Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?

[Venkman]

Too... many... jokes... gah!

[Velorath]

Hmmm, I'm pretty sure Sigil is still working on Marvel's MMO.

So we'll have three superhero MMOs on the market at some point?

Should be interesting how this plays out. I think both DC and Marvel will find there's not much demand for *another* superhero MMO, licensed characters or not.

I've seen people suggest this before, but really CoH only scratches the surface of what you can do with a superhero MMO.  It focuses purely on combat.  Obviously given the companies involved I'm not going to have high hopes for either the DC or Marvel game, but it has nothing to do with having CoH as competition.  Cryptic left out alter egos, which has possibilities for all sorts of mini games.  There's no crafting in CoH (Reed Richards, Iron Man, Forge, and Henry Pym would be fucked).  Characters don't have to worry about their reputations, and vigilantes don't have to worry about the cops.  There's a lot of shit CoH just doesn't do and I don't think it would be too hard to lure it's players away to another game since there isn't much investment in the characters.

[Llava]

I disagree with some of your statements and agree with others.

For one, if we're going down the mythological path of THE FUTUUUUUUUUURE for when these MMGs will be released, CoH may have the invention system live by then.

The alter ego thing I've considered and I'm not sure how I feel about it.  There are some heroes with alter egos and some without.  I can really imagine a system like that being made mandatory, and that's just not loyal to the genre.  I'd rather not have something I only kinda want then be forced to do something I really dislike.  That said, if done well,  it would be nice.

The CoH/V world is pretty black and white, yeah.  There's not really room for criminal heroes (like... I dunno, old school X-Force), or political villains (Lex Luthor).  This goes for pretty much any game (that I've played anyways) with player factions.  It's a weakness of the genre, really, not of the game.  The DC or Marvel games may overcome that, but I doubt it.  Oddly, freedom isn't something a lot of MMGs really offer.

I assume by "investment in the characters" you're referring to signature characters like Statesman or Lord Recluse, and not the player's own characters.  I have more investment in my characters than I have in any other MMG, but I can agree that Manticore isn't remotely as iconic as Batman.

But will CoH/V get killed by DCU or Marvel Online?  Well, not KILLED, just like other fantasy MMGs weren't KILLED by WoW.  But it's gonna hurt.  New subs will probably stop coming in, and it'll be a retention game from then on unless those two games are seriously, seriously fucked up or CoH/V adds so damn much between now and then that it's really not even a choice.

I don't see the latter happening, and even if the former does happen... well, SWG did pretty well for a while there.  "It's the license, stupid."

[Velorath]

I disagree with some of your statements and agree with others.

For one, if we're going down the mythological path of THE FUTUUUUUUUUURE for when these MMGs will be released, CoH may have the invention system live by then.

The alter ego thing I've considered and I'm not sure how I feel about it.  There are some heroes with alter egos and some without.  I can really imagine a system like that being made mandatory, and that's just not loyal to the genre.  I'd rather not have something I only kinda want then be forced to do something I really dislike.  That said, if done well,  it would be nice.

The CoH/V world is pretty black and white, yeah.  There's not really room for criminal heroes (like... I dunno, old school X-Force), or political villains (Lex Luthor).  This goes for pretty much any game (that I've played anyways) with player factions.  It's a weakness of the genre, really, not of the game.  The DC or Marvel games may overcome that, but I doubt it.  Oddly, freedom isn't something a lot of MMGs really offer.

I assume by "investment in the characters" you're referring to signature characters like Statesman or Lord Recluse, and not the player's own characters.  I have more investment in my characters than I have in any other MMG, but I can agree that Manticore isn't remotely as iconic as Batman.

The vast majority of characters have alter egos, even if some of their identities aren't particularly secret  At the very least, they have things they do outside of fighting crime.  Like any other aspect of any game, whether or not it works depends on implementation, and again I'm not expecting much out of SOE or Sigil.

