Is the equipment differential really that bad?

[Ironwood]

Which is what I said.

[Heresiarch]

Green = 1, Blue = 2, Purple = 3
AV = 0.5, AB = 1, WSG = 1.5
Pug = 1, Guild = 2, Vent = 3

This doesn't work the way you want it to. .5/1/1.5 weights are identical to 1/2/3, and since you're comparing WSG teams to other WSG teams, it doesn't matter at all. You probably want something like:
Gear (WSG) Green = 1, Blue = 3, Purple = 5
Gear (AB) Green = 1, Blue = 2, Purple = 3
Gear (AV) Green = 1, Blue = 1.5, Purple = 2

My experience in team-based FPS games (which is very extensive) is that it's not the team with the rocket launcher that wins; it's the team that knows what they're doing and works together. Vent makes organization easier for casual-level teams, but for the truly hardcore among the organized, organizational skill beats all else.

The point of the thread is: does equipment differential really matter that much in PvP? The answers depend on where you are:
1) in duels, heck yeah
2) in WSG, pretty much
3) in AV or AB, not so much

Gear also matters when soloing and PvE, of course. MC is cake now for guilds that have accumulated a ton of MC gear and some BWL gear. It was cake when we figured it out, too, but now it's double-layer cake.

[HaemishM]

But on the other hand, would the mmog'ers be driven off, if say the game company said, "come join the war, when you join a battleground everyone is level 60, everyone gets the same gear and items per their class, points for better equipment and rank get earned by doing things on the battleground (capture enemy forts, kill enemy players/npc's), and the better equipment isn't that much better."  I think most would be screaming that the game company just turned the end game pvp/rvr into BF2/Planetside/UT2K.  Hmm...cool idea, the level would be split up, one level for pve for those that want to do that, and one rank that is set even for everyone for pvp.

Ask DAoC how well their battlegrounds went over. Or ask them how well it turned out when they removed level differentials for PVP combat.

I honestly think that if it was fun and unbroken, MMOG players would sort themselves out into the people who do like it and the people who don't. And the former group would outnumber the latter.

[Train Wreck]

Which is what I said.

Then you are right.

[Jimbo]

Ask DAoC how well their battlegrounds went over. Or ask them how well it turned out when they removed level differentials for PVP combat.

I honestly think that if it was fun and unbroken, MMOG players would sort themselves out into the people who do like it and the people who don't. And the former group would outnumber the latter.

I don't consider DAoC a true example of what I gave, in that they still had to level to 20 something, and they still have the grind to 50 which keeps many people out.  If they did open up a server where you were at level and rank cap and got free gear, then it would be a diffrent story, but I don't remember them doing anything like that...  I just remember that when DAoC was on the verge of coming out, many of the people I played Tribes with, were talking about how DAoC was going to be better than the other MMOGS in that it won't be all about leveling and keeping people out, about 1 month later those same people were back on the server bitchin that it had turned into another EQ.

[Calantus]

Depending on how old your server is, that alliance PVP guild team could be really craptacular. Once the first generation of PVPers hit the ranks they want you start to see the quality of PVPers take a rapid decline. On my old server all the best players long since hit their desired rank or gave up, those who are left are those who weren't good enough to make the top teams before, never had to play against the A-teams of the past, or just PVP casually. WoW PVP has an inbuilt stopping point. There is NO reason to PVP hardcore once you have hit your desired rank. PUG PVP is really, really shitty and it is murder trying to lower yourself to that when you've experienced a great steamroll team.

Steamroll PVP groups... get boring. REAL boring. The time itself is not necessarily the problem, it's the fact that you roll stupid pug after stupid pug. The steamrollers either 5-cap for a 5-6 minute game, or it drags out to a 10-15 minute game if they decide to send almost their entire force to one node and camp it (used to be you were able to AoE down the node, but now they spread out, fuckers... but they'll do anything to get some honor/rep since their ques are 1/2 hour+). In WSG it is ALWAYS a 3/0  win and it almost never goes longer than 10 minutes. Where's the fun in that? Oh, and it's hard to get into the PVP groups unless you can do it a lot, you have to pay dues to those who can put in enough time to get you to the higher ranks, so you wont be getting a spot over anyone who is highly ranked. So if you're going casual you can forget being in an organized group unless your guild is going for shits and giggles.

