Remembering why I left.

[Riggswolfe]

Anyways on to the main topic:  I jumped into AB on the test server and there were like 10 pallies on the other side.  Those fuckers kept doing this thing I had NEVER seen a pally do before, they would like cast a spell and instead of it barely hurting me, their allies would gain back some of their hp.  And when I DoTed someone they would cast this other spell, and my DoT would be gone.  If this new breed of pallies makes it to live, alliance wil clearly need a nerf.

I'm going to assume this was a very sarcastic post or else you've never encountered a decent Paladin player, ever.

[Jayce]

I think you see the same effect with Shamans to a lesser extent - people see a class that has the potential to swing around a big weapon and can also heal. "Heck why roll a Warrior or Rogue when I can poke people with my big e-peen stick AND heal myself too! Sign me up!"

Reminds me of a friend of mine who rolled a druid because "they can heal, cast, tank, and stealth".  I told him that that's cool, but remember hybrids can't do any of the above as well as the class that's specialized for it.  He said no, he thought in this game they do it just as well.  He thought I was stupid for "just" being a warrior.

He later quit the class and then the game in disgust because the class was "useless".

[Ironwood]

Your friend is an asshole.

[Dren]

Your friend is an asshole.

Gay porn title?

[Morfiend]

Anyways on to the main topic:  I jumped into AB on the test server and there were like 10 pallies on the other side.  Those fuckers kept doing this thing I had NEVER seen a pally do before, they would like cast a spell and instead of it barely hurting me, their allies would gain back some of their hp.  And when I DoTed someone they would cast this other spell, and my DoT would be gone.  If this new breed of pallies makes it to live, alliance wil clearly need a nerf.

Thats a Blessing that they already have. I havent really seen many pallys use it ether, but I was reading up on it, and it sounds pretty cool. Specially if the pally is using a very fast 1h weapon.

[Jayce]

Your friend is an asshole.

You are correct, sir.

He's one of those type who think that he is MISTAR UBAR GAMER and any game he can't excel in is just stupid.

I'm going to assume this was a very sarcastic post or else you've never encountered a decent Paladin player, ever.

I think someone forgot their green text today.

[Merusk]

Cevik wins the thread.  So many people responded to his bit of sarcasm that I had to re-read it to be sure I was right to interpret it as a joke the first time.

Thats a Blessing that they already have. I havent really seen many pallys use it ether, but I was reading up on it, and it sounds pretty cool. Specially if the pally is using a very fast 1h weapon.

He was describing Heals and Cleanse, not that blessing thingy.  :-D

[cevik]

He was describing Heals and Cleanse, not that blessing thingy.  :-D

:)

[cevik]

I think someone forgot their green text today.

The problem with green text is that it take some of the funny away from the joke.  I'll use green for sarcasm sometimes, but in this case you needed to think for a second that I just may be serious in order to enhance the impact of the joke.. :)

[Jayce]

I think someone forgot their green text today.

The problem with green text is that it take some of the funny away from the joke.  I'll use green for sarcasm sometimes, but in this case you needed to think for a second that I just may be serious in order to enhance the impact of the joke.. :)

I would have done it the same way, but I could not think of a better way to creatively break the news.

[Morfiend]

I lose.

[Ironwood]

Your friend is an asshole.

Gay porn title?

Seriously, I see a lot of threads that start 'This Friend of Mine did' and end up with the most ridiculous account of stupidity or cruelty.  My only conclusion is that you guys choose friends solely based on personalities that make you look better.

I would start such stories with 'This complete fuckwad I hate did....'

[Llava]

Reading this post reminded me of a few reasons I left, but it largely wasn't gameplay issues.  Sure, instances and such were boring, but that was largely my guild's fault (for being too nice: "Oh, when you hit 10 make sure to head to Westfall, I'll get my 60 Paladin and run you through the Deadmines") and I wasn't looking forward to raiding at all, but mostly I felt it was a pretty decent game.

Mostly it was because I lakced any sense of identity with my characters.  I came up with an interesting semi-personality for my Rogue, but I just could not get past how unbelievably ugly he was when I couldn't cover his mug with a scarf, and the fantasy world, but its very nature, restricts the sorts of concepts you can play.  I don't know why it matters to me so much when I almost never do any actual roleplaying, but if I don't have a good reason in the back of my head to be smacking down a foozle (aside from "cause it gives exp and maybe moneys"... I mean, like, an in-character reason) I don't really feel very interested in smacking down said foozle.

Short answer- no personality, no individuality.  Not for me.

[Strazos]

Been running my 28 tauren warrior through WSG the past couple of days, and I gotta say...

At low levels, Paladins are incredibly powerful. It's makes me very angry.

Also, the fact that all the paladins I've run up against lately are actually good (healing, cleansing, changing seals to wtf pwn me) is even more frustrating - at that level, I really have no way to kill them 1 v 1.

[cevik]

Also, the fact that all the paladins I've run up against lately are actually good (healing, cleansing, changing seals to wtf pwn me) is even more frustrating - at that level, I really have no way to kill them 1 v 1.

