Dev Blog: Arkanon says "No cheating!"

[Yegolev]

The Dev Blog is available to players, so I won't give a link.  Here is a meaty snip, though:

Anyone found selling items through Ebay or other similar auction sites faces an instant and permanent ban from the game. This ban will apply to all accounts traced to that user. Users supplying ISK to salesmen will also receive permanent bans.

Users who buy ISK or other items from auction sites will receive a warning or a temporary ban, depending on the severity of the offense and the user's previous record. The ISK will be confiscated, even if that means we have to put the offender's wallet into a negative state. Severe or repeated offenses will be met with instant and permanent bans.

This issue is not up for discussion. Buying your way ahead in EVE is cheating, pure and simple. There are many examples of games ruined by online merchants and their customers, and for good reason. Who wants to play a game where no one plays by the rules? Where's the fun in obtaining your goals through normal gameplay, only to have them wiped out by someone who bought his advantage on Ebay?

[Furiously]

I hope they post that they banned 100 accounts as a result of investigations in the next 4 weeks.

[WayAbvPar]

/applaud

Nice to see someone talk about it in black and white terms.

[Malathor]

Where's the fun in obtaining your goals through normal gameplay, only to have them wiped out by someone who bought his advantage on Ebay?

Why can't SOE understand this?

[Furiously]

Because someone in their management looks into it and says.. "Hey, there's some real money in this, we should get involved."

[MahrinSkel]

Before you hail them as the champions of anti-RMT gaming, you should know there's a loophole in their rules big enough to throw a dreadnought through: You can buy game time codes or cards for cash, and legitimately sell those for ISK (about 3M isk per day).  CCP explicitly allows it, most of it occurs through their "WTS" trade forum, and they'll take the ISK back if you scam someone.

--Dave

[5150]

Where's the fun in obtaining your goals through normal gameplay, only to have them wiped out by someone whos been playing longer than you that you have no chance to achieve parity with due to the unbalanced nature of the gameplay at launch

Fixed

[Alkiera]

Where's the fun in obtaining your goals through normal gameplay, only to have them wiped out by someone whos been playing longer than you that you have no chance to achieve parity with due to the unbalanced nature of the gameplay at launch

Fixed

I dunno, it sounds to me like corporate combat is similar to 1v1, except instead of shielding/armor as 'hitpoints' you use your bank acount.  The goal of the other side being to make it so your corp runs out of money to continue fielding a powerful navy.  Hitting them just once doesn't do much good, unless they were out on a limb already.  If they lose several times, that several bouts of replacing implants/ship parts, paying for insurance/cloning, etc.  They'll eventually run out of money and surrender or run away or stop playing the game.  There are caps to skill levels, and while a starting corp may not really have a chance to compete successfully with one of the 0.0 alliances...  Being a veteran should have SOME benefit, this isn't exactly TIE fighter, here.

Alkiera

[5150]

Where's the fun in obtaining your goals through normal gameplay, only to have them wiped out by someone whos been playing longer than you that you have no chance to achieve parity with due to the unbalanced nature of the gameplay at launch

Fixed

I dunno, it sounds to me like corporate combat is similar to 1v1, except instead of shielding/armor as 'hitpoints' you use your bank acount.  The goal of the other side being to make it so your corp runs out of money to continue fielding a powerful navy.  Hitting them just once doesn't do much good, unless they were out on a limb already.  If they lose several times, that several bouts of replacing implants/ship parts, paying for insurance/cloning, etc.  They'll eventually run out of money and surrender or run away or stop playing the game.  There are caps to skill levels, and while a starting corp may not really have a chance to compete successfully with one of the 0.0 alliances...  Being a veteran should have SOME benefit, this isn't exactly TIE fighter, here.

Alkiera

Let me be a little more specific.

