Aces High II

[Engels]

Hello all,

Long time reader (1999 or so, back in the LtM days) here.

I'm wondering if anyone here has ever taken a peek at Aces High II. Ralph Coster would probably have an embolism if someone suggested this game is an MMO, but I think it might fit the criteria. Here's a few reasons why.

A persistent world.
Anywhere from 100 to 700 people online, in the same gamespace, duking it out in planes, tanks and ships.
The need for collaborative game play to achieve 'victory'.
A monthly fee.
Squadrons, aka 'guilds'.
An established player base going back well over 2 years.

The reason I decided to post about it was to see if people have an open mind about game genres in the MMO market. I'm not afiliated with any game company, marketing company, or anything of the sort, but I have always felt that somehow the flight sim community has always been a gaming red-headed stepchild.

[WayAbvPar]

Ralph Coster would probably have an embolism if someone suggested this game is an MMO, but I think it might fit the criteria.

I am guessing that isn't what would cause the embolism.

[Yegolev]

Long time reader (1999 or so, back in the LtM days) here.
...
Ralph Coster

Danger, Will Robinson!

[Reg]

It sounds like fun. But it's "Raph" Koster - short for Raphael I think. You're going to get a lot of grief for that mistake. :)

[Yegolev]

He should get more grief for his ham-handed marketing tactics.

[WayAbvPar]

I figured we would give him the benefit of the doubt and only mock one thing at a time. If he proves to be some douchebag viral marketing plant, we can always Den it.

[cevik]

Hey man, I think I can help you and your company out.  See my sig.

If you need some examples of my work, I can put together a list of links for ya.

[Catalan]

Aces High was my first "pay to play" online game. My boss, in an internet boom era extravaganza gave me a 12 month sub (at $30/mo back at the time) as a b-day present. I kept playing for a couple of years.

Best online simulator experience, impressive dev team, excellent flight models, awesome community (I still visit the forums after not playing for more than 3 years), Dated graphics for today.

The learning curve is extremely steep. It takes weeks of dedication just being able to fly straight enough to manage to shoot down another newbie. I retired being average/bad.... but the feeling after downing someone "famous" was awesome.

About the post, I'd reckon this is an overzealous fan... HTC is well above this boardspamming thingie.

[Murgos]

The idea is that you build a reputation at the site and then people don't question (as much) why you are making recommendations.  17 posts doesn't cut it.   



edit: Damn that thing is ugly.

[Reg]

The idea is that you build a reputation at the site and then people don't question (as much) why you are making recommendations.  17 posts doesn't cut it.   

And that's as good a reason as any for Schild to take away the silly post counts as far as I'm concerned.

[Wolf]

The idea is that you build a reputation at the site and then people don't question (as much) why you are making recommendations.  17 posts doesn't cut it.   

And that's as good a reason as any for Schild to take away the silly post counts as far as I'm concerned.

What? No. I still have to get to 500 to have the russian movie conversation with him. After that I don't care :)

[Yegolev]

It wasn't really the post count.  It was (at least) the claim of being a long time reader, followed by several mistakes.  The first one was "Ralph Coster", but there are others.  However, he didn't make a link back to the subscription page, so there's still a chance.  Hell, he might make a turnaround yet, but this is as good a time for the initiation as any.  I am always willing to allow others an opportunity to change my opinion.

[Nebu]

The idea is that you build a reputation at the site and then people don't question (as much) why you are making recommendations.  17 posts doesn't cut it.   

And that's as good a reason as any for Schild to take away the silly post counts as far as I'm concerned.

1. Intelligent thought can be independent of postcount. This isn't VN.

2. There are practical reasons to have postcount.  Especially for sites attempting to obtain advertising partners.

[Murgos]

I was more than half-way joking about Catalan.  His post seemed harmless, as did the original.  Sure it's shilling for a product but it's a product pertinant to our interests and if you hang out here and aren't steeped in caveat emptor where MMOG's are concerned by now you are one naive puppy.

[Morfiend]

My first thought was Virtual Marketing also. But in his defence I thought "Raph" was "Ralph" for a few years. My brain just read it that way.

