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Author Topic: Hey Hrose, How goes WoW?  (Read 6169 times)
schild
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on: May 27, 2004, 12:10:27 PM

Errrhhh, Didn't you use Bittorrent to get the client?

Naughty Boy.
HaemishM
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Reply #1 on: May 27, 2004, 01:15:11 PM

Jesus Christ, that's taking copyright way too fucking far. What's next, every single router that passes along a packet and the ISP who owns that router gets hit with a fine too? That law sounds to me like it would criminilize even giving a friend the DVD copy you legally bought but didn't want to keep.

Riggswolfe
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Reply #2 on: May 27, 2004, 02:00:25 PM

Gotta do what you gotta do to stop pirates. They're raising prices and driving smaller companies out of business.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
HaemishM
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Reply #3 on: May 27, 2004, 02:14:39 PM

Bullshit. Piracy is a straw man used by rich men to ensure they stay rich instead of evolving with the technology. It is the first cry of dinosaurs who don't want to be turned into oil.

Not that piracy doesn't exist, but I know that the software, recording and movie industry ALL overestimate the actual damage piracy does to their business.

geldonyetich
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Reply #4 on: May 27, 2004, 02:26:53 PM

I don't know, I suspect that piracy more than anything else killed the Dreamcast.   It's a bigger issue than many people think.

Already there are cases here in the states where people who distributed a great deal of songs and whatnot via Kazaa have been dragged into court.   Granted, the backlash of these actions has been somewhat high.   However, I could see this kind of fasciest information hoarding becoming more common in the future as intellectual property becomes more and more important.

Big Gulp
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Reply #5 on: May 27, 2004, 03:30:38 PM

Quote from: HaemishM

Not that piracy doesn't exist, but I know that the software, recording and movie industry ALL overestimate the actual damage piracy does to their business.


Hell, some portions of the software industry are the 800 lb. gorillas in their segment pretty much solely because of piracy.  Windows and Photoshop anyone?

The Grateful Dead may have sucked, but they were the most successful band ever and they were ridiculously "pirate" (bootleg) friendly.

I personally think it's a tempest in a teacup.
naum
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Reply #6 on: May 27, 2004, 03:46:03 PM

Quote from: geldonyetich
I don't know, I suspect that piracy more than anything else killed the Dreamcast.   It's a bigger issue than many people think.


Bleh... I think Dreamcast went down because Sony PS games were much easier to "pirate" or perform "copyright infringement" upon...

"Should the batman kill Joker because it would save more lives?" is a fundamentally different question from "should the batman have a bunch of machineguns that go BATBATBATBATBAT because its totally cool?". ~Goumindong
Signe
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Muse.


Reply #7 on: May 27, 2004, 04:21:56 PM

What do you expect from a middle eastern Italian?

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #8 on: May 27, 2004, 04:58:47 PM

Quote from: Riggswolfe
Gotta do what you gotta do to stop pirates. They're raising prices and driving smaller companies out of business.


So you have never used a video recorder for a tv show, never taped something from the radio, never bought a dvd second hand, never downloaded a movie, never downloaded a music track and never installed a piece of software without the owners permission?

Oh you have?

So what exactly is it about being behind locked doors with hundreds of males that appeals?
Riggswolfe
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Reply #9 on: May 27, 2004, 07:11:46 PM

Quote from: HaemishM
Bullshit. Piracy is a straw man used by rich men to ensure they stay rich instead of evolving with the technology. It is the first cry of dinosaurs who don't want to be turned into oil.

Not that piracy doesn't exist, but I know that the software, recording and movie industry ALL overestimate the actual damage piracy does to their business.


Piracy doesn't hurt the big companies all that bad. All they do is pass the price onto the consumer, that's you and I. It does hurt the artists though because they lose out on royalties and such.

Quote
So you have never used a video recorder for a tv show, never taped something from the radio, never bought a dvd second hand, never downloaded a movie, never downloaded a music track and never installed a piece of software without the owners permission?


Taping a TV  or radio show or buying a previewed DvD is not piracy.

