Meanwhile back at Turbine HQ...

[HaemishM]

And you criticise the writing style of the OQP?  Yes, he's a bad writer, but speaking as a developer myself, there is not always - or even often - a great congruence between the set of good writers and the set of good devs.  So all you whiny types who say "we want more inside knowledge from the devs [we secretly worship]" and then get all Magnolia Fan when it turns out they write better code than English will get exactly what you deserve: disdain and less feedback.

Uhhh, fuck you very much?

He's not a coder, at least not that I can tell. He's the PR guy. Or he is, at the very least, someone who is charged with putting hype out for the game. The motherfucker should be able to write above the level of Harry Potter/Gay Hobbit Slash Fanfic. I don't give a fuck if he codes the digital equivalent of the Neverending Machine, his output on that story was awful. Turbine should have had Callandryll write it.

[Arthur_Parker]

Darniaq, I would respond with some made up MEO patch notes, expanded in a similar manner to fill 3 sides of A4, but I'm lazy and it wouldn't be funny enough for the effort it would take on my part.   So I'll just admit defeat now, yup maybe Roleplayers loved it.

[HaemishM]

Newsflash: Very few MMOG players are roleplayers.

[waylander]

Its good to see they learned something from AC1. I resubbed 5 times from 1999 to 2005. I played continuously from 1999-2001.  I liked the quests they put in, but after Jessica Mulligan started over there I began to dislike AC. I would resub periodcally to see what was new, and every time AC 1 became more and more group dependent with the high end content.  To me AC1 was about being able to slog through hordes of mobs alone OR with friends. It just got to a point to where you couldn't do that, and the player economy was too focused around singularity keys or expensive platnium scarabs. Either way, after my initial 2 year subscription I don't think I ever stayed more than a month every time I resubbed because of the forced group requirement for quests introduced with monthly patches (to get the good stuff anyway).

Hopefully the solo person can get some decent rewards that are competitive with group quest rewards. They don't have to be quite as uber of course, but worth getting.

[HRose]

This is a problem with veteran hardcore MMOGers, and some general gamers, in my opinion. Being in the genre so long, some adopt this "I want my information now, and brief!" mindset that is at odds with one of the core tenets of the genre: immersion. It's also at odds with the realities of truly complex game design, but that's an aside.

More than informations we want to hear answers to some crucial points we already know.

That article is excessively long and still vague. It's not just the length of it, it's that it dodges the whole point and says nothing.

[Endie]

And you criticise the writing style of the OQP?  Yes, he's a bad writer, but speaking as a developer myself, there is not always - or even often - a great congruence between the set of good writers and the set of good devs.  So all you whiny types who say "we want more inside knowledge from the devs [we secretly worship]" and then get all Magnolia Fan when it turns out they write better code than English will get exactly what you deserve: disdain and less feedback.

Uhhh, fuck you very much?

Don't mind if I do, ta.

He's not a coder, at least not that I can tell. He's the PR guy. Or he is, at the very least, someone who is charged with putting hype out for the game. The motherfucker should be able to write above the level of Harry Potter/Gay Hobbit Slash Fanfic. I don't give a fuck if he codes the digital equivalent of the Neverending Machine, his output on that story was awful. Turbine should have had Callandryll write it.

If I say "fuck" six times in this paragraph will it make me sound like I'm down with the kids, too?  I didn't say he was a "coder".  Such paeans, you are right, I should sing only to the truly worthy.  But you know perfectly well that red names/devs are loosely used terms, largely independent of role.  Scott J., for instance, is not a coder - he's a db monkey   - but dev he is, all the same.

And okay, I wouldn't be proud of that article myself.  I certainly would have benefited from some editing.  But it doesn't matter.  He spoke about things that were, in themselves, interesting.  He imparted information, even if not, as Darniaq says, in the terse nature some people prefer.  And it didn't really need half a dozen "wtf nub lrn2rite" posts as the initial responses.  Nobody is ever going to lose Valar Points with the MEO boards by adopting a latinate style and sticking his verbs near the ends of his sentences.

If it matters, I too have some uncomfortable feelings about the likely outcome for this game.  But the last guy to say that and get flamed had ten posts, and I only have two, so I know to take my cap off while i say it.  And unlike HR "you can force Warhammer Online down my cold, blood-filled throat" Rose, I really want it succeed.

[Venkman]

Newsflash: Very few MMOG players are roleplayers.

Yet who is LoTRO targeting? Certainly not traditional MMOG players. Turbine, like just about anyone in the world, is incompatible of delivering the game they obviously already like (WoW). So they have to deliver for a different audience. That audience may include WoW players, but it's no more a foregone conclusion than Eve's appeal to them either.

That article is excessively long and still vague. It's not just the length of it, it's that it dodges the whole point and says nothing

Because you're looking for stuff that it wasn't intended to include. Remember where it was posted. This wasn't a press release to Blues News or Slashdot.

Why does every bit of information about a game have to be written for us? Shit, if I were designing an MMO, the very last group I'd design it for would be, well, me :)

[HRose]

Scott J., for instance, is not a coder - he's a db monkey

You could have used a better example since this is wrong. I believe Lum did quite a bit of work with the server-side programming in DAoC. Not just on the DB.