[Catalan]

I think most high post count people are so busy posting that they underestimate how much lurking goes on here.
I'm not here since the LtM days, more like from the last couple of months of waterthread, but I click on the f13 bookmark about 10-15 times a day and read many threads end to end... Hell I have even read the whole online poker monster thread and I've never played poker, and never will as it doesn't interest me in the slightest. But the thread was fun to read.
But see guys, by now I remember the best flamewars, get all the inside jokes and know what every poster thinks about everything, just like the cool ten-thousand-post guys. It's just that I don't post. Maybe because I don't have much to add, or my ego can't take the heat, or that just being somewhat articulate it's fucking hard because english is not my first language. But I loved AH back in the day and keep a lot of respect and admiration to the small and dedicated indie team that makes it, and didn't want their image trashed here because of a clumsy post.
I'll stop now, see what you made me do... at this rate i'll soon get to 20 posts and risk blowing my cover. I'll better burrow back to my hideout.

[cevik]

But I loved AH back in the day and keep a lot of respect and admiration to the small and dedicated indie team that makes it, and didn't want their image trashed here because of a clumsy post.

To be fair, AH is one of those games that spawn followers that exist forever and ever as AH guys.  I do not doubt your story.

But I am in buisiness here, I so if you are a viral mole, feel free to contact me.. :)

[Engels]

Boy, you are a tough crowd! No, I am in no way afiliated with the AH2 team. Yes, I made the mistake of calling Raph Ralph, but I blame that on insuficient coffee this morning.

To be honest, I'm not even that interested in you all discussing AH2 in particular, just on-line flight simulation. I made the post about AH2 simply because its the only on-line flight sim I've found that has an mmo feel to it. You can talk about WW2 online, but I think Lum covered that pretty well with the unforgettable phrase, "Taxiing to Victory".

I was hoping for more people like Catalan (hey, I'm from Barcelona, small world) posting about their experiences with the game.

I'd agree with Catalan that AH2 has a semi-steep learning curve if you have not been a flight simulator player in the past. If you do have experience with flight simulators, the controls are actually pretty simple, and although the game does try to stick to a semi-realistic flight model, it is by no means meant for actual trained pilots.

As to my own online credentials, I was reading Lum and Tweety before many of you people showed up, so stuff your 'I'm old school' nonsense. You have a regular poster here, name of Numtini, who will know me as Tinnax and can vouch for me. She and I used to grind in Kunark together, and have been part of the same online gaming community for a long long time.

[Signe]

If Numtini loves you enough to grind with you in Kunark, then you're okay by me.  Numtini is lovely.  Don't mind the angsty lot... they're not so lovely on Mondays.

[Hoax]

I dont think that there is too much of a market for an actual flight-sim MMO, a more arcade-style combat system where everyone is in planes (say Crimson Skies) might work, and would give us a much needed new set of visuals or a space-combat game with freespace-style combat, things like that have been tried before I'm fairly certain.

A true flight-sim though, where if you don't read those Jane's books or fly planes is going to take someone several hours if not days to figure out how to get the plane off the ground might not even be worthy of niche MMO status.  I could be wrong, as it really depends on just how many of the historic war recreation types are into online gaming but I dont expect that is a larger fanbase to draw from.

[WayAbvPar]

A semi-hardcore flight sim would do better as a battlefield simulator ala Battlefield 2 (or Aces High, Air Warrior, etc). The twitch factor doesn't mesh well with latency on huge MMOG servers.

[Nebu]

A semi-hardcore flight sim would do better as a battlefield simulator ala Battlefield 2 (or Aces High, Air Warrior, etc). The twitch factor doesn't mesh well with latency on huge MMOG servers.

I'm not sure about this.  My biggest perceived shortcoming with BF1942 was that it lacked a role for infantry.  Run to the spawn, grab a tank or a plane, and render infantry nearly obsolete mentality.  I'd much prefer that they make a game that's a WWI or WWII flight sim game or a similar infantry-based battle sim.  I'd personally love a game that catered to WWI biplanes much like the old book game Ace of Aces if anyone is old enough to remember that.

I'm actually excited about the potential that this title could have.  Sadly, I'm not sure it will reach anything beyond an interesting shoot-em-up... but I can hope.