Because pallies can live forever, they are often left to solo defend a node in ab.  Nothing warms my heart more than a CoS + Fear while I cap the flag.. :)

[Jayce]

Been running my 28 tauren warrior through WSG the past couple of days, and I gotta say...

At low levels, Paladins are incredibly powerful. It's makes me very angry.

Also, the fact that all the paladins I've run up against lately are actually good (healing, cleansing, changing seals to wtf pwn me) is even more frustrating - at that level, I really have no way to kill them 1 v 1.

Try hamstring/kiting them.  They have no ranged attack (unless they have engineering) so if you can stay out of melee range, you are teh win.

Problem is, you have to outlast them, which means you might fall asleep doing so.

[Zetor]

Pallies are pretty uber at low levels. They can get a nasty mace at level 20 that's good until the mid-30s [kinda like the warrior whirlwind quest, only 10 levels earlier] if they have guildies helping them with their quest. It's the mid-40s when the suck starts to set in... I have a lv48 pally and even though I literally never die while doing quests and grinding mobs, it's slooooow. It doesn't help that there are virtually no pally-friendly quest rewards [ie. plate with +int] until level 60, and even then it's sparse.
However, I agree with cevik that they are an insanely useful support class if played right. The fact that 90% of the pally populace thinks the best use of the class is getting a huge-ass 2h, loading up on str/crit gear and trying to melee dps while letting all teammates die, then failing to kill their target, bubbling, going oom with one heal and dying makes me sadf.

Anyway, I think a warlock is best for solo node defense. :p Either SL with felhunter [rogue-proof, can dispel most CC, pet is insanely hard to kill with spells], affliction with imp [coex kite and draintank with infinite mana, stick CoA on flag cappers.. though it's getting fixed next patch] or SM/ruin with succubus [if you're not alliance].


-- Z.

[cevik]

Anyway, I think a warlock is best for solo node defense. :p Either SL with felhunter [rogue-proof, can dispel most CC, pet is insanely hard to kill with spells], affliction with imp [coex kite and draintank with infinite mana, stick CoA on flag cappers.. though it's getting fixed next patch] or SM/ruin with succubus [if you're not alliance].

I agree.  I can hold off 5 guys for so damn long with my NF/SL build that it's not even funny.  And likely 2 of them will be dead by the time my team arrives (and my team ain't slow at all)..

[Strazos]

Try hamstring/kiting them.  They have no ranged attack (unless they have engineering) so if you can stay out of melee range, you are teh win.

Problem is, you have to outlast them, which means you might fall asleep doing so.

Um, I thought you had to have a ranged attack in order to kite?

And besides, they'll just hit me with one of their handful of stuns.

But it's ok, because every now and then, I get to land a big fat Execute, and it makes the hardship sooo worth it.

[Valmorian]

And besides, they'll just hit me with one of their handful of stuns.

Hammer of Wrath [edit: I mean Hammer of Justice], and optionally Repentance (Which isn't a stun, it's a sleep and breaks on any damage) IF the Paladin is specced 31 points into Retribution.  The only other stun that is a class ability is a seal that gives attacks a chance to proc a 2 second stun, which is very rarely used by Paladins for the simple fact that it is completely random and therefore not very useful as a form of action denial.

My Paladin has 1 Stun on demand every 45 seconds.  Holy specced Paladins can stun once every 60 seconds. 

Not exactly a handful, more like 1.

[Calantus]

Warriors are quite pathetic against paladins in that bracket because you lack the skills that lvl 60 warriors tend to use against paladins, mostly pummel and mortal strike.

[Strazos]

Well, it certainly Feels like i get stunned a lot fighting paladins.

[Llava]

Well, it certainly Feels like i get stunned a lot fighting paladins.

That's just the game telling you, "Look.  He's a Paladin.  I'm not even going to bother calculating or animating that attack you just did.  He's a friggin Paladin.  Do something else."

[Strazos]

Damn Healadins.

[Jayce]

Um, I thought you had to have a ranged attack in order to kite?

Mortal strike so they can't heal as well, pummel it when they try, and keep rend and deep wounds on them.


And here's an anecdote about pallies, especially healadins:
This weekend we wiped at the Sulfuron Harbinger boss in MC.  Left standing were four pallies.  They tanked that boss for probably 15 minutes - long enough for our rogues to run back, re-enter the instance, and stealth back to them.

The whole time they did a grand total of 10% of his hit points before finally going down.

[Strazos]

Mortal strike so they can't heal as well, pummel it when they try, and keep rend and deep wounds on them.

Don't have either yet, hehe.

[Margalis]

Let my got off topic. (And back to the original topic) To clarify my thoughts. I don't like quests. I realize I am in the minority here but to me quests are very arbitrary and transparent.

In the end, the name of the game is to get XP. In a game without quests I get XP by killing what I want. In a game with quests I am led by the nose to kill 10 harpies to get 10 tail feathers. I may not like fighting harpies but that is where the XP is.