[sarius]

Newsflash: Very few MMOG players are roleplayers.

Damn straight.  Roleplayers really make the game more stress/less fun, IMO.

Cal, it's real simple. You listen to the people who can put together cogent posts and you ignore the real fucking idiots.

-snip-
Even if you know your community will resist a change, if you as the developer truly believe it is what is best for the game, then you have an obligation to explain the change to the community as early as possible and try to at the very least, help them understand the change even if they don't immediately embrace it. Waiting until the last minute to explain something only delays "teh hate" and in most cases makes it worse.

Okay, I tried to search the old SWG forums on some of the crafter archives.  Unfortunately, they've turned off search capabilities for those archives and I'm not going to wade through a few hundred thousand posts to pull the exact one.  

Having said that, I seem to remember you introducing yourself to us, and then posting in the correspondence board to please bring to your attention all of the current 'issues' for SWG crafters at two distinct points in time.  The crafting communities (yet again) spent over a month playing reporting agent in response (both times), the information was submitted, and we never ever heard another thing from you in response.  Nada, nothing, not one thing.

Here's a nice one:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=dev_archive&message.id=106458#M106458

How many of these things got accomplished and validated by the community at all?  Nothing I saw.  Communication pretty much disappeared after Nov 2005.  Developers chat?  More fluff questions that don't even get answered.  Would you buy anything in the real world if someone answered, "we're thinking about it" to any thing you ask about the product in any public forum?  Yet, computer games are somehow suppose to be immune to standards, promises, customer loyalty, QA, etc.  We both know I'm not referring to some l33t speak crap.  There were hundreds of well thought out premises, and specifically formal feedback mechanisms that were never utilized past the point of putting off SWG players another month or two with busy work.

OTOH, I was impressed by this thread:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=dev_archive&message.id=103430#M103430

You did a great job there.  I just wish we had received feedback of this caliber the other thousand times it was asked for and invited according to the standards of communication that the dev team for SWG had set up.

Oh, another one that's still available for search:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=dev_archive&message.id=102152#M102152

Out of the blue you answered a question that was driving everyone nuts.  But, was this answered anywhere in the crafting communities where it was being asked, daily?  Nope.

Edit: lost a quote in the post.

[HaemishM]

I would like the information presented, regardless of the audience or the placement, to be presented in a manner that was well-written, cogent and doesn't fuck about with overwrought style. The article seemed to care more about being clever with his words than actually giving any sort of information. That's great if you are writing lore hype, not so much if you are actually trying to explain gameplay elements. When your article's purpose is to answer a simple question (Will there be soloing), you shouldn't make it more complicated than a Microsoft manual to understand. It was painful to read, and for no good reason.

You can target LOTR fans, or roleplayers without sounding like bad ren faire dress up.

I don't consider pure PR guys devs. That's just me though. I don't consider Sanya at Mythic a dev, and I actually like her. :)

I wouldn't mind LOTR succeeding, but I want it to be a good game, whether it stays true to the license or not. Frankly, nothing I've seen has made me think that in anyway. And pandering to Tolkien geeks is just as bad as pandering to Star Wars geeks, in that all of them should realize their literary/movie gods should be sacrificed to the altar of good gameplay first.

[Soln]

And you criticise the writing style of the OQP?  Yes, he's a bad writer, but speaking as a developer myself, there is not always - or even often - a great congruence between the set of good writers and the set of good devs. 

If you were a developer and not a CSR like this guy -- if you were a technical resource writing, testing or deploying code -- you would not impressed by this.  Why?  Because it doesn't state anything clearly enough to give players good expectations from day 0 of the game.  Also (reality check) it's the man's job to write well for a player audience.  He's a CSR/marketing rep.

[Endie]

Scott J., for instance, is not a coder - he's a db monkey

You could have used a better example since this is wrong. I believe Lum did quite a bit of work with the server-side programming in DAoC. Not just on the DB.

Pedant.

Yes, and he may be a real, fully-fledged, not-just-SQL code monkey now he's taken the Korean Yen, or Yu, or whatever they use.  Note my light-hearted tone and self-effacing use of iconry.  Stavo scherzando, Abalieno.

[Endie]

If you were a developer and not a CSR like this guy -- if you were a technical resource writing, testing or deploying code -- you would not impressed by this.  Why?  Because it doesn't state anything clearly enough to give players good expectations from day 0 of the game.  Also (reality check) it's the man's job to write well for a player audience.  He's a CSR/marketing rep.

I'm not a CSR, Soln.  I code. Not games, mind, although an area with some striking similarities: complex financial modelling and derivatives trading.  Some C++, some other stuff.

And I thought I was pretty clear on not being impressed by what he wrote.  I just didn't mind, because it imparted information.

[HaemishM]

because it imparted information.

Through the filter of Tolkein's anus.

[Arthur_Parker]

I'm not a CSR, Soln.  I code. Not games, mind, although an area with some striking similarities: complex financial modelling and derivatives trading.  Some C++, some other stuff.

