HEY RAPH [About that Gamespot interview...]

[schild]

GS: I'm wondering what you guys are doing with Untold Legends and the PSP. I see "Sony Online Entertainment" and I just think, "They're the MMO guys."

RK: So, obviously, MMOs is central to us and core to us and so on, but I think everybody would agree that trying to make a PSP MMO launch title might have been a bit too much to bite off for the very first time. I don't know if you played Untold Legends but we put a big emphasis on multiplayer in that. Online is about the connectedness; it's not necessarily about client-server to us. So, with Untold Legends, we pursued multi-player. Actually, we did on the PS2 as well with Champions of Norrath. It was the same kind of thing.

GS: Well, that at least was using the EverQuest world that Sony Online owns, right?

RK: Are you complaining because we created a new world?

GS: Not at all. I'm just saying it seems a little bit outside of your core expertise, or the brand recognition of Sony Online.

RK: Creating a brand-new Fantasy IP? You dissing us or what? I don't know.

GS: It's not online. I wondered why SCEA wouldn't handle it, any one of their many...

RK: We came up with it. We wanted to work on the PSP. A great first step seemed to us to be, "Let's make a multiplayer classic dungeon crawl game but you can play multiplayer Wi-Fi." That sounds online to us.

GIVE THE INTERNAL DEV GROUPS IN SOE SPECIAL NAMES, PLZ, OK, YESTERDAY.

And..."That sounds online to us." - Uhm. You played Untold Legends right? Ad Hoc mode is not "online" it's "in living room. With a friend. Within 25 feet."

GS: You said an MMO PSP launch title would be a bit much. Is an MMO PSP title…?

RK: …

GS: …

That is a red panda. Not to be confused with the red herring.

Before someone asks, yes, I was hoping Raph would be positively assaulted for SW:G. For simply mentioning it earlier in the interview for that matter. Not to worry though, SOE's tarnished name from the NGE will be at least partially cleansed by the awesomeness of Field Commander. Not that I've played it or...ya know...anything like that (preview coming soon, like mondayish).

[SnakeCharmer]

Before someone asks, yes, I was hoping Raph would be positively assaulted for SW:G. For simply mentioning it earlier in the interview for that matter. Not to worry though, SOE's tarnished name from the NGE will be at least partially cleansed by the awesomeness of Field Commander. Not that I've played it or...ya know...anything like that (preview coming soon, like mondayish).

I think alot of people felt the same way, alas, no such luck.  But, then again, you dont get the good interviews later on for hammering a "big wig".  Of course, Raph will continue his mantra of "I didnt have much to do with SW:G shortly after launch", in order to distance himself away from the utter failure that it is.  Not to say I dont blame him thou. 

Noone has stepped up to the plate and hit anyone from SOE/LA out of the park with an indepth, honest interview at what in the fook is going on over there.  The AotS interview was a complete joke, and the interviews that HAVE happened are answered with generic, cookie cutter answers.

[Soln]

Wow, calling out The Raph.  /popcorn

[Lantyssa]

That is a red panda. Not to be confused with the red herring.

And a very cute red panda it is!

Before someone asks, yes, I was hoping Raph would be positively assaulted for SW:G. For simply mentioning it earlier in the interview for that matter.

We all know that no one from SOE can talk about the negative aspects of what went on for quite some time.  The best we will get are the few remarks by Smed or others that they underestimated the impact but are not changing their minds.  It is a shame, because I would love to hear candid talk on what happened behind the scenes, but I know it will never happen.

[HaemishM]

Damn Raph, I hope that interview wasn't in person. That level of douchebaggery from an interviewer in person should get rewarded with a Sean Penn.

[Toast]

I thought devs can't respond to "Blue plz read" posts.

That being said, the goings on at SOE from Everquest through the NGE would make great reading in book. This Star Wars thing is just stunning.

[Murgos]

If I were a dev I wouldn't respond to a call out post.

The only way to win is not to play.

[Morat20]

I thought devs can't respond to "Blue plz read" posts.

That being said, the goings on at SOE from Everquest through the NGE would make great reading in book. This Star Wars thing is just stunning.

  I'd LOVE to see how the decision went down. What these guys were telling themselves every step of the way. I've heard rumors -- from a lot of sources--- that the churn at SWG got really bad the end of 2005 (even before the NGE launch) so it's not like no one had a clue.

