I hate cars....

[Pococurante]

I was disappointed the GXP won't have the LS2 engine - that's the only reason I held out as long as I did since existing models have such an anemic power plant.  I'd pay a premium for the GXP though as long as prices aren't too crazy, and worse case the 2006 models will be deeply discounted.  Every dealer I've seen has at least five on the lot.

I detest the Vauxhall nose on the Sky.  Makes me think of the abomination of the 2007 GTO.  And the side panels remind me of the old Mustang IIs - gee I hope it has a cute vanity mirror too.    It also comes with the same pathetic engine as the existing Solstice.  Ugh.

Curves.  I'm male. It's all about the curves.  And good Belgian trippel ale while laughing at Benny Hill re-runs.  But mainly curves.

GM hopes enough buyers will discriminate between the two roadsters enough to help elevate Saturn upmarket, as a more prestigious, sophisticated brand than Pontiac.

 

[MisterNoisy]

Personally, if I were looking for a roadster, I'd skip both and buy the new Miata, but that's just me.  :P  Better power/weight and gobs more refinement for the same price.  That said, if Mazda brought this to market, I'd buy one without hesitation.

[Righ]

I'd rather get a Lotus Elise than one of those MX5, VX220 or Solstice things. Because I'd rather a sportscar be fun to drive than a pretty thing to show off my haircut in.

As for the original question... there is no new car for sale in America worth shelling out 15 large for. A used Toyota Celica is a good option. It's as efficient as a Focus, and is more reliable according to consumer reports (and unlike the US Focus, doesn't have the washy steering and front suspension). A 3-4 year old four banger can be had in your price range if you shop around and push the dealers.

Use this to check MPG figures.

[schild]

Yea but a Celica is for wee tiny people. It was one of the cars I test drove before I chose the RSX Type-S. The Lexus IS-300 ain't bad either.

[Righ]

Only wee tiny people get good fuel economy. Everybody else should get a Jag. Or two.

[TheWalrus]

That ecotec turbo charged is still a lot of engine for that car. Have you stood next to one? I crossed the street the other day, and they aren't fucking huge. (I really like it in blue.) It's definitely more than enough horse to successfully reduce it to its base parts on collision with a wall. Unless you're fucking huge, and you need the top down to accomodate your arm fat hanging outside the door.

[Signe]

Only wee tiny people get good fuel economy. Everybody else should get a Jag. Or two.

You're making jokes people won't get.  My Chumbawamba/Fatty Two Jags joke was misunderstood.  We should save these jokes til mid-day AM GMT, when someone will get them.

[Sky]

On a tangent: I'm still baffled why anyone would buy a domestic car that wasn't build in or before the muscle car era (with the possible exception of trucks/SUV's).

Economy, trade deficit, etc.

[Strazos]

The new Miata looks to be a fine car.

I'm pretty sure I would hurt someone for a Lotus.

[Roac]

The new Miata looks to be a fine car.

I'm pretty sure I would hurt someone for a Lotus.

Downside to the Miata is that there is no pretense of practicality.  That's what drove me to buy my Firebird (what's with the Pontiac h8? :(   ).  It's sporty enough to be fun, but big enough that I can haul stuff around in it.  So far I've crammed everything from a wheelbarrow to small furniture in the back.  There's also something to be said for the baby seat that I have in the back.  I dunno what, but something.   

Come to think of it, I think I have something for discontinued cars.  Right after I bought my Escort, they discontinued it and moved to the Focus.  Right after I bought my Firebird, they discontinued those.  My wife just bought an Aztek (Pontiac  I guess), and they're done for.

[Strazos]

Downside to the Miata is that there is no pretense of practicality.  That's what drove me to buy my Firebird (what's with the Pontiac h8? :(   ).  It's sporty enough to be fun, but big enough that I can haul stuff around in it.  So far I've crammed everything from a wheelbarrow to small furniture in the back.  There's also something to be said for the baby seat that I have in the back.  I dunno what, but something.   

TRUE car lovers have no such concerns when purchasing a fine automobile - they either find a friend with a truck, or buy a beat-up one to use themselves. 

As an aside, I do manage to fit lots of skiing/hockey gear into my Mustang without much difficulty.

I use to put shit into peoples' cars for a living....you can fit things into a smaller car, you just have to be creative (or not give a shit).