[Viin]

Does Cosmic Rift (aka Subspace) count?

[Morfiend]

As to my own online credentials, I was reading Lum and Tweety before many of you people showed up, so stuff your 'I'm old school' nonsense.

My epeen just shrank.


As to online flight sims. Not for me. Maybe if it was more like massivly online crimson skys, I could handle it. Other than that, I simply suck at flight sims. Hell, in battlefield2 pretty much all I can do is take off then barrel-roll right in to the ground. I can fly the helicopter pretty well though.

[Engels]

A semi-hardcore flight sim would do better as a battlefield simulator ala Battlefield 2 (or Aces High, Air Warrior, etc). The twitch factor doesn't mesh well with latency on huge MMOG servers.

Well, that's the funny thing; they have done it. The server holds 700 players tops and then has a spill over server for excess. Whatever lag you find in the game is normally client side lag, not server side. That's why I think this game really has some miraculous physics behind it. It does a very decent job of doing all the calculations for 700 folks at once while retaining a playability for each player.

The game is twitch when you play the role of fighter or tank. But there are long-distance bombing runs that require preparation and some thought. The only twitch factor there is not losing your cool as you drop your load above an airfield through heavy flack with 3 spitfires climbing to intercept.

In a sense, it is BF2, but its with hundreds of players at once. That allows a community to form. Not that that's the only factor. Wow has more players, but less community than AH2. Its always a miriad of factors.

[Nebu]

As to my own online credentials, I was reading Lum and Tweety before many of you people showed up, so stuff your 'I'm old school' nonsense. You have a regular poster here, name of Numtini, who will know me as Tinnax and can vouch for me. She and I used to grind in Kunark together, and have been part of the same online gaming community for a long long time.

Some advice:

1) Stop caring about what people here think of you and post your opinions articulately.  It will go further.  

2) Having someone "vouch" for you on a gaming forum is a cry for help.  See #1.

3) Anyone worth having an interesting discussion with will judge you based on your ability to articulate your points.  The rest are white noise.

[Engels]

As to my own online credentials, I was reading Lum and Tweety before many of you people showed up, so stuff your 'I'm old school' nonsense. You have a regular poster here, name of Numtini, who will know me as Tinnax and can vouch for me. She and I used to grind in Kunark together, and have been part of the same online gaming community for a long long time.

Some advice:

1) Stop caring about what people here think of you and post your opinions articulately.  It will go further.  

2) Having someone "vouch" for you on a gaming forum is a cry for help.  See #1.

3) Anyone worth having an interesting discussion with will judge you based on your ability to articulate your points.  The rest are white noise.

Dear Nebu,

My self-esteem was not at stake when posting; I merely wanted to assure the powers that be that I am not a marketing hack for AH2. Also, I think you forgot one:

4) If you are trying to gain a reputation on a website by and for disgruntled online gamers, refer to your HMO's policy on psychiatric evaluations.

[Nebu]

4) If you are trying to gain a reputation on a website by and for disgruntled online gamers, refer to your HMO's policy on psychiatric evaluations.

You win!

I actually appreciated this thread, mole or not.  I may have never otherwise heard of Aces High II and I'm a sucker for online WWII games.  I played WWII Online at release.  That alone shows just how much pain I'm willing to endure for a game in the genre. 

[WayAbvPar]

A semi-hardcore flight sim would do better as a battlefield simulator ala Battlefield 2 (or Aces High, Air Warrior, etc). The twitch factor doesn't mesh well with latency on huge MMOG servers.

Well, that's the funny thing; they have done it. The server holds 700 players tops and then has a spill over server for excess. Whatever lag you find in the game is normally client side lag, not server side. That's why I think this game really has some miraculous physics behind it. It does a very decent job of doing all the calculations for 700 folks at once while retaining a playability for each player.

The game is twitch when you play the role of fighter or tank. But there are long-distance bombing runs that require preparation and some thought. The only twitch factor there is not losing your cool as you drop your load above an airfield through heavy flack with 3 spitfires climbing to intercept.

In a sense, it is BF2, but its with hundreds of players at once. That allows a community to form. Not that that's the only factor. Wow has more players, but less community than AH2. Its always a miriad of factors.