As far as freedom being a limitation of the genre goes, I'm not really looking for freedom.  It's more like I'm looking for mini-games that relate to the kind of character I'm playing.  If I play a vigilante, have some mini-games involving getting away from cops.  If my hero suffers from bad press, have some mini-games that involve a little PR.  If there's one good thing I can say about FFXI, it's that it had missions with cut-scenes that advanced a story.  Throw some of that in too.

And no, by investment, I mean investment in your character.  It sounds like you're in the minority as far as that goes.  In CoH, the only time you invest in your character for the most part is leveling.  In other games, people have invested time into leveling their characters, crafting, getting loot, and in games like DAOC or WoW, PVP ranks or levels.  Players in CoH aren't going to feel like they're leaving a lot of work behind if the leave CoH, nor is there any sort of sense that if you left for several months that you'd have a lot to catch up on when you come back.  Basically, after leveling there's no carrot that keeps people playing so there's not much stopping people from unsubbing CoH to at least try out the DC game.

[Trippy]

And no, by investment, I mean investment in your character.  It sounds like you're in the minority as far as that goes.  In CoH, the only time you invest in your character for the most part is leveling.  In other games, people have invested time into leveling their characters, crafting, getting loot, and in games like DAOC or WoW, PVP ranks or levels.  Players in CoH aren't going to feel like they're leaving a lot of work behind if the leave CoH, nor is there any sort of sense that if you left for several months that you'd have a lot to catch up on when you come back.  Basically, after leveling there's no carrot that keeps people playing so there's not much stopping people from unsubbing CoH to at least try out the DC game.

Yup, the lack of a loot treadmill and an end game beyond killing Hamidon over and over again for massively nerfed enchancements are what keep CoH from being as "sticky" as some other MMORPGs.

[Llava]

... Huh.  That's one thing most CoH players consider its major advantage- no loot farming.  I agree with them.

I disagree with your assessment of investment.  To put it simply, that's not good gameplay.  Basically you're convincing your players that they're obligated to stay with their characters, because otherwise they will have wasted SO MUCH time they'd feel ridiculous.  That's how it was with DAoC- which is why I sold my account.  I didn't waste the time, I made money with it.

I'm invested in my CoH/V characters because they are far, far more individual than any other game has allowed.  In all my time playing CoH/V, I've only run into another character who looks a lot like the one I'm playing a single time.  And that was only "pretty close".  I get to write a backstory and build a whole concept, something I'm not really allowed to do in other MMGs.  I'm invested because I'm unique, not because it took me so long to get to where I am.

Hell.  That's why I quit WoW.  It took me a while to get to where I was, and I realized I didn't much care where I was going and didn't feel like putting more into the game, so I quit and never looked back.  That, coupled with the lack of individuality or uniqueness  among characters, and that was all it took for them to lose me.  Wasn't even a bad game- I just wasn't invested, despite being an Artisan Engineer, just over level 40 and nearly having enough cash to buy a horse.

[Velorath]

I didn't say anything about it being good gameplay.  Just that there isn't much that would keep people from unsubscribing to try out the DC or Marvel games.  I like CoH but it's a very easy game for people to walk away from, so when people wonder if there's room for 3 superhero MMO's I'd have to say yes, if they offer something CoH doesn't.  And there's a lot of things at the moment CoH doesn't offer.

[Llava]

I can agree with that.

And I'd even say that, unless these games are TOTALLY FUCKED  UP, CoH is in trouble simply because of the strength of the licensed property behind DCU and Marvel Online.  Like I said, it's almost a complete negation of new players for them and it'll be a retention game from then on- a game that you don't necessarily have to lose, but you can't ever win.

[Driakos]

Now Liefeld inspires great hatred in me, and Miller great love. Both have their own distinctive styles. Jim Lee just looks like a less puffy John Byrne.

There are not sufficient words to describe Liefeld's shittyness.  As an artist, or a writer.

[Jobu]

Now Liefeld inspires great hatred in me, and Miller great love. Both have their own distinctive styles. Jim Lee just looks like a less puffy John Byrne.

There are not sufficient words to describe Liefeld's shittyness.  As an artist, or a writer.

Shitty, shittering, shithead McShitster comes to mind.