I would like quests if they felt meaningful to me, but they don't. I actually prefer just setting up a camp and pulling random mobs. Most quests in MMORPGs are just busy work. And I hate busy work. I'd rather just do something for no reason than do something for a lame pretense.

Maybe quests that advanced the story would be more interesting. "I need 10 tiger skulls - go kill some tigers" doesn't do anything for me at all. If I feel like killing tigers for XP I will. If I feel like killing something else I will. Fuck your tiger skulls.

I think people who view quests as somehow a lot more different and interesting than standard grinding for XP are easily fooled. They are just grinding for XP with slightly different clothing.

[AcidCat]

I think people who view quests as somehow a lot more different and interesting than standard grinding for XP are easily fooled. They are just grinding for XP with slightly different clothing.

It's flavor, like so many other things in the game. It adds interest, it adds entertainment - I know I found many quests amusing for one reason or another. They serve a purpose, guiding first time players through unfamiliar zone progression. Grinding for XP with different clothing? People like clothing, it adds variety, it adds to the experience. My gear is just a set of numbers, why do I care what it looks like? I do, it's flavor. Environments are just holding pens for mobile bags of xp, what does it matter if they're aesthetically pleasing and immersive? All of these games are just "grinding xp" - it's all the other "clothing" on top that really makes the game what it is.

[Dren]

Agree.  Quests are just a flavoring put on top of grinding.  It gives me a list I can check off as I make my way through the game.  I'm not fooled at all.

WoW wouldn't be WoW without the quests.  They seem to be pretty successful.

[Jayce]

It really is a matter of opinion though.  To say that people who like quests are "easily fooled' is like saying that people who watch TV are easily fooled.  Hey man, I have a secret:  it's just actors and ketchup, that guy didn't really just die.

I liked the quests the first time through.  My wife is now playing the first time through and while there are some pointless quests, some actually have a good storyline and make you feel like you really are the one and only agent of the Mayor of Darkshire or whatever.

I am leveling a second character to 60 now and I am preferring grinding this time around, so essentially I'm playing the game like you do Margalis.  But I still disagree with your basic premise, that the name of the game is XP.  To me that's like saying that the reason we watch sports is to gain encyclopedic knowledge of who won and who lost.  It's a lot more efficient just to read the sports pages the next morning and dedicate the evenings to memorizing sports encyclopedias.

But in both cases I think the experience is still important.  You could even make a case that if the end becomes more important than the journey, you've lost sight of the point of the game.

[Lt.Dan]

Give me quest grinding over camp checks and lists anyday.  At least there is some semblence of purpose, rather just watching a bar gradually edge upward.

[Margalis]

I agree with all you guys in theory. I like flavor. I like cool quests, I like cool looking equipment.

"The harpies have stolen some supplies and you have to go kill some harpies and find the supply boxes" is not flavor for me. It's a fantasy-themed mad-libs. And the quest text and dialog in WoW are very poorly written and immersion is certainly not a strong suit. Cities are designed for a purely utilitarian basis, nobody in the entire world says a word unless they are a vendor or quest-giver, etc.

Maybe 1/10 quests in WoW is what I would call vaguely interesting. The rest are just paint-by-numbers stuff. I'm not one of those people that has to complete every quest or grab every item.

You can say that WoW must be doing something right because it is very popular. True. Then again, Britney Spears must be doing something right. Some popular things are very good, some are not.

The key point here is that I don't want to feel that I am being given a "semblence of purpose." I want to feel actual purpose, or else not bother. In the end I know it is a game and there is no *real* purpose, but I can suspend my disbelief and buy into the purpose being stated for the right game. If I feel the game is just going through the motions then I don't by into it.

Some fiction is contrived and some is not. The reality is that all fiction is fiction, but not all fiction is contrived. WoW quests are mostly contrived. Basically "well...people prefer quests so let's make a quest - um how about go collect some turnips!"

As far as my comment about XP - these games are about XP. That's not me talking. I like to take my time in games. I don't feel the need to rush around grabbing XP - if I'm having fun I really don't care how much XP I'm getting. But most people really aren't like that. These games are about hitting the next level and once that's over getting the next item.

[Rasix]

This is just a question to get a point of reference but you seem to be talking like you've experienced a good deal of the content. Did you go any farther than a sub level 20 player horde side starting with arguably the most boring horde starting race (orc/troll)? Did you ever make it over to the undead area?

[Dren]

I can't say WoW does quests the best, but I can say that between the Alliance and Horde quests, Alliance wins hands down.  I played Horde with you peeps just past 20 and there is no comparison.

The team that designed Horde low level questing hopefully has been let go.  I don't want to see that kind of content continued in expansions.  Bleh.

[Zetor]

Yeah... I played horde and alliance myself, and horde quests suck below 30ish. Duskwood > *.
However, 40-55ish seems to be easier as horde, as all the major quest hubs except for thorium point (which is minor anyway) are easily accessible from org, while alliance have to continent-hop a lot (there's no alliance-friendly poison vendor anywhere in southern kalimdor for example).
Doesn't make much of a difference in the end, though.


-- Z.