Remembering why I left.

[pxib]

I dropped by to see my father today and he was playing World of Warcraft (it occupies more and more of his time, much to my mother's distress). He mentioned that my brother and his fiancee are playing again and asked if I wanted to spend some time playing again. Dad still considers it my account because I'm paying for it. I assured him that I wasn't terribly interested... but the thought was intriguing (I've been away long enough that I thought I could see it fresh, my interest in Guildwars has waned, and I still have the software installed), so I let him know I'd start up a character on the new server they'd all chosen.

I got to level 8 before I began to recall the reasons for my absence, and level 11 before I gave up completely.

First, Guildwars comparisons:

1) Having played Guildwars, I cannot tolerate meaningless travel time. Getting there may be half the fun, but getting back is NOT. Being sent a long distance only to be required to return the same with little more than a few words and a salute is maddening. Pointless adventures around Durotar only reminded me of future pointless adventures around the WHOLE CONTINENT... or those which would span the world.

2) Guildwars also spoiled me with easy access to generic henchmen. It's easy to find somebody to help you with quests in the starting areas of WoW, because there are always a lot of beginners, but even by level 10 that's starting to thin. Running back and forth to join people whose capabilities and personalities are undefined is an exercise in futility.

3) Some bastard wandering by and killing the boss I need for a quest after I've killed everything else... and asked if he'd like to join a group with me for that purpose. He did not respond, killed the boss, and ran off. The instanced world has all sorts of flaws, but in keeping this sort out of my way it excelled.

Annoying quests:

4) The first quest type for you to reconsider if you ever make one of these MMOmonsrosities is "find X of Y that drops randomly off of Z". Nothing is less fun than killing a dozen Z's without getting a single Y... or finally getting X-1 Y's and realizing you still have no idea how much longer the quest will take. Also, grouping to finish this sort of quest actually feels counter-productive because you come to see that your odds of being the person who gets a Y are even lower. "I've got all the Y's I need... why am I still helping you fifteen minutes later?"

5) Escort quests. In theory: YES! In practice: NO! I don't want to wait for the NPC to reappear because either somebody else has done it or I have failed some time in the past hour. I don't want to be trying to kill threats to the escortee while he strolls off to find three more. I want to choose the pace rather than running circles around him.

6) Did I mention it's no fun to have to run back and forth a long distance over and over again? Finding out that there's another step to one of those things makes me scream.

Then generally:

7) Tradeskills that require a lot of time or money to produce things I don't really need.
8) Guilds with no purpose other than as an additional chat channel.
9) Baobao challenges you to a duel!
10) "level ?? elf on the road"



I don't miss it. Not a bit. I can barely even remember what I once enjoyed.

[Paelos]

I liked escorting that chicken to his UFO or whatever. I thought it was funny.

As for the rest, I agree. That's mostly why I only play my one 60 and never looked back. I think it's up to 50 days played and 34 of them at 60.

[Teleku]

Meh, I actually found the 1-59 game to be very fun.  I've leveled up about 3 chars to 60 since the game has been out, starting a new one after I take a break for awhile.  With WOW, I find I actually enjoy the process of leveling up my character.  Which has NEVER happened for me in the past with mmogs, which killed me with the boring PvE.  I am also raiding for the first time in any mmog as well, since a friend got me into a big and very nice guild, which has turned out to be pretty damn fun.  The high end boss encounters are actually really fun (except for Vael.  FUCK YOU!).

[Margalis]

I don't remember what I found fun either - probably because I never found it fun. Run around and kill shit the MMORPG. Sign me up!

The term "high concept" certainly doesn't apply here. In my old age I tend to get bored more easily especially when a game is simple to understand and WoW is nothing if not simple. Simple is fine if you have fun gameplay but WoW really doesn't.

[Jayce]

Since we're all representing our opinions as fact, here's mine:

I could basically have written Teleku's post (except the three level 60's part.  I'm not there yet, but I'm sure I will be one day).

I could have written Margalis' post... in an opposite but parallel universe.  I basically disagree with everything he said.  I find WoW's gameplay extremely fun - in itself alone, but even moreso when compared to what else is out there.  I still can't beleive I used to login as a freshly minted level one in <insert game> and just start killing snakes and bats aimlessly.

I'm old too, but patient, so maybe that accounts for me not getting all arsed up about someone stealing my kills like the OP.  Seems to me that the OP doesn't like WoW because of the variety in quests, but Margalis doesn't like it because the quests are too much the same (run around and kill shit).  Maybe I misunderstand but that's my reading.

[Mesozoic]

My GW experiences were different. 

I couldn't solo because the henchmen were shit while still sucking up most of the XP.

I couldn't group because people would bail on the instance as soon as there was any kind of setback or disagreement on how to proceed.

