The Bush Speech

[HaemishM]

Depsite what Bush and the rest of his administration would like you to think, the Iraqi people ARE NOT CHILDREN.

Training wheels... that's the most condescending shit I think I've ever heard someone say about another populace. My fucking god, there are adults over there, who know a whole fucklot more about their country, culture and customs than we do. Why do we insist on treating them as if they cannot determine their own fate? Isn't that what democracy is?

It's that kind of patronizing shit that the Arab world objects to. It's holier than thou self-righteousness and it hinders the process.

Without being able to change their own laws without our approval, that's not sovereignity, that's colonialism. We might as well make Iraq a U.S. Territory like Guam or Puerto Rico. That seems to be about the regard we hold the country in.

[cevik]

Agreed, but I don't see THEM here bitching at every turn.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-05-25-report-alqaeda_x.htm">Then you don't read enough.

[Dark Vengeance]

Depsite what Bush and the rest of his administration would like you to think, the Iraqi people ARE NOT CHILDREN.

Training wheels... that's the most condescending shit I think I've ever heard someone say about another populace.

Actually I was saying it about a newly formed government, not the Iraqi people. I thought it fit quite nicely with the idea that we are looking out for their government and offering a guiding hand while it is still "in its infancy", so to speak.

My fucking god, there are adults over there, who know a whole fucklot more about their country, culture and customs than we do. Why do we insist on treating them as if they cannot determine their own fate? Isn't that what democracy is?

Where is the US insisting on changing their customs or culture? It's not as though we've introduced the Playboy channel and constant re-runs of Friends on Iraqi TV.

We are changing their form of government...radically. Just a thought that we may want to oversee the process in the beginning, to make sure things don't get ugly.

It's that kind of patronizing shit that the Arab world objects to. It's holier than thou self-righteousness and it hinders the process.

So what should we do? Give them the keys to the car, total power over all aspects of government, and then just pull out?

We've created a power vacuum there. If we give them total power and walk away, not only do we leave them with relatively non-existant military and law enforcement....but we also open the door for the members of the interim government to try and seize power, provided that one of the insurgent groups doesn't do it first.

Without being able to change their own laws without our approval, that's not sovereignity, that's colonialism. We might as well make Iraq a U.S. Territory like Guam or Puerto Rico. That seems to be about the regard we hold the country in.

Do we want a stable government that is going to endure, or do we just want to watch Iraq become something worse than what it was? I'm inclined to go with the former....and as much as you may disagree with it, they need our help to achieve that. Not because they aren't rational, intelligent adults, but because this is a new form of government for them....and in the early stages, it will be extremely fragile.

Bring the noise.
Cheers..............

[HaemishM]

Sure it will be fragile.

But what happens if the first act of the duly elected government is to tell America and the coalition to take its toys and go the fuck home?

My point is, if we don't let the provisional government even have the power to change its laws or create new ones without our approval, what really has changed?

[Logain]

But what happens if the first act of the duly elected government is to tell America and the coalition to take its toys and go the fuck home?

Then we'll "go the fuck home." I don't have a link but an article was posted here a while back where it was stated that if they told us to leave, then we would.

Whether you believe that or not is up to you. However, it is the apparent intention of our government to leave if told to do so.

I would find the article but I have to go to work.

[Arcadian Del Sol]

When the transition takes place, the networks will be scrambling for news because there wont be anything to report.

...would that be because the transition was smooth, or because it was a farce?

Because it will be a non-event, and in hindsight, this thread will be the best rewrite of Chicken Little in a long time.

[Mesozoic]

When the transition takes place, the networks will be scrambling for news because there wont be anything to report.

...would that be because the transition was smooth, or because it was a farce?

Because it will be a non-event, and in hindsight, this thread will be the best rewrite of Chicken Little in a long time.

AGAIN, are you saying that Iraqis will take over and everything will go smoothly, or that the US will give up little if any actual control and if will be a non-event because nothing really happened that day?  I'm just trying to understand your point.

[Arcadian Del Sol]

When the transition takes place, the networks will be scrambling for news because there wont be anything to report.

...would that be because the transition was smooth, or because it was a farce?

Because it will be a non-event, and in hindsight, this thread will be the best rewrite of Chicken Little in a long time.

AGAIN, are you saying that Iraqis will take over and everything will go smoothly, or that the US will give up little if any actual control and if will be a non-event because nothing really happened that day?  I'm just trying to understand your point.

