Hunters ftw

[Alkiera]

That might go for alliance, but horde side shamans are as common as rogues so "any healer" class doesn't cut it anymore.  Warlocks, Priests and Druids pretty much have open doors into any high end guild, at least on my server.

By the time someone is able to get to 60, the warlock part of that will no longer be the case.  Right now warlocks are a dime a dozen in 40-49 (thanks to all the "ZOMG TOO UBEAR!!" posts), in a month you'll be overrun with warlocks in the 60s bracket.

8 of the 15 alliance in AB last night were warlocks (seriously)..

How well do you do against hunters in pvp?  I'm admittedly only 24, so don't have some of the nicer talent bonuses, and only the first 3 pets... but while it's not a terribly unbalanced fight, I've found I tend to lose to them, even if a few levels lower than me. (I probably just suck)

Alkiera

[Merusk]

That might go for alliance, but horde side shamans are as common as rogues so "any healer" class doesn't cut it anymore.  Warlocks, Priests and Druids pretty much have open doors into any high end guild, at least on my server.

By the time someone is able to get to 60, the warlock part of that will no longer be the case.  Right now warlocks are a dime a dozen in 40-49 (thanks to all the "ZOMG TOO UBEAR!!" posts), in a month you'll be overrun with warlocks in the 60s bracket.

8 of the 15 alliance in AB last night were warlocks (seriously)..

How well do you do against hunters in pvp?  I'm admittedly only 24, so don't have some of the nicer talent bonuses, and only the first 3 pets... but while it's not a terribly unbalanced fight, I've found I tend to lose to them, even if a few levels lower than me. (I probably just suck)

Alkiera

Summon succubus, Seduce Hunter, fear pet, get into Hunter's melee and startup with the dots, then fear kite.  If they've got a BW pet I dunno what to tell you, but it eats Marks/ Survivial hunters for lunch which folks seems to be switching over to.*  I don't think BW is a dispellable buff, so you couldn't have your felhunter eat it.  I suppose at that point it's use your pet for a HP bar if you've got the talents, and hope your Dots kill the hunter before the hunter's pet kills you.  (Again, get in close to the hunter. The pet may be doing 50% of the hunter's damage but a lot panic when they can't use thier bows.. thus the constant whines that "OMG growl should work in PvP!)

* The 'common' perception on hunter boards right now is that 'OMG BM sux!!1! onle nubs spec bw' simply because pets don't scale with gear.   Well, that's true and all but yor BW pet still eats clothies alive in PvP, dumbasses.

[Righ]

Here's one of the better approaches that good warlocks have used against my hunter:

Sac void, fel dom, summon succy, charm hunter, fear pet, soul link, move to deadzone, nuke.

Hunters are not the easiest class to PvP with (but one the most fun) so you'll only need to do this on one hunter in a thousand. Just fear their pet, move to their deadzone and drop a DoT on them, and most will be too flustered to react properly.

[Righ]

Beastial wrath hunters use fast attacking (therfore low damage per hit) pets, drop curse of weakness on the pet and its pathetic. BW hunters should be the last thing warlocks worry about, although they bitch about them all the time. Priests are the ones taht need to worry about BW. BW is the priest killer spec. Survival hunters are the most dangerous, particularly if they have epic gear.

[kaid]

Using a succy against a hunter is a good tactic but risky. If the hunter sees you first generally they will open with a multishot which has the potential to just about one shot kill your succy. I have accidentally ganked succubus that were invis before with multishot.

Also generally if a warlock is up and I can actually see the succy the boar charges the ass slapper and she dies almost instantly and then boar goes on the warlock.

Hunters bane is rogues and warriors. Warlocks are actually very nasty for warriors you may not survive the fight but chances are the warrior won't either.

Kaid

[Righ]

Using a succy against a hunter is a good tactic but risky. If the hunter sees you first generally they will open with a multishot which has the potential to just about one shot kill your succy.

That's why you start with VW out. With fel dom you can get the succy out in the multishot cooldown.

[Merusk]

I see rogues bitching about hunters all the time, which I don't understand because they eat me up.  If I get the drop on them, sure, I've got a shot.  But most often I'm occupied with another target and they come up, cheapshot, then cut me to ribbons.  I suppose the ones bitching are expecting some sort of toe-to-toe melee fight. You know, the ones who bitch when warriors get off a 2500+ mortal strike on them after being charged because they weren't sneaking.

Didn't know that about BW hunters, Righ.  I've never played with one myself (always been marks) so I didn't think about it.  Makes a lot of sense, though.   I also didn't realize Succys were so frail.  I'll have to start taking them out when I see them. ( I usually ignore all pets and just go straight for the player.)

[Dren]

Succies and imps are paper thin.  You can take them out in 2-3 shots normally even without crits.