[Triforcer]

Since we're all representing our opinions as fact, here's mine:

I could have written Margalis' post... in an opposite but parallel universe.  I basically disagree with everything he said.  I find WoW's gameplay extremely fun - in itself alone, but even moreso when compared to what else is out there.  I still can't beleive I used to login as a freshly minted level one in <insert game> and just start killing snakes and bats aimlessly.

Before UO2 was derailed the first time, I remember them making a dev statement about the kinds of creatures you kill at low levels.  They had a screenshot of a brand new character felling a 20 foot minotaur.  Not a game-making idea, but sort of nice for the newb ego 

[Strazos]

I can play WoW, but not with random people. I'm with a couple of my buddies now.

But they invited me to their guild. I open up the Guild Chat, and I'm bombarded with "o rly" owls and other spam macros.

Fuck that.

[cevik]

But they invited me to their guild. I open up the Guild Chat, and I'm bombarded with "o rly" owls and other spam macros.

Fuck that.

They coded in a super easy way to deal with that:

/gkick

[Strazos]

Oh, I already /gquit, I don't need that nonsense cluttering up my chat windows.

[cevik]

Oh, I already /gquit, I don't need that nonsense cluttering up my chat windows.

Just FYI, I've never seen a guild that would tolerate that.  If you really really want to like WoW you're going to need to find a good guild that works together (just like any other online game, including FPSs, if you want to have fun, you're going to need to find other likeminded people).  Don't let one fucktarded guild let you not shop around for the right guild.

[Strazos]

I honestly don't care about "high end content" - I just want to play with my friends. When I get to 60 eventually (if I ever do), I won't be caught dead or alive in anything above the "casual" instances. Not only do I refuse to sit around in a clusterfuck raid, but I also refuse to respec because someone tells me to, and I will also never go into someone else's Vent/TS.

I had a hard enough time dealing with listening to Schild on TS. I might have a cerebral embolism or something if I have to listen to the average WoW gamer go on about how one warrior spec produces 3% more rage per hit than another build with 1 talent being the only difference.

Also, I never, ever even entertained the idea of joining a clan for a FPS, where it's not even neccessary. I perfer to jump onto random servers when I play.

[cevik]

I honestly don't care about "high end content" - I just want to play with my friends. When I get to 60 eventually (if I ever do), I won't be caught dead or alive in anything above the "casual" instances. Not only do I refuse to sit around in a clusterfuck raid, but I also refuse to respec because someone tells me to, and I will also never go into someone else's Vent/TS.

I'm in one of the "best" guilds on my server.  If they told me how to spec I'd tell them where to shove it and the guild leader knows as much.

And I'm not talking about high end instances, I'm just talking about having a sane group of people to have fun with so you don't have to go looking for that (a thing which you'll never find without picking a choosing a guild) every time you need it.  I'm talking about a group to go jaunt through ZF with because you need a carrot on a stick, or a group to go to BFD with because you just feel like going through BFD.  I'm saying "if I were you, I'd find a group of people that it's fun to play with, because it enhances the playing experiene."

But you do whatever pleases you, that's why it's a game! :)

[Rasix]

Comments on specific points raised:

1.  Without travel time, you lack a world.  Guildwars point and click insta-port system made for a world that I had no sense of.  I couldn't really tell the flow of how certain areas lead to another. It wasn't a continent or landmass, it was just a point and click map.  I found it extremely counter immersive.

WOW's travel system does have a number of flaws, however. 

-Most classes don't get an intermediate travel form at 20 to tide you over until you get mounts at 40. 
-The two most popular raid locations do not have any sort of instant port anywhere close.  They're both far from the population centers and in the case of Silithius it's only got one route in and out and NO direct flight paths from a population center.
-Hearthstone timer is arguably too long.

Otherwise, you can pretty much get to any place in the world in about 10-15 minutes.  Longest conceivable trek of Silith to Kargath should take about that long.  Only people really attempting that would be level 60s and most 60s probably don't bind in Cenarian Hold.

2.  Never had a problem finding people when I needed them for quests.  But I'm mostly a soloer as far as leveling goes and only seek out others when it's in my benefit.  Access to a henchman system would be kind of nice, but they'd have to be significantly less retarded than GWs.  If possible, I'd rather they just include more quests like the "assault the elves" quest in Ashenvale where you help a group of NPCs conquer an outpost.

3.  Yep, instancing removes assholes.  Of course, instancing would remove the smirk from my face when I FROSTSHOCK! the mob before the other guy can tag it.  Next time they'll likely agree to group.

4. Yep, these quests suck. Only group for them if you're grouping with friends.  Most of these are quests are designed for solo advancement (except those that require instances).

5. I love escort quests.  Just love them.  Only real part I don't like is when the mob moves too slow.  I like them to be hectic. Most tend to respawn in less than 5-10 minutes.  Soloing or duoing escort quests is just a great test of the utility and survivability of your class/build.  I wish there were more escort/assault quests in the game. 

