Meanwhile back at Turbine HQ...

[Shockeye]

I have and always will advocate for the removal of any official game forums that are not designed for:

-Bug reports
-Technical issues
-Server boards (complete with guild recruitment sub-board)

Dont host general boards, dont host dev boards and certainly dont host class/race boards.

Let that shit happen on someone else's dime in someone else's playground.  Eventually fansites where the bullshit is pre-filtered will often rise up, because mods on fansites will not tolerate "DEV READ THIS" type shit for very long.

DO NOT EVER post on fansites.  Except f13, and then only in this general sort of way.  Don't ever address some online petition style bullshit, even if you think that the players are 100% right.  The second they get the idea you are listening and that if they petition something and put enough pages on it it deserves to be changed you are screwed.  Then the fucking MMO special interest groups go to work for their pet class/race/item/dungeon and your so swamped in useless BLUE READ THIS style shit that it makes my eyes bleed.

If the dev team isn't smart enough to be able to figure out what is fun and what isn't, then the game is going to suck.  Sure players can point you in the right direction or reveal flaws (ways to bug mob AI, spells with incorrect damage modifiers etc) that you may have missed.  But the players aren't going to tell you how to balance the game, and devs who try to get that sort of info from them just end up breaking the game even more.

If you read the SWG thread and dont see that those poor idiots (or as I have called them in the past diluted fools heh) who are wishing that the SWG devs had just listened to them, rolled the game back to build 12xyz and done blahblahblah are idiots.  Well I just dont know what to say.

[Endie]

Edited out now the worst of Monday morning is past.

[schild]

I don't even understand what this argument is about.

[Signe]

What argument?  No way I missed an argument!

[Stephen Zepp]

In 100% of cases, artists should be able to come to work drunk.

How many artists do you know? That should be high, not drunk. It's the marketing, sales, and management folk that come in drunk. Still drunk.

I can neither confirm nor deny this comment officially.

But oh my god did I start laughing out loud...

[HaemishM]

So I was watching the BSG finale on TIVO last night and while fast-forwarding through commercials, I caught a glimpse of a DDO logo. I stopped, rewound and watched the entire DDO TV commercial.

Hey Cal, would it be possible for me to cockslap anyone involved in the making of that commercial? Please? Because I really want to. Hard. A lot.

You know what's wrong with it? For someone who is uninformed like myself, that things looks great. Only there's not one single solitary second of IN-GAME footage in the whole 30 seconds of that spot. It's all pre-rendered cinematic stuff which has fuckall to do with the actual game. It would be better served advertising a Final Fantasy game than DDO. I mean, not even 5 seconds of in-game footage could be spared for this?

It's disingenuous.

[shiznitz]

The word is ingenious.

[Trippy]

You know what's wrong with it? For someone who is uninformed like myself, that things looks great. Only there's not one single solitary second of IN-GAME footage in the whole 30 seconds of that spot. It's all pre-rendered cinematic stuff which has fuckall to do with the actual game. It would be better served advertising a Final Fantasy game than DDO. I mean, not even 5 seconds of in-game footage could be spared for this?

I'm sure 5 seconds could've been spared but then would Atari really want to do that? I mean, people might think there was something wrong with the color controls on their TVs. And more seriously would the game really look all that good squished down to 640 x 480 resolution? Plus they left out the dragon out of the game (coming soon!).

[Malathor]

So I was watching the BSG finale on TIVO last night and while fast-forwarding through commercials, I caught a glimpse of a DDO logo. I stopped, rewound and watched the entire DDO TV commercial.

Hey Cal, would it be possible for me to cockslap anyone involved in the making of that commercial? Please? Because I really want to. Hard. A lot.

You know what's wrong with it? For someone who is uninformed like myself, that things looks great. Only there's not one single solitary second of IN-GAME footage in the whole 30 seconds of that spot. It's all pre-rendered cinematic stuff which has fuckall to do with the actual game. It would be better served advertising a Final Fantasy game than DDO. I mean, not even 5 seconds of in-game footage could be spared for this?

It's disingenuous.

Heh, one of the most persistant of AC2 fanboi myths was that if only Turbine had advertised people would have flocked to the game. If this campaign doesn't work any better than SWG NGE's huge TV ad campaign flop (and I don't think it will) I think we'll be able to dismiss the idea of TV ads for MMORPGs entirely. Word of mouth is all that matters people.

[Numtini]

*laughs* AC2 was heavily heavily advertised. They did an incredibly good job and pre-release publicity and placing stories. It was a game that everyone was talking about. They had full pages in all the magazines.

Then they managed to put the beta in everyone's hands to show us all how much fun the game was.

And that was the end of that.