   Freeman claimed a lot of credit before the size of the blowback became known --reading between the lines, it sounded like he pushed the idea hard to everyone. But that could have been bragging for when he felt it'd be a feather in his cap, not a lead weight.  I suspect Smedly was totally out of the loop -- he strikes me as more of the PR-style manager (spends his time working on image and 'big plans for the future' rather than the nuts and bolts of the business).

   But someone well placed over there had to be clueless enough to think it would be a good idea to totally reinvent the game (for the second time in 6 months!) on a fragile player base. Others had to embark on an amazing journey of deception to prove it would be popular and still others to prove it was ready for release.

  It's gotten to the point where I love going to the SWG forums. Every day at 2:00, I grab myself a bag of popcorn, sit down, and play "What idiot freaking decision did the devs and designers make today.....". Got to do something before my DBMS class.

[HaemishM]

I suspect Smedly was totally out of the loop -- he strikes me as more of the PR-style manager (spends his time working on image and 'big plans for the future' rather than the nuts and bolts of the business).

I'm pretty sure Smed isn't even in the same state that the SWG dev team is. SWG is done out of Austin and Smed's probably in San Diego. He probably heard about this great idea from the head man over at Austin, said it sounded great and signed off on it without ever seeing the actual product.

Big mistake.

[Fabricated]

edit, I'm blind. Didn't notice it already in the SWG thread.

[Morat20]

I suspect Smedly was totally out of the loop -- he strikes me as more of the PR-style manager (spends his time working on image and 'big plans for the future' rather than the nuts and bolts of the business).

I'm pretty sure Smed isn't even in the same state that the SWG dev team is. SWG is done out of Austin and Smed's probably in San Diego. He probably heard about this great idea from the head man over at Austin, said it sounded great and signed off on it without ever seeing the actual product.

Big mistake.

That makes sense. I'd like to know what senior-level managers/leads have been with SWG over the last 18 months or so -- as well as what portion of the SOE upper-level managment exercises direct control over the SWG team.
 
  Some of the SWG issues are corporate-wide issues of SOE as a whole, but there seems to be a whole 'nother layer at SWG that seems to persist despite high Dev churn. It speaks of poor software engineering and a very unhealthy business culture -- mistakes aren't being corrected, they're being nutured. I wonder if it's the Peter Principle at work?

  If their external management is distant, and the Austin head honcho is a Peter Principle victim, that would explain a lot - but only if he's been there for at least a year.

   Although I wonder how much of this is simply an issue with the industry as a whole -- sometimes reading about it sounds like a Dilbert strip come to life. "Let's do a re-org! My bad decisions are catching up to me!"

[Sky]

WTF came over schild?

[Arthur_Parker]

I'm just waiting for a Red Name to make a thread called "HEY SCHILD", with the contents "you still fucking goats?", then my day can be complete.

[Hoax]

Somebody give me a red name, I'll do it.  I can be a developer for Mourning: Made In America!

[Venkman]

A few of us have been asking for specific names for each SOE MMO team. It's important they do this now because all of SOE is being tarnished by the SWG fiasco. People need to stop blaming "SOE" for it. They need to stop blaming "Raph" for it too (friggin' nuevo-intellects who stumble upon a guy's name and think "Hey! Let's pounce on him!11!/1 rar!", two years after he's had any involvement with the game).

EQ2 is actually doing pretty well. EQ1 is still (oddly enough) going. PS too (even more odd). There's people who like MxO and TT, and probably bought a few AC1 expansions. All of these teams though are getting dragged into the collective mud because in every breadth uttered about SWG online and in print, it's "SOE".

Bad move on their part to not have separated it out long before this.

Move SOE to the background. Gamers don't want to know about SOE. Fine they're  tech provider and all, but with their history, they need a new image, almost so much so "SOE" should be moved to the background.

But I doubt that'll happen. I don't know how much overlap each individual has with Central Command, but I suspect it's just enough that someone feels authority must start and end there no matter what.

[Riggswolfe]

They need to stop blaming "Raph" for it too (friggin' nuevo-intellects who stumble upon a guy's name and think "Hey! Let's pounce on him!11!/1 rar!", two years after he's had any involvement with the game).

Raph is blamed because SWG was broken at launch. He was there. He was lead designer. He gets the blame. If it launched as a pretty good game that got ruined later by the live team it'd be unfair. The live team screwed up what was already broken though at this point so he still gets some shit for it.

Fair?

He got to cash a paycheck for it so I say yes.

[HaemishM]

EQ2 is actually doing pretty well.

And is actually, God help us all, pretty decent fun. Whatever the EQ2 live team is smoking, it needs to make it to Austin.

Bad move on their part to not have separated it out long before this.