I'll try again, then. My point is that this thread is chock full of O NOES TEH SKY IS FALLING when whats going to happen is this:

1. We hand over the keys to the snowball stand to Iraq
2. Iraq pays the utility bills to keep the ice cold until they hire a manager
3. A manager will be hired and he will sell snowballs to thirsty softball teams
4. PROFIT

Now, if somewhere between stages 3 and 4, the manager decides that the next big thing in snowballs is urine flavor, then step 4 probably doesn't happen. I'm not sure to what extent the United States would be responsible for the capabilities of an elected Iraqi government - probably no more or less responsible than France was for the re-election of George Washington. Remember: We overthrew Britain because France gave us guns, and a temporary governing body. When the war was over, France was no longer directly responsible for whatever mess the newly liberated American Colonies got themselves into - they stuck around until Cornwallis surrendered, and then left with best wishes. Thats what we will do in Iraq. Okay, Big Bad Government is gone, here's your temporary council, Best Wishes for the Future. Call us.

At which point, Iraq becomes responsible for the future of Iraq.

And guess what: nothing will happen. The sky wont fall, Iraq wont turn into a gigantic bomb of terror, and despite all the noise from the friction of ten thousand Democratic hands wringing in despair on Capitol Hill, it will not drown out the celebration of the Iraqi people when they elect their first leader in almost EVER.

let me know if that is still unclear.

[Mesozoic]

So that would put you in the "Modern Iraqis as 18th-century Americans" camp.  Good luck with that.

You're not worried about the influx of radical elements from the rest of the Middle East which is already underway?  

You're not worried about the perceived legitimacy of a US-installed temporary government, or the permanent government that they install, in the eyes of a populace largely hostile to the American "occupation"?

You're not worried about the reaction of the US to the possible implementation of backwards or nondemocratic laws such as the suppression of the media, the marginalization of women, state-mandated religion, or, worse yet, Sharia Law?

You're not worried about the potential for a Shi'ite tyranny over religious minorities?

You're not worried about the potential for a Saddam Ver 2.0 to rise to power after the US/UN leaves?

You're not worried about the way the invasion is perceived across the Middle East and the effect it has on terrorism?

[daveNYC]

I don't get it.  Iraq is a mess right now, but as soon as we hand things over it will be fine?

Twenty bucks says you're wrong.

[schild]

$40 bucks says we need to steal all the oil we can and get the fuck outta there. It'll never happen, it's completely pussified, but I'd like them to start killing themselves again rather than us. Did I ever mention I'd make a HORRIBLE politician?

[Arcadian Del Sol]

So that would put you in the "Modern Iraqis as 18th-century Americans" camp.  Good luck with that.

You're not worried about the influx of radical elements from the rest of the Middle East which is already underway?  

You're not worried about the perceived legitimacy of a US-installed temporary government, or the permanent government that they install, in the eyes of a populace largely hostile to the American "occupation"?

You're not worried about the reaction of the US to the possible implementation of backwards or nondemocratic laws such as the suppression of the media, the marginalization of women, state-mandated religion, or, worse yet, Sharia Law?

You're not worried about the potential for a Shi'ite tyranny over religious minorities?

You're not worried about the potential for a Saddam Ver 2.0 to rise to power after the US/UN leaves?

You're not worried about the way the invasion is perceived across the Middle East and the effect it has on terrorism?

I'm not worried about the acorn that struck you on the head, no.

[Mesozoic]

Who are you, and what have you done with Arc?

[Arcadian Del Sol]

Who are you, and what have you done with Arc?

translation: "I'm outta gas."

[Mesozoic]

OK, now you're just channelling Boog.

Whats really sad is that this discussion closely parallels Bush's position.

[schild]

Channeling Boog is very dangerous. Worst case, Boog, devourer of worlds, will appear. Best case, Arc passes out of exhaustion.

[Dark Vengeance]

You're not worried about the influx of radical elements from the rest of the Middle East which is already underway?

 

This HAS BEEN underway for quite some time. Training an Iraqi military and police force can only help the situation. This is also a reason why we will have emergency authority over the army during the transition....we want both armies to work together, under one command, to put a lid on this situation.

You're not worried about the perceived legitimacy of a US-installed temporary government, or the permanent government that they install, in the eyes of a populace largely hostile to the American "occupation"?