[cevik]

Heh, one of the most persistant of AC2 fanboi myths was that if only Turbine had advertised people would have flocked to the game. If this campaign doesn't work any better than SWG NGE's huge TV ad campaign flop (and I don't think it will) I think we'll be able to dismiss the idea of TV ads for MMORPGs entirely. Word of mouth is all that matters people.

AC2 would have done better if it had been in any way entertaining at all.

[Soukyan]

And it appears that I still hold the award for being the only member here who even remotely enjoyed playing AC2. Something must be wired wrong...

[Trippy]

AC2 would have done better if it had been in any way entertaining at all.

The music instruments were fun.

[cevik]

And it appears that I still hold the award for being the only member here who even remotely enjoyed playing AC2. Something must be wired wrong...

The only active member.

IIRC, SirBruce LOVED AC2.  You should cleanse yourself now.

[Soukyan]

And it appears that I still hold the award for being the only member here who even remotely enjoyed playing AC2. Something must be wired wrong...

The only active member.

IIRC, SirBruce LOVED AC2.  You should cleanse yourself now.

Damn you... damn you to hell.

[Lantyssa]

You know what's wrong with it? For someone who is uninformed like myself, that things looks great. Only there's not one single solitary second of IN-GAME footage in the whole 30 seconds of that spot. It's all pre-rendered cinematic stuff which has fuckall to do with the actual game. It would be better served advertising a Final Fantasy game than DDO. I mean, not even 5 seconds of in-game footage could be spared for this?

There was a game in Britain that got slapped by truth-in-advertising laws for the same thing recently.  I thought I saw it on the boards here, maybe on Game Politics, but my memory is failing me.

[Jamiko]

And it appears that I still hold the award for being the only member here who even remotely enjoyed playing AC2. Something must be wired wrong...

I was there from beginning to the end (I won a free "lifetime" account). It gave me a unique perspective on the lifespan of the game. I did have a lot of fun in AC2, but I attribute it to the people I played with. A good group of people will make a shitty game seem fun.

[Stormwaltz]

There was a game in Britain that got slapped by truth-in-advertising laws for the same thing recently.  I thought I saw it on the boards here, maybe on Game Politics, but my memory is failing me.

It was Call of Duty 2.

[Arthur_Parker]

There was a game in Britain that got slapped by truth-in-advertising laws for the same thing recently.  I thought I saw it on the boards here, maybe on Game Politics, but my memory is failing me.

Call of Duty 2

A complaint has been upheld by the UK Advertising Standards Authority in regards to the television advertisements created for Call of Duty 2. The adverts were deemed misleading as they displayed pre-rendered images rather than actual in-game footage. Due to this, the ads can never be shown again on UK television.

In response to this Activision stated that "using pre-rendered images rather than in game footage is common practice nowadays". If the ruling is completed successfully it could mean that countless more cases are opened up regarding misleading adverts and could send shockwaves through the games industry.

The two Activision games were Call of Duty 2 and Call of Duty: Big Red One, but this is just the beginning.

Surprisingly the UK Advertising Standards Authority are very effective at making UK adverts have a basis in truth.  The rest of the country might be going to hell but our adverts are still lagging behind.

[Lantyssa]

That was it.  Thank you.

[WindupAtheist]

Guy I know who was in the DDO beta said he hit max level in two days.  Yeah, this game is DOA.

[Venkman]

If people hit max level in DDO, the game is done. But for the most part, for the most people, the same is the case for WoW or EQ2, or any other Diku spinoff because the average person does not spend 2-4 hours a night raiding for uber gear just so they can get more efficient at raiding for uber gear.

DDO is affected by this the most, but the rule has always been there: the endgame is so different from the not_endgame, rushing to get there is generally a Fedex to disappointment.

There was a game in Britain that got slapped by truth-in-advertising laws for the same thing recently.  I thought I saw it on the boards here, maybe on Game Politics, but my memory is failing me.

You know what the worst part of this whole thing is? DDO doesn't really look that bad. Oh, it can get bland and depressing in spots, sure. But a competent video editor could string together more than enough good looking footage from the game. There's some pretty diverse environments, and of course, stylized weapon swings and spells to choose from. It would take some time to capture just the right shots, but it would still be far less time to do that than to create brand new CGI.

At the same time, I saw SWG's commercials. What, were they using a Mac with VirtualPC running SWG to capturethat footage?! Shit, I captured better movies on my first SWG computer, built like six years ago. If you're going to capture footage for use in a TV spot, use a better freakin' computer!

[WindupAtheist]

Yeah, but if Bob Catass can ding max in two days, how long is it going to take Joe Casual?  A week?  Two weeks?  A month?  We can hash the usual MMO endgame dynamics all we like, but the bottom line is there doesn't seem to be enough damn content, period.