Move SOE to the background. Gamers don't want to know about SOE. Fine they're  tech provider and all, but with their history, they need a new image, almost so much so "SOE" should be moved to the background.

It won't happen because it's completely against SONY corporate culture. Sony is all about building a brand, build a name up. Vaio, Wega, SOE. SOE is like I said, a brand name for MMOG's and online entertainment, or at least that's what they've tried to build it as for the last 5 years. Which in corporate terms means that either they keep at it until it runs into the ground (the Bush approach) or they quietly change it and the exec behind it gets shitcanned.

[Cheddar]

There is no such thing as bad press!!!   

[sarius]

It won't happen because it's completely against SONY corporate culture. Sony is all about building a brand, build a name up. Vaio, Wega, SOE. SOE is like I said, a brand name for MMOG's and online entertainment, or at least that's what they've tried to build it as for the last 5 years. Which in corporate terms means that either they keep at it until it runs into the ground (the Bush approach) or they quietly change it and the exec behind it gets shitcanned.

The fact that Vaio computers still exist after the millions lost and reported in loss statements should show you that it's not just immediate money that drives their direction.

It's too bad that SOE isn't made into a separate subsidiary with its own stock.  I would love to read the minutes they file.

[jpark]

EQ2 is actually doing pretty well. EQ1 is still (oddly enough) going. PS too (even more odd).

The metrics behind your first comment fascinate me - this is based on?

[squirrel]

Er, whatever, imo the interviewer was being a 'tard. History is history but i'd hate to have to account for every one of my co-workers decisions, even the ones i respect. I don't actually play any SOE games - nor have i in the past much - but i do keep up and from what i can tell it kind of goes like this in my mind:


Interesting ideas - perhaps impractical                                          Implementation                                             Pig-fucking your customers
|---- Raph --------------------- Some talented designers ---------------------- Devs ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Smed -------- Sony -----|

I kind of need a second axis to show effectiveness but that's effort....suffice to say that i don't have a tonne of respect for the SWG team or the EQII team from what i've seen although at least EQII seems to be inline with what it's supposed to be.

[Raph]

I do like the panda.

PS, yeah, it was in person.

[schild]

I do like the panda.

PS, yeah, it was in person.

I hope you wangslapped him in the face.

[Venkman]

Raph is blamed because SWG was broken at launch

"Broken" and "unplayable" are two different things. It was playable and had a lot to enjoy. Combat was the biggest broken system in the game, which is part of why it never really gained huge numbers. It's mostly been combat that has seen the most changes as a result.

At the same time though, we don't know what SOE and LA originally directed. It's quite obvious they didn't want EQ in space with Wookiees, since we knew it wouldn't be this from day one. To me, they set about creating UO in space, something to broaden the SOE line. The priority on socioeconomics for launch, and those that were patched in over the succeeding year, is the most direct indication of this. Combat was a discussion that was only seriously begun five months after launch, which means the stuff they had in development queue were tied to the original vision which didn't prioritize them.

Who's to blame for that? Raph who was responsible for execution or the total team of himself, SOE at large, and LA who all approved the Vision?

The metrics behind your first comment fascinate me - this is based on?

Their continued slow growth and the fact that the EQ2 pulls in enough cash to continually release expansions and major free content upgrades. They wouldn't do this if they couldn't justify it. There's only so long you can continue to throw money at a failure (AC2, MCO, JG), ergo, EQ2 is not a failure for SOE.

Players think it's a "failure" because it never achieved even EQ1 numbers, much less FFXI, GW, nor WoW. But my point about this whole genre is that comparisons like that are only partially relevant.. If a development team budget is scaled appropriately, anyone can "make money" in this genre. Look at ATITD or Eve or SL. They don't make the billions Blizzard/VUG has, but are successful at their own scale.

EQ2 is successful at its own scale. It's not like they just take money from EQ1 or SWG and put it on EQ2. That may happen for things like CSR and backoffice chat/community servers. But for the game assets themselves, I imagine the budgets are unique per game. They have to be because of the different teams and different methodologies of their pipelines.

[Morat20]

EQ2 is successful at its own scale. It's not like they just take money from EQ1 or SWG and put it on EQ2. That may happen for things like CSR and backoffice chat/community servers. But for the game assets themselves, I imagine the budgets are unique per game. They have to be because of the different teams and different methodologies of their pipelines.