Could their perception of the interim government be viewed as any WORSE than the current CPA? I doubt it.

After the elections, they still don't perceive their government to be legitimate, then that's their problem. After all, they will be the ones electing them. Worst case scenario is that they bond with American Democrats, who haven't pereceived their government to be legitimate for nearly 4 years.

You're not worried about the reaction of the US to the possible implementation of backwards or nondemocratic laws such as the suppression of the media, the marginalization of women, state-mandated religion, or, worse yet, Sharia Law?

You're not worried about the potential for a Shi'ite tyranny over religious minorities?

This is the reason that Iraq will not be able to pass laws without our approval during the transition. What they do afterward is up to them.

You're not worried about the potential for a Saddam Ver 2.0 to rise to power after the US/UN leaves?

Which is precisely why we can't simply walk away now. Keep in mind that we are training their military and law enforcement. The idea is to leave the new government with the capability to defend its own sovereignty.

You're not worried about the way the invasion is perceived across the Middle East and the effect it has on terrorism?

It's a little late to start getting worried about that....the bell has already been rung. We're past the point of worry, and moving on to the "what are we going to do about it" stage.

Bring the noise.
Cheers.............

[daveNYC]

What's your opinion of all the armed militias that are going to be existance when we turn over the government?

[Dark Vengeance]

What's your opinion of all the armed militias that are going to be existance when we turn over the government?

My opinion is that they are a bunch of doo-doo heads.

Seriously, though...."armed militias" exist there already. We are currently calling them "Iraqi insurgents" and "foreign terrorists".

We are also going to have troops in Iraq for at least another year, and aren't expected to leave until an Iraqi army exists that can defend the country. As of June 30th, we will still be the primary player in terms of security in Iraq.

The "militias" are merely trying to make a grab for power....that's why the situation is called a "power vacuum". Everyone who desires power attempts to rush in to fill it.

That's why we aren't giving them total control on June 30th....we are helping this new government to stand on it's own. Not just in terms of their governmental processes, but in terms of developing their military as well.

Bring the noise.
Cheers..............

[Mesozoic]

Dark, all of your answers are the same.  
"Yeah, its pretty fucked up!"

(This HAS BEEN underway for quite some time.....Could their perception of the interim government be viewed as any WORSE......What they do afterward is up to them.....we can't simply walk away now.....It's a little late to start getting worried about that....)

Yes Dark, it is fucked up.  Arcadianaloo, or whatever, either doesn't see that or has decided to just fuck with us.

[Arcadian Del Sol]

You're responding to comments I'm not making. I'm not saying that everything is going great and that Iraq will be a freedom loving outpost for liberty and democracy.

I'm saying that we WILL hand over the keys, that the handover will be uneventful, and we'll all wake up the following morning to a bright sunshiney day whose only difference from the day before will be the fact that we dont have the keys to Iraq on our keychain any longer.

I dont think we'll get our security deposit back because our puppy peed on the carpet - but once we hand over the keys, somebody else's name is on the lease, and they get to pick what color they want when they order the new carpet.

If its hot pink, it might be ugly - but at least they get to pick what they want.

[Mesozoic]

You're responding to comments I'm not making.

Heres the Cliff Notes version:

You said everything would be OK.  

I asked about a host of serious existing problems or potential problems.

You responded with an insult.

Dark actually responded to my points.

I responded to Dark.

You re-stated your original point again.

Interesting that, more than simply not seeing any looming problems in Iraq, you consider the very suggestion of potential problems to be an over-reaction.

I'm not saying that everything is going great and that Iraq will be a freedom loving outpost for liberty and democracy.

Neither is Bush...anymore.  Of course, he hasn't really brought up the WMD thing in a while either.

[daveNYC]

I dont think we'll get our security deposit back because our puppy peed on the carpet - but once we hand over the keys, somebody else's name is on the lease, and they get to pick what color they want when they order the new carpet.

If its hot pink, it might be ugly - but at least they get to pick what they want.

That's great, except I'm thinking that they'll probably invite all their thug friends over for a housewarming party, break out the windows, and start shooting at the neighbor's houses.

Or whatever stupid-ass metaphor you want to use.

[Arcadian Del Sol]

I dont think we'll get our security deposit back because our puppy peed on the carpet - but once we hand over the keys, somebody else's name is on the lease, and they get to pick what color they want when they order the new carpet.

If its hot pink, it might be ugly - but at least they get to pick what they want.