[Venkman]

That's why I wonder about the use of the term "Raids" in DDO's upcoming content patch.

[Nija]

That's why I wonder about the use of the term "Raids" in DDO's upcoming content patch.

A "raid" in DDO terms is equal to the number of players Diablo2 could support.

[Endie]

Yeah, but if Bob Catass can ding max in two days, how long is it going to take Joe Casual?  A week?  Two weeks?  A month?

With the current difficulty of getting a pick-up group together for adventures above level 3 on the Euro servers? I reckon they've got one of the longest-lived games on the market...

[5150]

Newsflash: Very few MMOG players are roleplayers.

Which IMO is the root of 99.9% of MMOGRPG problems

[dEOS]

And it appears that I still hold the award for being the only member here who even remotely enjoyed playing AC2. Something must be wired wrong...

Naaah.

I enjoyed it as well.

Playing a zerker was ZOMG whirling swords of doom.
Playing a sage ZOMG healer on the edge.

I enjoyed AC2 group combat very much and quests were original.
You are not alone.

[sarius]

Newsflash: Very few MMOG players are roleplayers.

Which IMO is the root of 99.9% of MMOGRPG developers problems.

Fixed for you, mate.

[HaemishM]

No, the players are as much the problem as the developers. We keep buying the same shit that actively discourages roleplaying and the developers see us buying it so they keep making it. It's a vicious cycle.

We are enablers.

[sarius]

No, the players are as much the problem as the developers. We keep buying the same shit that actively discourages roleplaying and the developers see us buying it so they keep making it. It's a vicious cycle.

We are enablers.

Guess it's all your point of view.   I was there in the 70's playing everything from initial RPGs to the height of Dave Hargrave's munchkin-land of Arduin.  Hell, I've still got every Mayfair, Judges Guild, and the like supplement on the shelf.  Not a goddamn one of them makes anything 'fun' in the current genre.  I just think too much time is spent on the idea of roleplaying rather than just having fun in a game. 

Maybe I'm just stuck in-between 'I don't give a shit if you're a RPer' land and being pissed off with the vacant promises we keep seeing from game companies lately.

[5150]

I just think too much time is spent on the idea of roleplaying rather than just having fun in a game. 

I'm really surprised to see this comment because, personally I don't see much evidence of this outside of SWG (and that was recently sacrificed on the altar of NGE to appease the continuity breaking Jedi catasses)

Anarchy Online was an initially promising RPG MMO, lots of social stuff and a cool backstory (which I'll be the first to say 'does not an RPG make' but you gotta have the tools) but once the catasses got into the beta all that went out the window and the level treadmill was added (which is the majority of the game content for most people I'd wager)

Neocron had a great backstory as well but its PvP bias means the playerbase is populated by those least likely to (and least sympathetic to) RP - the closest they get over there is 'I'm RPing a psycho killer'

I saw no evidence of effort spent on enabling RP in either EQ1+2, CoH, MXO or DAoC all of which are the classic examples of the level treadmill (bash, ding, gratz rinse repeat)

[sarius]

Neocron had a great backstory as well but its PvP bias means the playerbase is populated by those least likely to (and least sympathetic to) RP - the closest they get over there is 'I'm RPing a psycho killer'

I saw no evidence of effort spent on enabling RP in either EQ1+2, CoH, MXO or DAoC all of which are the classic examples of the level treadmill (bash, ding, gratz rinse repeat)

Please, come see some of these whack jobs on the PVP servers for EQ2.  Even the PVE servers are filled with idiots complaining that my talking to someone 'out of character' is ruining their game.

[Venkman]

Some RPers wouldn't be happy in anything less than a fascist environment they invented and govern. They are not worth pandering to unless you only want a game of 1. This is because there is no agreed-upon rule for RPing. Someone is RPing if they don't piss me off, and if they do, they are the enemy. It's just that stupid. And it relates to group size. You could maybe get 12 people to agree on actual methods of RP, 25 to agree to most of them, maybe 50 to agree to enough. But by 80 or so, forget it.

So the developers are left with RP elements. Even aside from sword swinging and flower picking, we all RP by virtue of launching these games. We're playing a role within them. How we speak or what name we choose for ourselves is part of that choice. If we want to be an asshole with a universally stupid name, then that's the role we chose.

And when anyone who disagrees with that last sentence does differently from anyone else who disagrees with it, my point is proven.

Forget trying to make everyone play act. This ain't Broadway. Just keep trying to get them to not fuck up the mechanical parts of the experience.

[WindupAtheist]

There's a fairly large and active RP community on Europa in UO.  I made Lando Calrissian and started walking around Trinsic, asking for directions to the spaceport.