I was thinking more along the lines of something like WWIIOL without all the tanks and infantry, or something like EVE Online with planes instead of spaceships- a single massive shard with all the players together at all times. A 700 person server is plenty for a lot of good dogfighting and battles, but still a bit snug for guild/corporation/squadron machinations (which are 1/2 the fun in PvP MMOGs!).

[Yegolev]

Boy, you are a tough crowd! No, I am in no way afiliated with the AH2 team. Yes, I made the mistake of calling Raph Ralph, but I blame that on insuficient coffee this morning.

That's good enough for me.  Not that it matters.  My blue name was an accident.  Just ask Signe.

I think I made my first post sometime last year, so don't take me seriously.  I am just beating the new monkeys because I was sprayed when I first tried to climb the chair.

[Morfiend]

 The rest are white noise.

That'd be me.

[Engels]

I was thinking more along the lines of something like WWIIOL without all the tanks and infantry, or something like EVE Online with planes instead of spaceships- a single massive shard with all the players together at all times. A 700 person server is plenty for a lot of good dogfighting and battles, but still a bit snug for guild/corporation/squadron machinations (which are 1/2 the fun in PvP MMOGs!).

Well, there's a couple of things. At any given time, there's around 150-450 players not only logged in, but actively doing things. One doesn't sit around 'chatting' in this game. I mean, you could, but its not a tradeskill fest ala EQ2. Consider a comparison to say, DAoC RvR battles. If DAoC had active RvR battles every night with 50-150 active players fighting against each other per server per side, I think one would probably say that DAoC is alive, kicking and downright feisty. If that'd represent a healthy MMO, is it the fact that its planes and tanks that makes it less of 'community'? Does there have to be active cyboring of BF109s? Or perhaps 80 tired and bored B-29 bomber pilots have to sit in a hangar for 3 hours waiting for that rare Iwojima island to spawn?


I guess I'm not seeing how its not a single, massive shard.

[schild]

The idea is that you build a reputation at the site and then people don't question (as much) why you are making recommendations. 17 posts doesn't cut it.

Heh.

[Catalan]

Ok, talking past the less-than-1000-post-guys-are-viral-marketers thing, I think there's a misunderstanding about the game in the discussion. This game is not new. It's quite old in fact.
The basic gameplay and heritage goes back to Air Warrior and Warbirds in the mid 90's, and Aces High proper has been there since 1999.

The game is extremely niche... it's only for deranged WWII aircraft rivet counters that beat each other over the heads with scanned copies of original wartime specifications to fight or justify nerfs.

The gameplay? think the air part of WWIIonline done right. No levels, no grinds, no AI planes to fire onto (so far). Of course, 60 yr. old guys with $500 joystick setups, a trackIR and thousands of hours there will pwn you again and again. Usual setting is  a three-way arena with imaginary countries that can fly planes from every WWII power. You try to capture the enemy bases until you reset the map. There are also settings for the more historically inclined.

It has some high points. There are from time to time nicely organized events recreating specific campaigns of WWII that can be very inmersive. There was even one where cadets from the USAF Academy directed the squadrons and planned the flights for one of the sides from a strategic map while we actually carried out the missions.

Technically is quite an impressive achievement... You can hang 200 yards behind a plane that's doing 700mph and trying frantically to avoid you while you try to pepper him with bullets, all without perceptible warps due to lag (most of the time), with believable physics and every single bullet modelled with up to 700 guys on the server and dozens in the inmediate vicinity. And it worked great 7 years ago, from Spain and with a 32k modem. That Hitech guy can do some "negative ping" magery fo'sure.

Lately they've been trying to incorporate more "Virtual Battelfield" elements (tanks, and some talk of infantry). My opinion is that they have the technical expertise, but lack the resources to make it happen without alienating their core customers that are there just for the planes.

So if anyone is insterested in hardcore sims, it's really worth a try... but don't go there proposing arcade stuff or relaxed realism, the natives will  lynch you.

[Yegolev]

Does there have to be active cyboring of BF109s?

Hee hee.

It does sound like fun, actually, but not for me.  I would find it fun if I wasn't playing EVE, perhaps.