I run a small corp of just me and my friends, we have no lofty expectations but there will come a point where empire space isnt enough (been there seen it done it etc). Now [hypothetically] we trot off down to 0.0 and one way or another piss someone off (mining in their backyard/killing a pirate who bit off more than he could chew etc etc) and next thing we know we are corp war'd, start losing ships and equipment hand over fist to more 'experienced' players, get fed up, cancel account & never come back (worst case scenario).

The 'vets' have had longer to amass wealth and assets in addition to taking advantage of inbalances in the game play (I've played on and off since launch and you could mine 0.0 in a newbie ship back at launch in addition to rare minerals being available in higher sec space - Gneiss in 0.6 springs to mind). Since skills are the basis for being able to use stuff, and skills are limited by real time I personally dont see the problem with buying items/ISK off ebay for Eve as the players development is still gated by real time.

At its basic level, ebaying ISK allows players to adequately clone and insure and go and participate in low sec space faster (which is what CCP seem to want people to be doing anyway!) and not spend all the time mining in high sec trying to get together enough cash to insure/clone and then climb a rung up the ship/equipment ladder rince and repeat.

I'll provisionally agree that ebaying game assets is a 'bad thing' in general but must be viewed within the context of the game system (i.e. just how inbalanced does/can it makes the game). Obviously as far as CCP are concerned this isnt open to debate but I can't help feeling that their thinking on this is flawed.

I guess I'm going to be in the minority here and will get flamed for the above.

[Alkiera]

At its basic level, ebaying ISK allows players to adequately clone and insure and go and participate in low sec space faster (which is what CCP seem to want people to be doing anyway!) and not spend all the time mining in high sec trying to get together enough cash to insure/clone and then climb a rung up the ship/equipment ladder rince and repeat.

I'll provisionally agree that ebaying game assets is a 'bad thing' in general but must be viewed within the context of the game system (i.e. just how inbalanced does/can it makes the game). Obviously as far as CCP are concerned this isnt open to debate but I can't help feeling that their thinking on this is flawed.

I guess I'm going to be in the minority here and will get flamed for the above.

Not flamed.  But the thing is, ISK sales work both ways.  Not only do they let you jump rungs on the ladder climbing down to lowsec space... There is nothing preventing those in the mega-alliances from doing the same thing.  Especially given that those down there are more likely more dedicated to the game, and maintaining their place in it, than a newer corp is.  If every time your smaller corp manages to do some 'harm' to another corp you're at war with, they replace the lost ISK by spending $20 on ISKbay...  Whatever advantages they might have due to time played are eventually outweighed by the ability to purchase ISK.  It comes down to seeing who is willing to spend more RL cash on the game... and for most people, getting away from real world interactions is a large portion of the entire point.

Limiting both new players and long-time players to the resources available within the bounds of the game is the only way to approach 'fair'.  And trust me, people expect some level of 'fair' when they play competitive games.

Alkiera

[Jamiko]

I run a small corp of just me and my friends, we have no lofty expectations but there will come a point where empire space isnt enough (been there seen it done it etc). Now [hypothetically] we trot off down to 0.0 and one way or another piss someone off (mining in their backyard/killing a pirate who bit off more than he could chew etc etc) and next thing we know we are corp war'd, start losing ships and equipment hand over fist to more 'experienced' players, get fed up, cancel account & never come back (worst case scenario).

0.0 is controlled by alliances for the most part. You don't generally just wander out there as a corp and claim some space, you join an alliance. Our relatively new corporation jumped out to 0.0 by joining an alliance and we are having fleet battles regularly against other alliances and having fun. Everyone has a role to play, but the vets have a few more role options than I do - I can accept that. Still, we are holding our own and one of our corpmates even cracked into the top 10 on the alliance killboard recently. Our corp is less than 6 months old and I'm one of the vets in the corp (started around May last year).

This game works better for new players getting involved than most other MMOs in my opinion. Most MMOs won't even let you group up with a vet and be productive. In EVE I can fly alongside 2+ year vets and help win the battle.