6. Noob running sucks. Get to 40 buy a mount. YAY! Get to 60, farm till your fingers break, get a faster mount. YAY!  I can see how this would turn people off.  The barrens especially can get quite tedius in the amount of running you end up having to do.  Having done the quests in these areas long enough, I know how plot out my course so there's little running without a purpose.

7. Well, this is mostly wrong. But heh, your impression.

8.  WTF am I doing then?

9.  /ignore Baobao. I think you can set it so you deny all duels also.

10.  Not on a PVP server.  Can't speak much to the ganking or what's your real issue here.

I don't much care for the 1-59 game anymore because I've already done it twice.  I enjoyed it on my shaman because I leveled with my friends.  I enjoyed it on my rogue because I got to attempt a lot of quests from a different perspective with vastly different tactics. None of my alts last past the early twenties anymore, which sucks, because my guild just opened up MC to brining alts.  Someone's fucking rogue twink got 5 set pieces in one night. 

[Dren]

I was wondering why you had left pxib.  I'm glad you cleared that up!

Otherwise, what Rasix said except I still enjoy the 1-59 game.  My altaholic nature is at an all time high with 7 total characters at the moment.  Anything beats avoiding raiding as much as possible.

Finding a good guild is key as said earlier.  I was close to quitting about 3 months ago until my friends and I found our current guild.  Now, I'm very satisfied.

[Morfiend]

I still really enjoy WOW. As most of you guys know, I have been in the same guild since closed beta, and we do pretty well for our selves. We started off as heavy PVP, but the battlegrounds and honor system kind of killed the "world pvp" that we liked. Also, you can only pvp so much. We then shifted our guild focus to PVE. We started a big PVE push about 2 months ago. In that time we killed Rag, which we had been unable to do before, and started work on BWL. We are currently up to Ebonroc in BWL, but we have had a bad 2 weeks, with Spring Break and Finals.

I have 2 level 60 characters on that server, a rogue and a warlock. I use my rogue for World PVP, and for PVE. I play my warlock for AV (which is a blast).

I am also currently working on Twisting Nether (RP-PVP) as a Paladin, since it was the only class I hadnt got to lvl20+. (OH MY GOD ITS EASY). I am actually having fun going through all the Alliance quests, and reading them for the lore and story. Also, while im not a big RPer, having people around RPing just helps with the atmosphere of the game. So far my Pally just hit lvl 26.

[Yegolev]

I might enjoy WoW more if I didn't feel like I had experienced most of what it had to offer, at least the things I am interested in.  If certain other games were not around, I'd probably be playing.

[Triforcer]

I am having fun in WoW again after absolutely having burnt out getting my mage to 60.  Leveling a druid (25 currently) is so much more fun than my mage it is un-freakin-believable.  I can solo things 4 lvls above me, do stealth assassinations, lot of fun diverse tactics in PvP (much more so than my standard response to every class with my mage) and my character even at 25 is in more demand for groups.  I only wish I had been smart enough to click on "druid" way back last year...

[Dren]

Choice on the class you like is very important in WoW.  I was ready to quit due to the boredom that is Paladin.  I switched my thinking to trying out 5 different alts and find my niche.  I am having way more fun with my warlock now.  There is no comparison.  That and a good guild has kept me playing for the last 4-5 months.

[Jayce]

I think it really depends on the individual too.  Some people love the monotonous predictability and resilience to death that is pally-hood.  I have never even had the slightest inclination to start one though.

[angry.bob]

I am also currently working on Twisting Nether (RP-PVP) as a Paladin, since it was the only class I hadn't got to lvl20+. (OH MY GOD ITS EASY).

Don't worry, it starts to really slow down in the mid to late 30's. By the time you hit the mid 40's you'll dread the thought of even playing the toon. Sure, you have to work hard at dying, but taking minutes to kill even greens while using a purple weapon and no way to stop runners except for farmed defias nets gets helltasticly old. Plus, there isn't anything a pally can do that a different class doesn't do way, way better. And the class revamp actually made the class much worse. It was pretty much a spit in the eye compared to every other class revamp they did.

Oh, and good luck on keeping up with the repair bills. Warriors bitch about them, but having mobs beat on you for 3 minutes at a time really tears up your gear.

[Yegolev]

The solution to the pally repair bills should be to have them die quicker.  I hate god-damned paladins.  Those shiteaters just won't die.

[angry.bob]

The solution to the pally repair bills should be to have them die quicker.  I hate god-damned paladins.  Those shiteaters just won't die.

Yeah, but it's not like they can kill you either. Just do what everyone else does: Pretend they're a marginally annoying part of the landscape.

[Yegolev]

The solution to the pally repair bills should be to have them die quicker.  I hate god-damned paladins.  Those shiteaters just won't die.