[Roac]

Yeah, well, soon as I make enough that I can buy two cars just for myself, without having to explain why I can't put it toward the house, wife, or kid, I'll be set :P

I am starting to look at Mustang again.  I haven't liked them for years because of the body style.  Just really uninterested in it, although I really like the new design.  Since they don't make 'em anymore I figure I'll drive my Firebird until the engine falls out of it, but the new Mustang is a cannidate for what I'll go after when it does. 

[Viin]

I think the Sky looks pretty good. Shame the engine isn't more exciting. While I'm into roadsters, if I was going to plop down the cash for a second car (why would you have it as your primary?) it certainly wouldn't be a Saturn.

[Nebu]

On a tangent: I'm still baffled why anyone would buy a domestic car that wasn't build in or before the muscle car era (with the possible exception of trucks/SUV's).

Economy, trade deficit, etc.

Buying poorly made products is always a bad idea.  It erodes the process.  
  

[Merusk]

A car, like most big purchases is a personal thing.  Everyone has their quirks about automobile purchases.  I, for example, will never buy new unless I somehow come into so much money that I don't care.  I also won't buy anything smaller than a Sedan unless the prior statement also comes true.  SUVs are right-out just because I don't like the rollover potential and if I need the capacity of a Minivan, I'll buy a damn minivan.  My ego isn't so fragile that I need to protect it with the delusion that I'm young and 'with it' by purchasing an "offroad" vehicle that'll never leave the highway.

I still find it funny so many people are celebrating Honda when I've found them to be overpriced shit.  When we were looking last year after the Roadmaster I'd inherited finally was costing more to repair than I felt was worth it(150k+ miles, tho) we took a look at Honda.  Their "certified used vehicles" and loan incentives were enough to get me in the door at least.  They were selling 2000 Accuras with V6s and 50k miles on them in the $18-$20k range.  When we wanted to test drive one, two of them wouldn't start (and it wasn't a battery problem, they tried jumping them.)  The one that DID start had a bunch of standing water in the trunk, and (I felt) handled poorly on the road so I didn't even bother with the highway.   

My sister suggested we check-out Saturn because she's always loved hers.  Went to the dealership they were selling previously-leased  2001 L300s (Saturn's Sedan, comporably to the Accura) with a V6 and 30k miles on them for $12,500.  They had all the trimmings, (Well, for a Saturn: 6-cd changer, sun/moon roof, cruise, fold-down rear seat, Alloy rims) except for interior leather.  Plus I got the remainder of the warranty 2-years or 50k miles. It should be obvious which one we bought and I haven't regretted it or had any problems. Considering I drive hard (65 is 'slow') and on torn-up Kentucky roads, that's impressivle to me.

[HaemishM]

I like my Pontiac. I like the way it drives, and it handles my shitty lack of maintenence well. Of course, it holds its value about as well as a middle-aged hooker.

[Alkiera]

I also did not buy my Civic new.  It's an 89, currently has 210,000+ miles on it.  Had about 187k or so when I got it.  I've taken it on long car trips, all over.  Worst problems I have had with it are keeping mufflers and body parts on it(rear bumper, really), it has lived its entire life in western NY.  Between purchase and nonaccident related repairs, I've maybe put $4000 into it in the 3-4 years I've owned it.

As a side note, the thing I hate worst about NY is the effect salt has on cars.  Closely followed by our stupid state and local governments, and the taxes.

Alkiera

[Signe]

I hate every car I've ever owned in the US.  We have a Mustang GT now and I hate it.  The only cars I've truly liked were our TVRs.  I miss them.    We're getting rid of the Mustang shortly and I have no idea what we'll get next.  Whatever it is, I'm sure I'll hate it.

[Furiously]

Maybe you are a motorcycle person...

[Strazos]

I hate every car I've ever owned in the US. We have a Mustang GT now and I hate it. The only cars I've truly liked were our TVRs. I miss them.

In the interest of fairness, comparing a TVR to a Mustang is extremely unfair.

If I had a TVR and had to give it up, I would cry too.

[Signe]

Maybe you are a motorcycle person...

I love Moto GP but Righ would love being in Moto GP.  He's the motorbike guy, not me.  He gave it all up when he married me, though, and started driving cars, instead.  Considering the sort of cars we had in Britain, I sometimes think he's looking for a car that'll give him a ride like a bike.  I have to admit, a road trip with him driving is very, very exciting.

[MisterNoisy]

Maybe you are a motorcycle person...