I downloaded one movie. I've never downloaded music and I have installed pirated software before. I never claimed I was an innocent. I just said that piracy is wrong. It is.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Flashman
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Reply #10 on: May 27, 2004, 08:11:32 PM

The real pirates are the ones who own CD copying factories, mainly in SE Asia.

Not some guy downloading songs off Kazaa.


But one is a lot easier to get to than the other.
geldonyetich
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Reply #11 on: May 28, 2004, 12:37:47 AM

I wonder how long until they start ordering F-16 firebombings of pirate factories like they do some Columbian drug cartels.

Hanzii
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Reply #12 on: May 28, 2004, 12:55:53 AM

What Haemish said.

There's no proper research in support of the claim that piracy is in any way shape or form hurting music and movie sales, just the commonly held belief that "it must do... it makes sense."

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Arthur_Parker
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Reply #13 on: May 28, 2004, 01:12:49 AM

Quote from: Riggswolfe

Taping a TV  or radio show or buying a previewed DvD is not piracy.


You think?  What I could find on US law below, UK law is more tricky and tighter I believe, though the European Union is involved and trying to free things up a bit.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html

Quote
Sec. 107. - Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include -

(1)

the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2)

the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3)

the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4)

the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors


http://www.sunyacc.edu/page1316

Quote
ACC recognizes at least 3 legal kinds of video copyright usage:
 
1. HOME USE - The law provides for the rental, purchase, or off-air taping of programs for home use.  Home use constitutes viewing within private homes by related family members. Home "off-air" taping can be done for "time shifting" purposes for subsequent home viewing followed by erasure.
Alluvian
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Reply #14 on: May 28, 2004, 07:09:31 AM

Yup.  So if you taped something to watch it later and then don't erase the tape immediately after viewing it, you are already in a grey/illegal area involving copyright.  The laws are unbelievably fucking draconian.  They are not enforced, but once people like the RIAA start beating that enforcement drum it is a remarkably fucking slippery slope.

The only games I pirate are games that I would not buy on my own.  Nobody is losing a penny in those cases.  Some of those games I MAY have bought if they dropped below $10 in a bargain bin.  But that is pretty damn rare these days.  And this would again just be money to my local game dealer who would be LOSING money on that item (and just trying to recoup SOME of the original purchase cost).

Sometimes I buy a game I pirated first because I actually liked it.  Like Max Payne.  Or Prince of Persia Sands of time.  Then I talk about these games in a positive light on message boards.

That said, it is still illegal.  I just disagree with the statement that people are losing money from it.
HaemishM
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Reply #15 on: May 28, 2004, 08:52:36 AM

I love this quote from the Harvard Study Hanzii linked to.

Quote
Few of the artists who create one of the roughly 30,000 albums released each year in the U.S. will make a living from their sales because only a few albums are ever profitable.27 In fact, only a small number of established acts receive contracts with royalty rates ensuring financial
sufficiency while the remaining artists must rely on other sources of income like touring or other jobs (Albini, 1994; Passman, 2000).


In other words, the industry itself is the one fucking the artists, not the pirates.

Look a pirate is someone who proifts on the theft of goods. File-sharers, with very rare examples, DO NOT PROFIT from the transaction, other than gaining new music. The people who need to busted on copyright infringement are the jackholes selling bootlegged CD's on the streets. The problem with these industries is they haven't quite been able to reconcile the fact that file-sharing is some of the best marketing they could ever get, and it's totally fucking free. If the product is decent, word-of-mouth is so effective a marketing tool as to be beyond belief. The only problems with word-of-mouth marketing if you often cannot control the message, nor can you track any sort of "return on investment" or ROI. Plus, when WOM marketing goes south, its negative impact is just as strong as its positive one.

WOM probably contributed to the lackluster box office on The Hulk movie after the first weekend. Marketers hate relinquising control of the message, and not being able to chart and track ROI. But the fact that some entertainment companies are hiring shills to go on message boards and chat rooms and hype their shit tells me they are starting to get it. They just don't want to let go of the control, because with WOM, you can't hide a shitty product with hype.

Neph
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Reply #16 on: May 28, 2004, 11:16:05 AM

Don't most artists make their money off concert sales of goods anyways? You download the bands album, fall in love with it, go see their show, but their stuff, artist makes money.