Once you get your gear... why would you care where you stand? Bragging rights? Pfff, rank is a matter of time first, skill a far second (well for nowon my server it is actually pretty skillful because you HAVE to get into a steamroll group and you don't get invited back if you suck... for now), and as such is pretty pathetic for bragging about. PVP guild go PVE, hemorage their best players over time, or just DIE because there's nothing to do. Only guilds that tend to PVP after a while are the PVE guilds just dicking about having some fun in BGs after a raid or on a freeday. Hell, on my old guild they don't even do that because there is no worthwhile competition, so only the B-Grade PVE guilds do it.

Until there are proper ranking inplace for teams there is simply no reason for teams to stay together in the long-term, so everyone running around are just the scrubs too unskilled to be jaded yet, or are late-bloomers who missed the hey-day. So yeah... saying someone is the top guild on your server currently doesn't always mean anything much at all.

As far as gear... it matters for winning skirmishes. Since AB is mostly concentration of forces, mobilisation of people, and reacting appropriately to situations on the meta scale it plays less of a part. If for example you send 4 people to mine and there are 3 guards, whether you can take that node before reinforcements sweep you away depends very much on the gear of the people in question. If you're facing 3 rank 12-14 players you can generally forget it unless you got a LOT of dps gear (or are overloaded on CC) because the suckers just aren't gonna die fast enough. Now of course if you had sent 7 players instead, or the mine group was just a diversion that's not gonna change how that fight impacts on the game. If you needed mine at that moment to win, you just lost the game because of gear. It's rare that it happens though.


PS: I generalise many times in the above post.

[Hoax]

Calantus just owned the stupid WoW BG-system, good for you man too bad it doesn't drop any phat lewtz.

[Jayce]

There is NO reason to PVP hardcore once you have hit your desired rank.

I disagree in so many ways with this post, but for lack of time I'll just address this one.

How about... hmmm... because you like to PvP?  This is the reason most people play a given game - because they enjoy it, ne c'est pas?

I would like to see a persistent team system though.

[Ironwood]

He said HARDCORE.  I do not think it means what you think it means.

He's completely right, you know.

[HaemishM]

Hardcore people don't do what they do because they enjoy it. They do what they do because they secretly hate themselves, feel guilty for touching themselves at night when they think no one is watching, and think that pwning someone/something will make their pitiful self-loating a little less if only for a moment.

[Ironwood]

Again, I disagree;  if you're serious.

Ownzing people in WoW is pointless too.  They don't lose anything.  It's self-defeating.

Once you put in enough time investment for your purple razor of peen-shaving, you're done.

Done.

[Calantus]

To clarify my above point for those who don't see where I'm coming from, the way I see it there are only 4 reasons to PVP:

1) For what it can get you. In UO this was phat lewt in the form of whatever the player was carrying. In DAOC this was realm points (and whatever they gave you, I never played it much). In WoW it is honor and the rewards that go with it. Problem with this of course is that once you get what you want the incentive is gone. WoW had it right initially with having to maintain rank to keep items (on the high end at least), but messed up by making the top ranks too hard to maintain, so gutted the system.

2) Bragging rights. For this to have any effect it has to mean something. The highest ranked teams on guildwars have worthwhile bragging rights for instance because their ranks are a factor of win/loss. In WoW, ranking is a factor of time. There's nothing to gloat about there. It's also such a large factor of time that it's not possible to maintain by anyone even remotely sane.

3) To hurt others. This is what griefers get off on. Incurring XP debt, destroying/taking their gear, disrupting their activities, etc are all ways in which this can happen. When you steamroll a PUG in WoW you don't really hurt them. They just get into another game afterwards and even get a mark for their trouble, a fast mark at that (it's actually faster to lose to a really good steamroll group 3 times than it is to win the average PUG match in AB, WSG you are almost definately better off losing, PUG matches can last hour+ if people wanna be dicks).