To tangent here a bit -- it's the matters of scale that make me suspect SWG can't continue much longer. SWG has a gigantic Dev team, way too many servers for the population, and a licensing agreement with LA. EQ2 doesn't have that -- it's all Sony IP, they've just gotten done merging servers and seem to be changing the code in ways to make it more maintable and easier to expand with the same staff. (Why that wasn't done in the first place is beyond me). EQ2 appears to be settling in for the long haul -- a Dev team, engine, and server set designed to coast on minimal or flat growth while maintaining a steady profit.

SWG is different -- although the rumors I keep hearing indicate they shrunk their Dev team by simply losing a lot of key personnel over the last several months. Nonetheless, they're stuck with a hard-to-merge server set. They're stuck with a licensing deal with a heavyweight company -- one who probably isn't going to want to be generous with renegotiation because odds are they're blaming SOE and SOE is blaming them. And they've got a lot fewer players than EQ or EQ2. I can't see how SWG is even remotely profitable with SOE right now -- and seeing their just released publish plan ( 7 months on a once a month schedule, more likely 12 to 18 months) -- I can't see how it can become profitable in that time span.

I think WoW is making some CEO's and managers aim for the "big kill" -- millions of subs -- instead of doing the smart thing and banking on small but steady profit.

In that, SOE is being oddly schizo. On the one hand, they have the Station Pass -- a way to further enchance revenue from a stable of smaller games at low cost. (You can only play one at a time, so by paying for access to the others SOE is making more money without extra overhead). But on the other hand, they've been playing silly buggers with SWG trying to chase higher numbers (I can believe SWG isn't profitable now, but it was pre-CU and CU -- perhaps not as much as they wanted, but it was the sort of steady profit they're happy with in other games). Maybe it's LucasArts. Maybe it's the fixed costs they have with SWG and don't with other games. Maybe it's the SWG team itself, which seems to be a wholly seperate and wholly retarded aspect of SOE. Or maybe their utter failure with the NGE -- and the corresponding rise of EVE -- convinced them that long term steady subs are better than the brief spikes of profit.

I don't think EVE-online's story has escaped them at all. It's obvious EVE benefited from the changes at SWG, and their slow but steady climb from obscurity into the 100k+ realms has been almost as much talked about as the NGE. (I see EVE online threads everywhere -- and they last well past the SWG sucks threads). While I suspect many will draw the wrong lessons from SWG (innovation sucks. Sandbox sucks.), I hope EVE will counterbalance it. Quality matters. Innovation matters. Sandbox matters.

I suspect the biggest lesson that companies will miss from EVE is simple: EVE has hardcore PvP, but has attracted people who aren't hardcore PvPers. A game that offers much to different types of gamers has more potential for long-term success. SWG limped along as long as it did because it offered content to groups most MMORPG's ignore. EVE is gaining ground despite it's hardcore nature (it's got just enough carebear -- in terms of high-security sectors -- to make it playable for people who don't live for hardcore PvP) because it offers content to others. A decent crafting system, an excellent ecomony/trading system, good guilds, the ability to actually change the game world -- the more the big players shuffle to WoW-clones, the more those niche games are going to draw.

[Hoax]

I don't think EVE-online's story has escaped them at all. It's obvious EVE benefited from the changes at SWG, and their slow but steady climb from obscurity into the 100k+ realms has been almost as much talked about as the NGE. (I see EVE online threads everywhere -- and they last well past the SWG sucks threads). While I suspect many will draw the wrong lessons from SWG (innovation sucks. Sandbox sucks.), I hope EVE will counterbalance it. Quality matters. Innovation matters. Sandbox matters.

I suspect the biggest lesson that companies will miss from EVE is simple: EVE has hardcore PvP, but has attracted people who aren't hardcore PvPers. A game that offers much to different types of gamers has more potential for long-term success. SWG limped along as long as it did because it offered content to groups most MMORPG's ignore. EVE is gaining ground despite it's hardcore nature (it's got just enough carebear -- in terms of high-security sectors -- to make it playable for people who don't live for hardcore PvP) because it offers content to others. A decent crafting system, an excellent ecomony/trading system, good guilds, the ability to actually change the game world -- the more the big players shuffle to WoW-clones, the more those niche games are going to draw.

Very well said, it'll never happen though, instead WoW will result in the second comming of EVEN MORE VANILLA FANTASY EQ CLONES.

*sigh*

[Venkman]

To tangent here a bit -- it's the matters of scale that make me suspect SWG can't continue much longer

It's sad when a tangent brings us back on topic :)

Anyway, all of what you say is fairly straight on. The SWG team is probably still too big for what the game has become. Unfortunately, unlike EQ2 and EQ1 before it, server merges in SWG are far more complex, given how the game works. It's not some blind hope for improvement that keeps them from doing this (or at least it's not all blind hope).