Your nightmares are real.
ClydeJr
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Reply #17 on: May 28, 2004, 11:50:22 AM

Quote from: Hanzii
There's no proper research in support of the claim that piracy is in any way shape or form hurting music and movie sales, just the commonly held belief that "it must do... it makes sense."


I liked this article on what numbers the RIAA and Soundscan (Neilsens for music sales) each use. RIAA uses units shipped to retailers to determine their numbers. Soundscan uses units sold to consumers. RIAA says they're down 7% while Soundscan says they're up 9.4%. Possible explanation is that while people are buying more music, retailers are keeping smaller inventories.
HaemishM
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Reply #18 on: May 28, 2004, 11:57:28 AM

The more I hear, the more the RIAA reminds me of the "Seven Dwarves" of the tobacco companies.

"Cigarettes are not addictive."

Dark Vengeance
Delinquents
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Reply #19 on: May 28, 2004, 12:10:58 PM

Quote from: HaemishM
Bullshit. Piracy is a straw man used by rich men to ensure they stay rich instead of evolving with the technology. It is the first cry of dinosaurs who don't want to be turned into oil.


Instead of oil, can we turn them into a mid-grade unleaded gasoline?

Because I'm not pirating to keep them from becoming rich, I'm pirating because it costs me $2.30 a gallon if I want to drive to the local Sam Goody.

Of course, that assumes that downloading songs by the NESkimos and Minibosses constitutes piracy.

Speaking of which...nice link off of the NESkimos website for a fake trailer for a fake Mega Man movie. See it here.

Bring the noise.
Cheers..............
HRose
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Reply #20 on: May 29, 2004, 10:40:27 PM

Don't discuss about Italy, the actual government is just hilarious.

They are approving a list of laws about IT that aren't even applicable. The incompetence is at an unmatched height.

If you want to sing the national hymn you have to pay for copyright.

-HRose / Abalieno
cesspit.net
Murgos
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Reply #21 on: May 30, 2004, 08:46:49 AM

Quote from: HaemishM

In other words, the industry itself is the one fucking the artists, not the pirates.


A solo artist should only need to sell about 10,000 copies of thier album over a year to make a minor living (25 - 30 k).  That's only a 15% payout to the artist.  If the big studio system is so inefficient that they can't turn a profit on 10,000 units sold then maybe they need a new system.

I've seen stuff talking about where if the artist doesn't sell 200k copies of an album they don't get a dime and in fact end up indebted to the record company and forced to tour to make good on the investment.  200k copies, at $15 to $20 dollars a piece?  The guy should be almost a millionaire by then but nope, indebt up to his eyebrows.

It's axiomatic that the one screwing the little guy is the big guy not the other little guys.  Anything telling you differently is just another variation on 'the big lie'.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
stray
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Reply #22 on: May 30, 2004, 09:18:28 AM

Quote from: HaemishM
I love this quote from the Harvard Study Hanzii linked to.

In other words, the industry itself is the one fucking the artists, not the pirates.


Try this one too. It's a classic: http://www.negativland.com/albini.html

More good reading from Negativland:

http://www.negativland.com/intprop.html
HaemishM
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Reply #23 on: June 01, 2004, 09:27:03 AM

Ice T talked about the music industry on his "Behind the Music" special. Apparently he wanted to put a book/album combo that was all about Pimps and the Pimp Lifestyle. I'm paraphrasing here, but the gist was:

If I can sell this album/book for $100 on my website, and only have to sell 100,000 copies, why wouldn't I? If I tried selling it through the record companies, I have to sell like 500,000 just to make ends meet.

Just like the comic book industry, the real problem with profits in the music industry is the middlemen.

Roac
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Reply #24 on: June 02, 2004, 10:53:01 AM

Quote
A solo artist should only need to sell about 10,000 copies of thier album over a year to make a minor living (25 - 30 k). That's only a 15% payout to the artist.


Ah, if only life were so simple.  They usually get far higher royalties than that.  However, there are costs - quite a few of them -assossiated with being an artist.  
http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/music-royalties6.htm

Educating yourself instead of blowing smoke is good.