That's great, except I'm thinking that they'll probably invite all their thug friends over for a housewarming party, break out the windows, and start shooting at the neighbor's houses.

Or whatever stupid-ass metaphor you want to use.

Its no more or less stupid than every point you've made in this thread, zipper-neck.

In other news, the new interim president is one that the US led coalition didn't want, and one that thinks the US did a pretty lousy job of managing post-war Iraq. In a related story, the movie Day After Tomorrow did not come true.

[Tebonas]

The day after tomorrow was no documentation, the fact that the cold air miraculously wasn't able to go down the chimney but the smog from the fire went up should have clued you in on that, Arc.

But how exactly is that story related anyway?

[Mesozoic]

...one that thinks the US did a pretty lousy job of managing post-war Iraq.

Thats like saying "the Islamic one with the facial hair."  CNN describes the position as "largely ceremonial," BTW.

[Arcadian Del Sol]

The day after tomorrow was no documentation, the fact that the cold air miraculously wasn't able to go down the chimney but the smog from the fire went up should have clued you in on that, Arc.

But how exactly is that story related anyway?

read the thread. I'm done with it, but your answers lie within.

[Arcadian Del Sol]

...one that thinks the US did a pretty lousy job of managing post-war Iraq.

Thats like saying "the Islamic one with the facial hair."  CNN describes the position as "largely ceremonial," BTW.

see this is exactly what I was trying to refer to in this thread - the making up of data to create a pandemonious story out of a non-eventful one. Whats the polling data that makes it so obvious to everyone but me that everybody in IRaq with a beard thinks the US is doing a horrible job. I guess what you're data is proving is that women universally approve of the US post-war management?

respond if you like - I'm on other topics/threads this week.

[Mesozoic]

You're still not making any sense.  You seem fixated on a date without considering the larger problems in Iraq.

[Ironwood]

You're still not making any sense.  You seem fixated on a date without considering the larger problems in Iraq.

I think that was his point.

[Mesozoic]

No, I don't think so.

[Ironwood]

No, I don't think so.

Hmmm, that was what I got out of it.

Media kicks up a storm about the handover date.  'It's going to be terrible, there's going to be trouble, fire and brimstone'.

Handover date comes and goes.  Things just as fucked up over there as they always have been and always will.

Nothing changes instantly due to a date.

That's what I got out of his shadowy ramblings.

I mean, some of you here are worried about various things in connection with the Middle East.  That's fine.  You're Americans and therefore the first target.  You're right to worry.

However, worrying that it's all going to kick off on this certain day is a little silly.  As Boog would say, it changes nothing;  the guys over there either hate you or don't;  they're either actively planning your deaths or not.

What the hell difference is the handover going to make ?

Arcadian ISN'T saying that everything is going to magically turn out right on that day.  He's just saying that it's not going to change anything important as far as it affects a bunch of guys on a message board.

In my opinion anyway - I dislike putting words in his mouth.
Feel free to say "That may be what you got out of it, but it's fucking bullshit you fucking euro-fag".  I mean, I'm easy.


On a totally unrelated note; How's the wife doing, Arc ?

[Dark Vengeance]

Arcadian ISN'T saying that everything is going to magically turn out right on that day.  He's just saying that it's not going to change anything important as far as it affects a bunch of guys on a message board.

In any case, 22 days and counting.

Bring the noise.
Cheers............

[Mesozoic]

Media kicks up a storm about the handover date. 'It's going to be terrible, there's going to be trouble, fire and brimstone'.

People worry about it getting worse shortly after the handover, or they worry about whether or not the handover will be real in any sense.  Arc doesn't have any comment on whether or not the handover will have any meaning, and he seems to be confining his comments to the 24-hour period following some kind of June 30th ceremony, at which point nothing will really have had time to happen, and he won't elaborate on the longer term picture.   So yeah, even if all of our guys jumped back into their Hummers and headed full speed towards The Fuck Out, it would take a day or so for things to really hit the fan.  Arc gets to be right because Arc isn't saying anything.

[Zaphkiel]

I don't get it.  Iraq is a mess right now, but as soon as we hand things over it will be fine?

Twenty bucks says you're wrong.

    As soon as we hand things over, things will be fine FOR THE US.  We get to be in charge, and control everything, without looking so much like an invader.  That's why the date is fixed in stone.  We have to look good on paper asap.  There's an election coming up.