[Righ]

On hunter specs:

As far as I'm concerned, beastmaster is still better for solo play, and best for levelling up. For most hunters, marksmanship is what to focus on, until the point where you get to near 400 agility. At that point survival with lightning reflexes will make the ranged damage on par with marksman, and passing up the huge melee benefits of the survival tree isn't something you want to do. Survival hunter is funny as hell to play in PvP, especially when you've got a big two-hander, as nobody expects your melee critical strikes to be so frequent (> 50%) or extreme. BW is a one-trick show, and slowly (they aint bright) people are catching on about how to deal with it.

If you do go beastmaster, take the road less travelled - go for as slow a cat as you can find - Jaguero Stalker is ideal at 2.0s. Not only are slow attacks bigger hits (which helps against armored opponents and attack debuffs) but the cat stealth attack (prowl) is a single hit multiplier, so you get the best bonus. Coupled with the beast trinket from the level 50 quest (certain crit = x 2), unleashed fury (x 1.2), orc racial (x 1.05), and BW (x 1.5), the cat pounce (x 1.5) can do a huge damage opener (5.67 x base attack), and from the certain frenzy off the crit follow up with hideous subsequent damage. More burst damage than survival or marksman hunter can do (since the beastmaster is also shooting too) even with whatever pets they bring, but as I said, relies a little too heavily one one trick for most PvP.

[Morfiend]

I see rogues bitching about hunters all the time, which I don't understand because they eat me up.  If I get the drop on them, sure, I've got a shot.

I am a rogue and I despise hunters. I hate them with such a passion. Let me explain.

In order to have about a 50-50 chance vs a hunter, a rogue must get the drop on one. And like I said even then its VERY iffy that the rogue can win. A good hunter will scatter shot, move out to range, feign death and drop a freezing trap, then concussion shot, then aim shot. By this time the rogue has around half life, is slowed, and the hunter is standing on a trap. By the time the rogue reaches the hunter, his scatter shot should be almost up, so even if the rogue avoides the trap, the hunter can scatter him again soon, and probably make him wander in to the trap, if he does, its gg.

Now if a hunter gets the jump on a rogue, the rogue has about a 5-10% chance of winning.

I think the majority is the hate come from the fact that it is so frustrating to be kited by a good hunter. A rogue can burn every cooldown, and use every trick, and its still a very one sided battle. I consider myself a very competent PVPer. I have a lot of experiance playing my rogue in pvp, and a well played hunter just has to many counters for rogues.

[Righ]

In order to have about a 50-50 chance vs a hunter, a rogue must get the drop on one.

See, that's kind of the point in being a rogue, you're supposed to be picking your fights. If you burn moves with longer cooldowns, you should have much more than a 50% chance of winning against a similarly skilled hunter. And hunters are in fact supposed to be the foil for rogues.

Saying "if the hunter gets the jump on you" is kind of like a hunter whining about impotence in melee. Use stealth more, IMO. :P

[Merusk]

Yeah, the rogues who tear me up do the following:

Wait until I'm engaged in wtfpwning a clothie.  If I'm on defense, my trap is at the flag, not at my feet, use detect traps to make sure. My detect-stealth is only about 3-4m AND only works in about a 180 arc, so if you come up from behind I'm focusing on the cloth I'm hosed.

  If you're cautious wait until I move, the cloth inevitably will charge me if they're competent, so I'll move eventually.  When I do, it's cheapshot (2pts) with crippling poision (ain't running from that) and do the goddamned run-through circle-strafe dance if you don't get the kidney shot off when I blow my trinket.  Your damage is from the SSs you're pouring on to get more points, not the auto attack so get as big a weapon as you can. If you don't pop kidney, then get out of my LOS and I can't scatter you, plus I'm too damn slow to turn fast with the crippling on me.  

If it's two rogues working in tandem, I'm usually dead before I can even swing around to TRY and scatter shot one.

[Morfiend]

Yeah, the rogues who tear me up do the following:

Wait until I'm engaged in wtfpwning a clothie.  If I'm on defense, my trap is at the flag, not at my feet, use detect traps to make sure. My detect-stealth is only about 3-4m AND only works in about a 180 arc, so if you come up from behind I'm focusing on the cloth I'm hosed.

  If you're cautious wait until I move, the cloth inevitably will charge me if they're competent, so I'll move eventually.  When I do, it's cheapshot (2pts) with crippling poision (ain't running from that) and do the goddamned run-through circle-strafe dance if you don't get the kidney shot off when I blow my trinket.  Your damage is from the SSs you're pouring on to get more points, not the auto attack so get as big a weapon as you can. If you don't pop kidney, then get out of my LOS and I can't scatter you, plus I'm too damn slow to turn fast with the crippling on me.  

If it's two rogues working in tandem, I'm usually dead before I can even swing around to TRY and scatter shot one.