I love Moto GP but Righ would love being in Moto GP.  He's the motorbike guy, not me.  He gave it all up when he married me, though, and started driving cars, instead.  Considering the sort of cars we had in Britain, I sometimes think he's looking for a car that'll give him a ride like a bike.  I have to admit, a road trip with him driving is very, very exciting.

There's always these.

[Strazos]

Are those even street legal?

1.9g on the skidpad is fucking Obscene.

[MisterNoisy]

Are those even street legal?

1.9g on the skidpad is fucking Obscene.

They're legally treated as motorcycles, so yeah.  Helmets may be required where you live though.

[Pococurante]

(what's with the Pontiac h8? :(

They are old fucks who cannot accomodate change.  That, and GM deserves h8 for fiddling while Toyota shows them why the GM of the 1960s was not unique.

But mainly because they are old fucks.  "What's this NEW THING?! <SLAM goes teh door>"

My love affair with Pontiac started and ended with my first car, a 1974 Grand Prix with a simple transmission matrix upgrade.  Car lasted me well into the early eighties until I wrapped it around a tree, not to mention the Ford pickup between me and afore mentioned tree.

The bitch is back.  Fuck the saki weenies and saurkraut suckers that know no better than to embrace the kneepads of the last decade.

Buying poorly made products is always a bad idea.  It erodes the process.

Clearly you are a young pup who has no sense of what the early age of sports coupe was all about.  You think the early jags and spyders were computer-calibrated pseduo-leather excuses for a Lexii.  Come back to the roots.

McQueen didn't get his testicles wrapped in a bunch because the soft panels rattled when he downshifted.  They were *supposed* to bounce off the rivets into his latest baby's lap.

Weak.  The current generatiion is weak and whines too much.

[Ralence]

  As for the original post;  I just bought my mother a 2005 Toyota Camry last spring, out the door brand new for $17200.  It's a 4-cylinder, but it's really peppy surprisingly enough, the car is a fantastic ride, the MPG and comfort levels are really unbelievable, especially for the price, not to mention the resale value is really strong.

  It keeps you in the $15k range, and picking up a returned lease, or a demo might get you right into that neighborhood without a problem.  I honestly expected to pay 20k+ for one when I started shopping, but after I actually sat down with a dealer and worked the numbers, it's ridiculously well priced.  They don't even "option" all the things that I've always thought were "options", A/C, power windows/locks, cruise, the whole funky seat with 8 bajillion settings, it's all standard.

  Yeah, I know, I sound like teh mole here, but I really was impressed with the car.

  And I drive an 01 Wrangler, so that might account for my high opinion of the ride handling, since I don't HAVE to wear a seatbelt just to keep me from being thrown from the vehicle.

[Toast]

The joys of Wrangler ownership (had one in college)
1. Downshifting on the highway just to hold speed when you encounter a 5 degree "hill"
2. Dealing with the #$@# soft top.
3. Having people constantly try to steal stuff from it
4. Rattles, squeaks, rust
5. Waking up at 6 am to a summer thunderstorm and running outside in underwear to try and pull the jeep around to shelter
6. Bouncing around like having relations on a trampoline
7. Sweaty sweaty back (I live in Austin)
8. The wind.
9. Having a bee or wasp land on you at a stop light.
10. Wintertime

There are definitely some plusses. Summer nights are great. And, in college girls really did like it.

Now, I drive a Honda Accord. I love it. Great car.

[Nebu]

Buying poorly made products is always a bad idea.  It erodes the process.

Clearly you are a young pup who has no sense of what the early age of sports coupe was all about.  You think the early jags and spyders were computer-calibrated pseduo-leather excuses for a Lexii.  Come back to the roots.

McQueen didn't get his testicles wrapped in a bunch because the soft panels rattled when he downshifted.  They were *supposed* to bounce off the rivets into his latest baby's lap.

Weak.  The current generatiion is weak and whines too much.

Thanks.  It's been 20 years since I've been called a young pup!

I've owned a 64 impala SS, GTO's from 66-70, and more than my share of 65-73 mustangs.  After about 1972, I lost faith in the quality and performance of domestic cars and opted instead for the better engineering tolerances of foreign.  As I said in a separate post above, it's really a taste thing.  I prefer the "tight" feel of foreign cars since my first datsun and porsche in the late 70's.

If Americans held the domestic automotive manufacturers to higher standards, we'd see better quality domestic cars.  That's the thrust of my statement.  There was a time when America was a leader in the automotive industry.  Now we make nice pickups and minivans.

[Simond]

See if you can find an old Toyota pickup for your cash.