4) Fun. You just happen you enjoy PVP for its own sake and so you do it. Thing is, very few people can play hardcore purely for fun (also note that people can have fun competing or achieving, it's just a different type of fun than the often toted pure fun). The person who plays for fun will go a couple hours here and there. After that point any activity is going to start becoming more tedius and less fun the more you do it. People are also less likely to do this when there are other activities that could be earning them something.


Basically it's the achiever/competitor/griefer mentalities along with people who are just having fun doing what they are doing and don't need another reason to get enjoyment out of it. In WoWl 1) is limited in how long it can hold, 2) is empty, 3) is non-existant, and 4) doesn't make for hardcore PVP. So for hardcore PVP the only thing keeping people there is 1), and once that is gone there's nothing.

[MrHat]

Ranked teams can't occur until they implement cross-server BG's.  There simply isn't enough to choose from other than that.

[Nija]

Gear and teamwork both matter. I've not played in a long time, but here's a shot from my very last time in the battlegrounds. Dated 7/23/05, so that was even before the Hunter revamp. That was about a 1 hour AV vs the Alliance A team (all 40 of them on teamspeak at once) on Archimonde. They had the teamwork, but we had the gear I think. I'm not even sure who won. I ran out of ammo.

[Merusk]

AV is a bad PvP metric, and one of the worst maps.  If you want to win, you charge fast and treat it like a PvE raid rather than fucking with all the extras.  AV games on my server last MAYBE 1 1/2 hours unless the Alliance completly turtles and the Horde has more PUGs than Horde-team PvPers. 

The winning strat in AV is: Charge flag to draw away NPCs, fear bomb to drive off PCs, challenge flag, kill PCs then NPCs. Leave 3-4 people to guard until you cap and move the raid to the next GY. 

[Train Wreck]

Gear and teamwork both matter. I've not played in a long time, but here's a shot from my very last time in the battlegrounds. Dated 7/23/05, so that was even before the Hunter revamp. That was about a 1 hour AV vs the Alliance A team (all 40 of them on teamspeak at once) on Archimonde. They had the teamwork, but we had the gear I think. I'm not even sure who won. I ran out of ammo.

They were probably hit by their very first zerg and didn't know how to respond to it -- especially if they were the A Team -- because they are usually accustomed to dictating the entire pace of the battle (the losing side tends to spend too much time defending).  Equipment is one of the variables, but the situation as you describe it sounds like they got totally blindsided.

[cevik]

They were probably hit by their very first zerg and didn't know how to respond to it -- especially if they were the A Team -- because they are usually accustomed to dictating the entire pace of the battle (the losing side tends to spend too much time defending).  Equipment is one of the variables, but the situation as you describe it sounds like they got totally blindsided.

So basically it boils down to exactly what I said.  Equipment doesn't matter as much as the whiners say.

[HaemishM]

They were probably hit by their very first zerg and didn't know how to respond to it -- especially if they were the A Team -- because they are usually accustomed to dictating the entire pace of the battle (the losing side tends to spend too much time defending).  Equipment is one of the variables, but the situation as you describe it sounds like they got totally blindsided.

So basically it boils down to exactly what I said.  Equipment doesn't matter as much as the whiners say.

Most things rarely matter as much as the whiners say.

[Typhon]

I never really cared about uber loot until I recently saw this gnome with a crown of fire.  It looked darn cool.  made me a bit sad that I'd never have one.


Edit: "so" has a really different meaning then "saw"

[Rasix]

I never really cared about uber loot until I recently so this gnome with a crown of fire.  It looked darn cool.  made me a bit sad that I'd never have one.

http://www.thottbot.com/?i=37908

I just got one of those on Monday.  Hooray for minimum bid Rag loot (heh, it actually went to rot)! Slowly building my melee DPS gear... too bad I didn't feel like blowing 2 weeks worth of raid DKP on Nef's chain belt, I'd be one step closer to being a true horde side critadin.