-Roac
King of Ravens

"Young people who pretend to be wise to the ways of the world are mostly just cynics. Cynicism masquerades as wisdom, but it is the farthest thing from it. Because cynics don't learn anything. Because cynicism is a self-imposed blindness, a rejection of the world because we are afraid it will hurt us or disappoint us." -SC
schild
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Reply #25 on: June 02, 2004, 11:00:45 AM

I think the point isn't 'how it works,' it's 'how it should work.' Logically, record companies would be nothing without the artist. Keeping them happy produces more and possibly better music. Pay them phat moneyz and stop leeching the artists of society.
Roac
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Reply #26 on: June 02, 2004, 11:19:10 AM

Quote
Logically, record companies would be nothing without the artist.


And the artist would be nothing without the record company.  Nothing stops artists from paying recording fees, marketing costs, or negotiating royalty payments on their own.  Almost no one does it seriously, because it's HARD.  Read, expensive.

The difference here is that the record company takes on almost all the financial risk.  If they like you, they will sign a contract with you and pay you money up front so that you can, you know, eat.  There's no guarantee the record compnay will recoup their losses in sales - your album could tank and wind up a loss.  Some successful artists have bitched and screamed because they think it's sloppy to allow such a high failure rate, although I haven't read much that shows what could be done better.  If the record companies really are greedy, selfish bastards as are claimed by some artists, I don't see why they would allow such wasteful spending to proliferate.  There's probably an intelligent answer to that situation, but it requires more thought than simple one line shots by artists at the companies.

Because the companies take on almost all the risk, however, they are also in a position of extreme negotiating advantage with the artists.  They can put a lot of crap into the contract that eats up royalties, because risk requires reward to be worth it.  If artists really want more of the pie, they're going to have to ante up a lot more, and take on more work.  And again, they're perfectly free to; there's no law saying they have to sign on with such and such label, or accept a contract presented to them.  They do it because it looks to be the easiest thing at the time, and if they chance to hit it big, they suddenly want all the money without thinking about what all went into where they got to be.

Does the system need improving?  Probably.  I've known a few college bands (my brother is in one), and a couple who wound up professional (though none wildly successful).  They're all disgruntled at how things work.  None of them, though, actually put any work into changing what goes on, or how they operate their business.  Most of them don't have a head for business, which is part of their problem.  Crying that the record companies are money grubbing bastards doesn't move the problem forward though, because the artists (starving and otherwise) are too.  I don't see a lot of artists crying over failed record companies, and the corresponding people who lost jobs as a result.

*shrug*
Cuts both ways.  The artists aren't right by default just because they're the ones behind the mic.

-Roac
King of Ravens

"Young people who pretend to be wise to the ways of the world are mostly just cynics. Cynicism masquerades as wisdom, but it is the farthest thing from it. Because cynics don't learn anything. Because cynicism is a self-imposed blindness, a rejection of the world because we are afraid it will hurt us or disappoint us." -SC
Sky
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I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #27 on: June 02, 2004, 12:11:11 PM

Quote
Educating yourself instead of blowing smoke is good.

I couldn't agree more.
HaemishM
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the Confederate flag underneath the stone in my class ring


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Reply #28 on: June 02, 2004, 02:17:04 PM

Quote from: Roac
I don't see why they would allow such wasteful spending to proliferate.  There's probably an intelligent answer to that situation, but it requires more thought than simple one line shots by artists at the companies.


For the same reasons the artists you mention don't gain a head for business. Because they've always done it this way and it's made them money, and changing that mentality is HARD.

Murgos
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Reply #29 on: June 02, 2004, 03:51:25 PM

Quote from: Roac
Quote
A solo artist should only need to sell about 10,000 copies of thier album over a year to make a minor living (25 - 30 k). That's only a 15% payout to the artist.


Ah, if only life were so simple.  They usually get far higher royalties than that.  However, there are costs - quite a few of them -assossiated with being an artist.  
http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/music-royalties6.htm

Educating yourself instead of blowing smoke is good.


Utterly, completely missed the point.

If you can't turn a profit on $200,000 net income your business model sucks, fix it.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
Sky
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I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #30 on: June 03, 2004, 06:39:00 AM

Ignorance is bliss.
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