word "misnomer" comes to mind. I hate it when geeks come up with technobabble that doesn't fit what they're defining.

[Catalan]

Yeah, Second Life is a sandbox in too many ways EVE isn't, but we need a term to define how EVE doesn't lead you by the nose like WoW.
It's been already said in the thread. The basic premises aren't that different from EQclone VII, but somehow you can carve an "alternative playstyle" for yourself in a way you could not in those other places.

See, I'd love to get my old guildmates from Shadowclan into Eve. They lived in the Yew orc fort in UO, logged there and woke up  there, lived and trained off the stuff in the surroundings and never ventured that far except for guild-wide expeditions or player driven quests. A new orc was equiped and in the line of battle 10 minutes after character creation. And it was a extremely succesful guild.
When SC moved onto EQ, DAoC and lately WoW, the guild was a sorry shadow of itself. Their playstyle had no place there. A couple of levels of difference means different groups and  zones and there's not a single place where the whole guild can have any kind of meaningful activity.

Maybe it's a size thing and a WoW server with thousands of zones and 20000 concurrent players would be more worldly. Part of the fun in EVE is exploring new areas, getting to know what the locals are up to, setting somewhere you call home for a  while instead of just following the crowd to your next level-mandated theme park.

[5150]

Basically, let's put it this way, Smed is smarter than you think

I really will have to take your word for that, they 'whys' etc are a topic for another thread /derail

Why should 'sandbox' be so tightly defined? Why is it not acceptable for 'sandbox' to simply means (in this context) and game world that puts you in it, gives you a bunch of rules and then lets you get on with whatever the hell you want to do in it?

I think I know why though, because people (for some obscure reason) would find a way to put the level treadmill games into that catagory too (probably with a phrase like "well you dont have to treadmill you can hang around in Freeport and, err, you know, do other stuff if you want")

If you want to be really picky any game with any rules at all (even community conduct ones) shouldn't be called a sandbox either because you still aren't able to do absolutely anything and everything you want in it.... (not that I'm advocating you should I'm just being as akward as the next guy)

[Hoax]

Whether or not you dig EVE is a matter of perspective.  If you dig virtual worlds, EVE is your MMOG. 

My problem is that I dig pretty much everything about the game, except what should be the best part of a game like this; combat.

The world is fantastic.  The PvP setup is a thing of beauty.  The economy is so well done that it makes the PvP have meaning, because corporations actually fight over tangible things rather than some artificial construct like "different realms".  It's free market economics with no moral constraints and very little in the way of law enforcement.  It's the closest these games have ever come to building a little Hobbesian playground.

But the combat sucks, and for me the game's gotten sort of dull.  I hate, hate, hate, not feeling like I'm actually piloting the ship.  It's a deal breaker for me, because the rest of the elements as good as they are can't overcome this fundamental flaw.

The combat sucks versus npc's, but that is a given at least in my mind.  But I have found the pvp combat in EvE to be quite tactical with plenty of mistakes that can be made.  It is too bad though, as if you dont enjoy the combat you are kind of screwed if your not the robber baron, space trucker, industrial type.

[Nebu]

I want to thank you all for your comments and feedback.  I'm seriously considering trying this game again as the tactical side of pvp seems rather interesting.  I may be bugging you all with random noob-type questions in the near future.

[WayAbvPar]

There are objective and the rules aren't breakable in the sense of "sandbox" where you can build a castle, destroy it, flood it, pee on it, shit on it.

Remind me to never borrow your monitor.

[schild]

There are objective and the rules aren't breakable in the sense of "sandbox" where you can build a castle, destroy it, flood it, pee on it, shit on it.

Remind me to never borrow your monitor.

Virtual shit, WAP, virtual shit.

[Furiously]

So your virtual shit doesnt stink?

[Teleku]

I actually just subscribed myself, reactivating a previous trial account I had played around with awhile ago, and started a new character.  I'd like to screw around with the upper end PvP, so I figured I should get an account going and start grinding my skill levels up.  Luckily, I had made about 30 million ISK with the old char during the trial, so I transferred most of that over to my new creation, allowing me to buy nicer shit right off.  Could I possibly get into the F13 guild somehow, since everybody goes off about needing a corp to actually play the game?  Of course, you probably won’t see much of me for 2 months till I am able to actually be able to do something worthwhile, heh.