Trust me, I know HOW to take out hunters. But what I showing is that the majority of battles with hunters, the fight is defenetly in their favor. I didnt even mention flare, and hunters marks. Also, the majority of your examples are a rogue winning in 2v1. That shows the imbalance. Basically If I play my character at 100% effectivness and a hunter plays his at 100% effectivness, hunter wins. Thats what im showing. Its a good thing for me there are a lot of people who cant play at 100% at all times.

[Righ]

Hunters are supposed to be the foil for rogues, especially ones that are hanging around unstealthed at distance. Did you think there was supposed to be a class that could kill everything else with impunity? Like Blizzard say every other day - it isn't imbalanced, because the game is not balanced for each class to have equal opportunity against every other class in one on one combat.

[Morfiend]

Hunters are supposed to be the foil for rogues, especially ones that are hanging around unstealthed at distance. Did you think there was supposed to be a class that could kill everything else with impunity? Like Blizzard say every other day - it isn't imbalanced, because the game is not balanced for each class to have equal opportunity against every other class in one on one combat.

And hunters are the counter to about 75% of the classes. They are overpowered however you want to spin it.

[Righ]

Okay. Poor rogues, its such a tough class.

[Phred]

On hunter specs:

If you do go beastmaster, take the road less travelled - go for as slow a cat as you can find - Jaguero Stalker is ideal at 2.0s. Not only are slow attacks bigger hits (which helps against armored opponents and attack debuffs) but the cat stealth attack (prowl) is a single hit multiplier, so you get the best bonus. Coupled with the beast trinket from the level 50 quest (certain crit = x 2), unleashed fury (x 1.2), orc racial (x 1.05), and BW (x 1.5), the cat pounce (x 1.5) can do a huge damage opener (5.67 x base attack), and from the certain frenzy off the crit follow up with hideous subsequent damage. More burst damage than survival or marksman hunter can do (since the beastmaster is also shooting too) even with whatever pets they bring, but as I said, relies a little too heavily one one trick for most PvP.

Alternately you can check out the boar. The new boar charge ability has a huge atk bonus on first hit and a stun as well. Boars have much higher AC than cats too so can take a lot more of a beating. My boar currently has 6400 armor, more than some warriors in our BWL capable guild. That's with natural armor 10 though but still a lot more than a cat is going to have.

The only problem with boars is there's a huge level gap where you can't find any. There's tons down below L30 but none until 48-50 and none after that. The only high level boars are the gold ones in Blasted Lands and one rare as hell 50 that spawns there as well.

[Ironwood]

As you might imagine, I disagree.  Our Burst damage is mitigated by armor and avoidance, both of which are problems for us.  In that sense, casters are better than us.

Our stealth... Well, it doesn't work.  It really, really doesn't.  Hunters Mark is awful against us, unless you're constantly popping the Resto potions.  Hunters pets, through a bizarre selection of bugs, can see us no bother.  Vanish is just ASS.  Seriously, it doesn't get rid of the mark and it doesn't actually work half the time.  The fact that AoE pops us right out of it makes it fairly useless all around.  When they say 'Improved Version of Stealth' in the ToolTip, what they actually mean is 'Squeal Piggy, Right In Your GloryHole'.  It's no bloody good.

Our low armor values mean that we cannot stand up to a straight fight, but our bugged and useless skills mean we cannot get out of said fight quick enough.  Further, you simply don't ever ever ever ever ever want to try dogding an MS specced warrior.  He will cut your fucking head off.

With the improvements to Warlocks (where the hell did that new confusing blast thingy come from ) we're now fairly low on the rankings.  I am FULLY AWARE that this is because we were the most balanced and 'complete' class out of the box.  I Know.  I agree that we were.  The trouble is that the more you lot have improved the less complete we've looked.

I can't address your experiences.  I really can't.  But I am tempted to think that it's probably more at 60 that I'm getting humped.

Sap is still fucking great though.

[Der Helm]

Sap is still fucking great though.

/sap
Followed by
/dance

=

[cevik]

Sap is still fucking great though.

/sap
Followed by
/dance

=

That's not nearly as good as my old favorite:

/sap
Followed by
/dance

Followed by

/seduced

Followed by
/sbolt

Followed by DoTs

Followed by death..

Warlock FTW..

(yes, I actually had a rogue sap in and try to cap the flag I was guarding last night)..

[Der Helm]

Did I missread that, or can you controll your pets while sapped ?

Never noticed that.

[Righ]

Our stealth... Well, it doesn't work.  It really, really doesn't.  Hunters

(chopped mid sentence for effect)

Rogue stealth works wonderfully against everybody but a hunter. That's not really broken with the exception of the pet. The pet bug is fucking horrible and needs to be fixed badly, and yes, I'm fed up with it on my rogue too. It's actually a good deal worse than you imply - the pet on aggressive will attack you from 30 yards out, and the hunter can actually assist the pet too.