Yeah, but it's not like they can kill you either. Just do what everyone else does: Pretend they're a marginally annoying part of the landscape.

I learned very quickly to ignore them and take down the gnomes instead.

[Valmorian]

Sure, you have to work hard at dying, but taking minutes to kill even greens while using a purple weapon and no way to stop runners except for farmed defias nets gets helltasticly old.

Minutes to kill greens?  Surely you exaggerate.   I don't ever recalling it taking minutes to kill greens at any time when I was levelling my paladin, and that was with a 1hs.

Also, there IS a seal/judgement combination that stops runners.

Plus, there isn't anything a pally can do that a different class doesn't do way, way better.

Duh.  That's what a hybrid is like.

And the class revamp actually made the class much worse. It was pretty much a spit in the eye compared to every other class revamp they did.

How did the revamp make the class "much worse"? 

Oh, and good luck on keeping up with the repair bills. Warriors bitch about them, but having mobs beat on you for 3 minutes at a time really tears up your gear.

I've never had any repair problems with my Paladin.

[Morfiend]

The solution to the pally repair bills should be to have them die quicker.  I hate god-damned paladins.  Those shiteaters just won't die.

Yeah, but it's not like they can kill you either. Just do what everyone else does: Pretend they're a marginally annoying part of the landscape.

Well, maybe they cant kill you, but they can sure as hell heal the person your fighting while beating on you. I am not going in to playing a paladin with any preconceived notion that I will be a dps badass. Pallys probably have the worst DPS in the game. Having said that, there is one thing they absolutly excell at. Thats being the bast damn support/combat healers there is.

You right, I will probably get burnt out on him before I reach 60, but as of right now its fun, and a big change from my rogue or warlock. My rogue will always be my frist and greatest love. He is just SO fun to play. I love the frantic fast paced action of playing a rogue in pvp.

[Train Wreck]

I pick and choose which quests to do.  I prefer Killing and Farming quests because you have to kill things to level up anyway, so I see them as free xp.  I have no compunction passing quests up that require me to travel to some out of the way place.

[Fabricated]

Pallys aren't bad. There are just too many of them. I'd rather have a pally in my party any day over a rogue or a hunter. One of my best friends is a pally and he has saved groups I've been in more times than I can count.

Their DPS is glacial, but their survival abilties are almost broken. We were 4-manning Stratholme live out of boredom and accidentally pulled one too many scarlet crusaders. By the time I died (and subsequentially our priest and 'lock) we were down to 2 elites at full health and one at about 10%.

The nearly dead one pulled a runner and my pally friend chased him back to a small hallway. I didn't see what happened, but 10-12 minutes later he came back and rezzed us after killing all three of those elites. Alone.

[Morfiend]

Pallys aren't bad. There are just too many of them.

On the older servers this seems to be true, but on the newer servers they seems to be one of the lowest population classes.

[Dren]

I'm seriously considering changing my paladin to a healing maniac.  That includes changing talents to do so, plus getting all gear related to healing even if it means going away from Plate. 

Most the time I stop attacking things in raids just to help heal anyway, so why not go full heal spec?  I suppose I'll go holy/def to be the hardest to kill priest around.

[El Gallo]

Paladins are a freakishly powerful healing and support class.  Luckily for the Horde, 99.9% of paladin players think they are rogues in plate.

[Merusk]

ElGallo is so correct that it's painful.  I've encountered exactly 2 paladins who even attempted to fit into the support role.  The rest were drooling about slow 2hders and +str +crit gear.  It makes my mana pool cry as I'm spamming Prayer of Healing to cover the mages and the offtank while the paladin tries their "nukes" and spamming fucking Consecration.  Goddamn people.

[cevik]

ElGallo is so correct that it's painful.  I've encountered exactly 2 paladins who even attempted to fit into the support role.

I went to the test server last night to try a destro spec on my lock (without spending my hard earned gold on the respec).  I decided I like the spec a little, but I need more time to see if I can deal with the complete lack of survivability (but man, 3 shotting everyone in sight was pretty nifty).

Anyways on to the main topic:  I jumped into AB on the test server and there were like 10 pallies on the other side.  Those fuckers kept doing this thing I had NEVER seen a pally do before, they would like cast a spell and instead of it barely hurting me, their allies would gain back some of their hp.  And when I DoTed someone they would cast this other spell, and my DoT would be gone.  If this new breed of pallies makes it to live, alliance wil clearly need a nerf.

[Ironwood]

The class is working as intended.  The players aren't.

[AcidCat]

I think you see the same effect with Shamans to a lesser extent - people see a class that has the potential to swing around a big weapon and can also heal. "Heck why roll a Warrior or Rogue when I can poke people with my big e-peen stick AND heal myself too! Sign me up!"