There are a couple of things though that bug me about Eve.  First, this is one of the grindyist games I have played since EQ1.  You need to go grind ISK endlessly if you want to do anything, and there is no real fun way to do it.  Going around killing rats endlessly is about the most entertaining way, but not that great, and much slower than mining or trucking.  Anything combat related requires you to grind for hours in order to pay for the bill (supplies, cost of destroyed ships, insurance, clones, ect.).  It’s just annoying to be forced back into it, since I kind of got spoiled with WoW and its faster paced, constant combat, that usually had some sort of point (quest). 
       Another problem is the players.  With out a doubt, from what I have seen in game and reading message boards, Eve players are some of the most arrogant, condescending catass's I have yet seen in a MMOG.  They go on and on about how god damn smart they are, and how everybody else who plays or even thinks of playing another game is far below their vast intellect.  It just drives me up the god damn wall.  It’s like playing a MMOG filled with the comic book guy from the Simpson’s.  They are also obsessed with making death a big penalty, like deleveling in EQ (which I also hated).  Now I know why all the uber raiders I know in WoW play Eve as well.
       Finally, the lack of a world.  One of the things I like about a MMOG is the ability to explore he world, see new things.  I spent hours and hours of play time exploring WoW at lower levels when I first got the game, and looking for landmarks from the previous games.  In Eve, however, if you have seen the first zone you start in, you have seen the entire game.  There’s no substance to anything, nothing to go explore or check out.  The game is completely empty, except for a Hubble telescope screensaver in the background.  I know the game concentrates on other things, but I just miss actually having a world to interact with :(.

But yeah, going to give Eve another shot, since I like several of the concepts behind the game.  If anything, maybe I’ll find a way to piss of the Elitists, heh.

[Rhonstet]

Someone else made a strict set of rules, despite them being varied. You couldn't fuck a cop and get chased around by hookers.

Actually, at one point early in the game, a group of pirates effectively blocked off empire space and slaughtered everyone.  When the cops showed up, the pirates killed/tanked the cops and kept right on going.  The group was eventually driven off, and spent most of its time chasing, and being chased by, other pirates. 

EVE might not be a perfect sandbox, but its close enough so that a lot of people are more then happy with the result.  Judging by the recent patches, CCP is trying to move closer and closer to 'more perfect sandbox' (whatever other people want that to mean). 

[Raging Turtle]

There are a couple of things though that bug me about Eve.  First, this is one of the grindyist games I have played since EQ1.  You need to go grind ISK endlessly if you want to do anything, and there is no real fun way to do it.  Going around killing rats endlessly is about the most entertaining way, but not that great, and much slower than mining or trucking.  Anything combat related requires you to grind for hours in order to pay for the bill (supplies, cost of destroyed ships, insurance, clones, ect.).  It’s just annoying to be forced back into it, since I kind of got spoiled with WoW and its faster paced, constant combat, that usually had some sort of point (quest). 
       Another problem is the players.  With out a doubt, from what I have seen in game and reading message boards, Eve players are some of the most arrogant, condescending catass's I have yet seen in a MMOG.  They go on and on about how god damn smart they are, and how everybody else who plays or even thinks of playing another game is far below their vast intellect.  It just drives me up the god damn wall.  It’s like playing a MMOG filled with the comic book guy from the Simpson’s.  They are also obsessed with making death a big penalty, like deleveling in EQ (which I also hated).  Now I know why all the uber raiders I know in WoW play Eve as well.
       Finally, the lack of a world.  One of the things I like about a MMOG is the ability to explore he world, see new things.  I spent hours and hours of play time exploring WoW at lower levels when I first got the game, and looking for landmarks from the previous games.  In Eve, however, if you have seen the first zone you start in, you have seen the entire game.  There’s no substance to anything, nothing to go explore or check out.  The game is completely empty, except for a Hubble telescope screensaver in the background.  I know the game concentrates on other things, but I just miss actually having a world to interact with :(.

Weird.  Eve is one of the least grindy games I've ever played; I love the fact that I stop playing entirely for two weeks and my character is better when I come back.  While I admit I'm working on smaller ships rather than racing to the expensive battleships, money has never been a problem for me.  I find mining boring, so I run missions or rat in asteroid belts, or even play pirate.  I can't do that as a corp member, but luckily Viin accidently kicks me out of the corp every so often. 

With the right set of missions, I can get 1-2 mil an hour on just level 2's, occasionally much more if uber loot drops or I get a great agent offer.  In the last few days alone, I made 30 mil off two easy courier missions for my storyline agent with implants as rewards.  I'm told that you can make a hell of a lot more mining, but you typically need a group to do it.  Once my current sell orders go through, I'll have far more money than I can reasonably spend. 

Definitely join the corp, or even just the chat channel F13.  With access to the corp hangars (and other useful things), outfitting a new ship takes 90% less time and money, and even getting the ship can be much cheaper when you get someone to make it from a bpo or bpc.