Station Pass doesn't really help them all that much. They get to collect more money per person per months, but these are still all time sinks. A normal (ie, the average) player does not have the sort of time required to maximize enjoyment in multiple MMORPGs, even if they're paying for it. The Station Pass is a high-margin opportunity fee (profits for SOE and a believed-opportunity for players), but it also covers five MMORPGs (six if you include EQ for the Mac). The more they push the Pass, the more they devalue the impressions of each of their individual games. It used to be that each game was worth a full fee by itself. Now it seems its not. They have not benefited by having their combined userbase all go Station Pass. They've lost people from individual games they've only partially offset (as in, not equal) by those who get the Pass. Therefore, I consider the Pass a rear-guard action, something they may consider a mistake a year or two from now.

Finally, I agree with Hoax: WoW raised the bar for generic fantasy titles, but won't compel more innovation by itself. We've got dozens of fantasy-themed MMOGs now. WoW just means you need a huger budget and farther reach to hope to get success at yet another one.

And I agree because EQ1 did it before them. Everyone was "shocked" by it's 500k in comparison to other games just as they are by WoW's millions (1.5mil in the U.S.). The proportions for success have gone up, but the whole genre in the U.S. is still only around 2.5mil accounts across all games. So there's much more room to grow, and it ain't gonna happen with more Elves and magic.

[schild]

There are thousands of other threads you can talk about the merits of WoW, the failures of SW:G, comparisons to EQ, and whatnot. Hell, we have an SW:G thread we've got to get to page 70. Comeon, get out of here, let the thread die, Raph responded, I know he read it, all is good in the world.

[Venkman]

You're right. Back on topic: I'm no longer going to refer to the actions of the individual teams by "SOE". It's "EQ team", "SWG team" and so on even if they don't want to. In my strong opinion, that's the right way to discuss their products, to shield the gaffes from the blameless.

(edit to move this quote from the wrong thread)

[Yegolev]

It is a shame, because I would love to hear candid talk on what happened behind the scenes, but I know it will never happen.

Join FoH, suck some dick, you never know.

[cevik]

You're right. Back on topic: I'm no longer going to refer to the actions of the individual teams by "SOE". It's "EQ team", "SWG team" and so on even if they don't want to. In my strong opinion, that's the right way to discuss their products, to shield the gaffes from the blameless.

(edit to move this quote from the wrong thread)

I don't get why schild is so big on differentiating the teams at SOE or why he thinks that is some kind of valid defensive strategy to try (or why he's trying to defend those pigfuckers at all).  They all end up fucking you in the exact same way in the end.  Lets face it, SOE is the shittiest dev house/publisher/whatever the fuck they are that exists today.

And yes, that includes EA.

[schild]

Lets face it, SOE is the shittiest dev house/publisher/whatever the fuck they are that exists today.

And yes, that includes EA.

That's not even boarderline psychotic. It's full on daffy duck insane.

[Venkman]

I don't get why schild is so big on differentiating the teams at SOE or why he thinks that is some kind of valid defensive strategy to try (or why he's trying to defend those pigfuckers at all). They all end up fucking you in the exact same way in the end. Lets face it, SOE is the shittiest dev house/ publisher/ whatever the fuck they are that exists today.

It's not just schild. As I said above, a few of us have been saying this for awhile. The teams at SOE have been saying this at well. There's some crossover in functions, but Scott Hartmann's got no more creative decision making power for SWG than Jeff Freeman has for EQ2.

As a whole, yea, they've got lots of issues. But the teams are semi-autonomous to the point where blaming EQ2 for the NGE is just stupid. That's be like blaming the crappy character movements in AA on Cryptic, or wondering why they didn't just "take the character physics from CoH" and put them in AA.

[Soln]

why all the public heat and posting from gaming professionals (read: self-interested people who make games)?  And is it chicken&egg (which came first, the heat or all the public postings)?

I'm just curious after reading all of Smed and Hartsman's posting over at FoH.  I can't see Speilberg or the like bothering to post at all to any movie forums for WarO'Worlds.  Are they trying to influence public opinion?  (even possible from gamer forums?)

[Lantyssa]

It is a shame, because I would love to hear candid talk on what happened behind the scenes, but I know it will never happen.

Join FoH, suck some dick, you never know.

I do not want to know that badly.  I reserve such things for people I like.  A lot.

(Before anyone asks: No, I do not like you that much.)