And I thought I was pretty clear on not being impressed by what he wrote.  I just didn't mind, because it imparted information.

If you don't code/design/pr games you are not a developer in the sense it's meant here and in most other game discussion forums.  By your defination, I'm a dev and that's really silly.

Also the currency in Korea is the Won.

[Endie]

If you don't code/design/pr games you are not a developer in the sense it's meant here and in most other game discussion forums.  By your defination, I'm a dev and that's really silly.

I know.  Thus my scrupulous declaration.  But it still doesn't mean I am CSR or like entity, as per the poster's suggestion.

Also the currency in Korea is the Won.

I know.  And let me tell you their tax model on downstream oil products is horrible.

[tazelbain]

I have been lurking through f13, waterthread and back to L:tM.

wow, I almost give a shit.

I just didn't mind, because it imparted information.

It did no such thing. We're going to have quests! Not news.

Anyway, thanks for the critism of my game idea.  It really stings coming from someone who doesn't understand what MMO means.

[Hoax]

Why the fuck are we even talking about MEO? (LTRO?) whatever it is called...

DDO SUCKED MONKEY BALLS.

This one will too, wake me up when somebody tries something where the gameworld was meant for the game, instead of this shoehorn existing lore into a fucking MMO style bullshit we keep getting served.

Yes I realize AA sucks, and WoW owns but I dont think that disproves my point.  AA sucks because the ui/gameplay/content is severely lacking the only reason it is interesting to me at all is it is a world with new lore.  WoW owns because the lore has always been designed for games, as such it is very flexible and forgiving as it has always involved a great deal of humour and foolishness and we're used to things not making 100% sense.

[Arthur_Parker]

I find Turbine interesting, DDO hasn't failed yet, make or break is the first patch.  I don't like DDO but given it's short feature list it was better than I expected.

[Soln]

If you were a developer and not a CSR like this guy -- if you were a technical resource writing, testing or deploying code -- you would not impressed by this.  Why?  Because it doesn't state anything clearly enough to give players good expectations from day 0 of the game.  Also (reality check) it's the man's job to write well for a player audience.  He's a CSR/marketing rep.

I'm not a CSR, Soln.  I code. Not games, mind, although an area with some striking similarities: complex financial modelling and derivatives trading.  Some C++, some other stuff.

And I thought I was pretty clear on not being impressed by what he wrote.  I just didn't mind, because it imparted information.

Was speaking hypothetically, not at you personally -- "if one was a developer and not a CSR... one would not like..." etc. 

[Toast]

Poor writing is not irritating to most people. It's hyperactive attempts at cleverness that bloat a message and bury meaningful content that get me.

I would like to nominate Endie for most aggravating new poster.

PS. I build complex financial models in Microsoft Excel with a dabbling of SQL. Where's my red name??

[schild]

In 99% of cases, programmers should shut the fuck up and program.

In 99% of cases, designers should shut the fuck up and let the programmers program.

In 99% of cases, writers should shut the fuck up and write backstory while the designers design.

In 100% of cases, artists should be able to come to work drunk.

[shiznitz]

In 99% of cases, customers should shut the fuck up as long as they are still paying.

[schild]

In 99% of cases, customers should shut the fuck up as long as they are still paying.

I don't know how I could leave out that one.

[cevik]

I would like to nominate Endie for most aggravating new poster.

Before the accusations start flying, check the IPs, he's not me.  You can tell because he posted in a thread about a Turbine product.. something I'd never lower myself to doing.

[schild]

I don't find him infuriating. Just a little on the crazy side.

[cevik]

I don't find him infuriating. Just a little on the crazy side.

Does that mean you find me infuriating?

My work here is done.

[schild]

You're not infuriating either. Just a one trick pony.

[cevik]

You're not infuriating either. Just a one trick pony.

No shit, you're a bright one.. aren't ya?

[Heresiarch]

In 100% of cases, artists should be able to come to work drunk.

How many artists do you know? That should be high, not drunk. It's the marketing, sales, and management folk that come in drunk. Still drunk.

[schild]

In 100% of cases, artists should be able to come to work drunk.

How many artists do you know? That should be high, not drunk. It's the marketing, sales, and management folk that come in drunk. Still drunk.

I prefer the drunk artist to the high artist. That's nearly all I learned in 4 years of art school. :P

[Signe]

There are several professional artists in my immediate family.  They seem to prefer a healthy mix of both.

[Murgos]

Before the accusations start flying, check the IPs, he's not me.  You can tell because he posted in a thread about a Turbine product.. something I'd never lower myself to doing.

So, this isn't you either?  Or are you going to aim for the semantic crack that this thread isn't about a Turbine product so much as it's a thread about a Turbine employee?  :-D

[Stormwaltz]

In 99% of cases, writers should shut the fuck up and write backstory while the designers design.

Every writer at BioWare is both a writer and a designer. Hats are swapped depending on the stage of the project.

[schild]

In 99% of cases, writers should shut the fuck up and write backstory while the designers design.

Every writer at BioWare is both a writer and a designer. Hats are swapped depending on the stage of the project.

I'm referring more to MMOGs and quest writers.