[Roac]

If Americans held the domestic automotive manufacturers to higher standards, we'd see better quality domestic cars.  That's the thrust of my statement.  There was a time when America was a leader in the automotive industry.  Now we make nice pickups and minivans.

American carsa re purposefully less reliable than foreign ones.  Normally, Americans (with money) like to swap out cars every few years, unlike foreign drivers who will hold onto cars longer.  When the money is being made on a lease, there's no incentive to have a car run for 200k miles.  It's not like Ford or GM make money on second or third sales.

[Alkiera]

If Americans held the domestic automotive manufacturers to higher standards, we'd see better quality domestic cars.  That's the thrust of my statement.  There was a time when America was a leader in the automotive industry.  Now we make nice pickups and minivans.

American carsa re purposefully less reliable than foreign ones.  Normally, Americans (with money) like to swap out cars every few years, unlike foreign drivers who will hold onto cars longer.  When the money is being made on a lease, there's no incentive to have a car run for 200k miles.  It's not like Ford or GM make money on second or third sales.

They might make money if the car's value didn't drop 25-33% when you drove it off the new car lot.  Resale value on most American Domestics is low, while foreign cars manage to keep their value much longer.  Because, you know, they actually keep running for much longer(like my 17 year old Civic that still runs like a top).  They engineer a lack of longevity, because they want to be able to sell you another new car around the time you've paid off the last one.

Alkiera

[Strazos]

I'd be interested in how much work that Honda has needed.

[Righ]

American carsa re purposefully less reliable than foreign ones.  Normally, Americans (with money) like to swap out cars every few years, unlike foreign drivers who will hold onto cars longer.  When the money is being made on a lease, there's no incentive to have a car run for 200k miles.  It's not like Ford or GM make money on second or third sales.

The primary problem with this is that its not a case of all Americans driving domestic cars, and all foreigners driving foreign cars. Some of the largest car manufacturing plants in America are run by foreign car manufacturers who sell the output domestically, and there's a roaring trade on automotive imports. Excluding trucks, which a sizable proportion of sales are made through corporate purchases, the top sellers in 2005 were Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Honda Civic, Nissan Altima and Hyundai Sonata. If American car companies still have a philosophy of making shitty cars that fall to bits faster because its what the American buyer wants (which I doubt they have with today's competition and lemon laws) then it's not working out for them is it?

Sales growth for 2005 went like this: Toyota +9.7%, Nissan +9.2%, Hyundai +8.7%, Honda +4.9%, Subaru +4.6%, BMW +3.5%, Kia +2.1%.

No domestic manufacturers saw an increase in sales. Domestic sales overall declined 3% with the rate of decline increasing from start to end of 2005. Truck sales were in decline, SUV sales were in decline, and foreign car makers have successfully set their sights on those markets as well as minivans.

It's not like Ford or GM are making profits at all. The recent news from Ford wasn't so great for their employees, was it? Apparently FMC is the only part of the business that is sustainable, and they are financing more and more foreign vehicles themselves.

[Pococurante]

Thanks.  It's been 20 years since I've been called a young pup!

I've owned a 64 impala SS, GTO's from 66-70, and more than my share of 65-73 mustangs.  After about 1972, I lost faith in the quality and performance of domestic cars and opted instead for the better engineering tolerances of foreign.  As I said in a separate post above, it's really a taste thing.  I prefer the "tight" feel of foreign cars since my first datsun and porsche in the late 70's.

If Americans held the domestic automotive manufacturers to higher standards, we'd see better quality domestic cars.  That's the thrust of my statement.  There was a time when America was a leader in the automotive industry.  Now we make nice pickups and minivans.

You're welcome. Pup.   So after four decades of domestic ownership can we agree there *is* no golden age.  Which really was my point.  We buy cars for less endangerment than we give for the average media recoding device - see the idiot thread on the latest TV/boob-box replacement.  Why?  Becuase it feels well enough.  I spent a good part of my youth helping the old man recreate his Fiat envy.  I'm old enough now to understand it never had anything to do with machinery.  So up the pups that ignore stylish sheet metal because it doesn't feel like a Honda Accord.  My ex-wife drives a Honda - I skate on a sports car.  It may rattle, it definitely rolls.  And it is sexy to drive.

It's not supposed to make sense.  Sense is an alimony payment.  And alimony is for control freak bitches that never learned a lick of Hawthorne.

[Righ]

I've driven up Hawthorn Hill and through Hawthorn Bend, but Brands doesn't open up the full circuit very often.