The AoE vs. stealth is a poor argument. If you're a rogue sneaking into a mass conflagration where AoEs are regularly going off its going to bite you hard, but that shouldn't be your battle anyhow. Rogues aren't a jack of all trades class for the front lines, never were. So sorry you're playing them that way. May I suggest a Shaman if you want to be able to adapt to every situation near equally well - that's the real "well rounded" class. If you're sneaking up on mages and warlocks who aren't engaged already and they get you with AoE they either have immaculate luck, or you're being a dumbass. If they're chaining AoEs to detect rogues, wait. They'll sit to drink shortly. Strike.

[Merusk]

Did I missread that, or can you controll your pets while sapped ?

Never noticed that.

Yes, Hunters can too. We just can't use our own activated abilities like BW.  The pet's stuff like Claw, Bite, Prowl, Charge? All available.  Pets are all treated as a separate mob in regards to their AI, not an extension of the player character like they were in EQ.

Shaman... ><

Fucking Shaman.

I believe Hunter's Mark was also "nerfed" several patches ago.  It doesn't go away, but only the hunter who dropped it on you can see it if you've vanished.  Hunters are VERY anti-stealth and I won't say they aren't.  I just know that rogues are very capable of taking-down the hunter once they get into melee range. Yes, even solo.

[Ironwood]

Our stealth... Well, it doesn't work.  It really, really doesn't.  Hunters

(chopped mid sentence for effect)

Rogue stealth works wonderfully against everybody but a hunter. That's not really broken with the exception of the pet. The pet bug is fucking horrible and needs to be fixed badly, and yes, I'm fed up with it on my rogue too. It's actually a good deal worse than you imply - the pet on aggressive will attack you from 30 yards out, and the hunter can actually assist the pet too.

The AoE vs. stealth is a poor argument. If you're a rogue sneaking into a mass conflagration where AoEs are regularly going off its going to bite you hard, but that shouldn't be your battle anyhow. Rogues aren't a jack of all trades class for the front lines, never were. So sorry you're playing them that way. May I suggest a Shaman if you want to be able to adapt to every situation near equally well - that's the real "well rounded" class. If you're sneaking up on mages and warlocks who aren't engaged already and they get you with AoE they either have immaculate luck, or you're being a dumbass. If they're chaining AoEs to detect rogues, wait. They'll sit to drink shortly. Strike.

Fuck Off.

That's not what I wrote at all.  I was talking about Vanish.

[Ironwood]

Our stealth... Well, it doesn't work.  It really, really doesn't.  Hunters

(chopped mid sentence for effect)

Oh, and if the 'effect' you were going for is 'I am a Dick and Do Not Wish To Discuss This'  Bravo.

[Righ]

Fuck Off.

That's not what I wrote at all.  I was talking about Vanish.

Not fucking likely, you screaming arse bandit.

My mistake on the vanish, mea culpa, ad nauseum. So what you're saying is that stealth is broken because you can't escape from a situation where you've bitten off more than you can chew? Lets face it, you can kill almost any clothie solo without giving them much of a chance to fight back. You'd only need vanish if there's more than one, then it's not really a case of underpowered, is it?

[Dren]

The anger is thick on Friday.  Thick I say.

[tazelbain]

I love the internet.  It's like the dysfunctional family I never had.

[Ironwood]

My mistake on the vanish, mea culpa, ad nauseum. So what you're saying is that stealth is broken because you can't escape from a situation where you've bitten off more than you can chew? Lets face it, you can kill almost any clothie solo without giving them much of a chance to fight back. You'd only need vanish if there's more than one, then it's not really a case of underpowered, is it?

What the fuck is the point of talking to you if you're gonna ride off on your horse with 'what I meant to say' every time ?

That's the second reply that's been 'fuk u lern2play nub.'

And you decry this turning into the WoW boards ?  You ?!

I refer the right honorable gentleman to the reply I gave some moments ago.

[Signe]

The Scots are fighting.  What a surprise.

[Righ]

What the fuck is the point of talking to you if you're gonna ride off on your horse with 'what I meant to say' every time ?

I didn't even say that, I said I was wrong in mireading your post, then gave another reply. Mea culpa means, my fault. Dear Lord, how fucking stupid are you?

[Calantus]

Are you guys seriously fighting about rogues? Jesus.

[Signe]

I thought they were fighting about hunters! 

I find your avatar very disturbing, Calantus.  It makes me nervous.

[Fabricated]

And hunters are the counter to about 75% of the classes. They are overpowered however you want to spin it.

You're thinking warriors. I eat pretty much everything but mages and other better equipped warriors alive in PVP. And that's suited up in middling quality blues.

[Paelos]

YOU JUST MADE AN ENEMY FOR LIFE!