[Alkiera]

This game works better for new players getting involved than most other MMOs in my opinion. Most MMOs won't even let you group up with a vet and be productive. In EVE I can fly alongside 2+ year vets and help win the battle.

I need to stop reading this board, or I'm gonna end up picking up this game.  I don't even think I like sci-fi that much...  Tho previous sci-fi MMOs prolly cloud my vision...  Jumpgate beta(which strikes me as rather similar to EVE, but more flight sim than EVE), E&B(It was exactly EQ in space.  Exactly.), SWG(I don't remember what it was like, I think my mind has repressed the memories).  But EVE sounds fun.  What happened to the 'this is a barely interactive screensaver with integrated spreadsheet' claims?

Alkiera

[5150]

0.0 is controlled by alliances for the most part. You don't generally just wander out there as a corp and claim some space, you join an alliance.

Which unfortunately brings us back to money again

Formal Alliances cost 1 billion and require the empire control skill at 5 (for the CEO of the founding corp) to start, and 1 million per week per corp to maintain. There's always informal alliances, of course, but then you don't get the nifty toys.

So in order for an alliance to be worthwhile you need to be making 1 million a week on top of covering any losses (insurance, clones and ransoms for when you get caught short) for being out in 0.0 in the first place (I'm assuming this is 1 million bill to each member corp) thats before we talk about finding 1 billion to begin with (or is that just for the establishment of the alliance rather than per each new member corp?) and buying empire control (presumably each corp CEO needs it or is it just the alliance founder?). Obviously you cant put an ISK cost on training this up to 5 but I'm guessing that probably about a months worth of learning?

I'm not trying to be difficult but I just see the above as more reason to ebay some ISK.....

[Jamiko]

It's very easy to make money in 0.0

It's my vague understanding that it would cost a corp 1 million ISK per month to be part of an alliance. That is not a lot of money. The 1 billion fee was the cost for starting the alliance originally.

http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g12.asp

I'm not in charge of the corp so I never see this expense. I believe our corp taxes cover the expense quite easily.

Also, once in an alliance you usually get ships replaced for free during wars and thats a nice bonus.

[Furiously]

I've been recycling most of the gear has dropped for me the past 2-3 days and keeping the stuff from mining, I still don't have enough to build a backup cruiser. Are the mineral deposits that much better in 0.0?

[Der Helm]

Pressing the "Corp" button on the NeoCom opens up the Corporation Management tool. The technical aspect of managing a corporation of any size is a walk in the park after a quick familiarization. The human aspect is another issue all together.

Heh.

[Jamiko]

I've been recycling most of the gear has dropped for me the past 2-3 days and keeping the stuff from mining, I still don't have enough to build a backup cruiser. Are the mineral deposits that much better in 0.0?

Yes. Also, bounties on rats are higher, often in the hundreds of thousands. We took down an NPC worth 7 million ISK just the other day.

[Merusk]

  But EVE sounds fun.  What happened to the 'this is a barely interactive screensaver with integrated spreadsheet' claims?

If all you ever do is mine, or run cow hauls this is a vailid complaint.  Travel is SLOOOOW in EVE, even in a fast ship.  Took me 1:45 in a 305m/s Wolf to make it from my old sector to the new F13 area.  Thankfuly it was all through safe space so I could go AFK and watch some TV while the game moved my ass on its own.  If it had been through low-sec I'd have been sitting at the machine for nearly 2 hours just watching the screen.

Once you're set-up someplace though you're usually within 2-3 jumps of all missions and some low-sec stuff to do, so the most downtime I encounter is maybe about 5-10 mins of travel.  The only long travel you do after that is finding parts after you had your latest ship blown out from under you.

Mining is also sloooow if you don't have upgraded skills/ lasers.  Their first tutorial (I haven't done the new one.)  trained you how to mine, how to move, how to target and fire weapons, then kicked you out into space.  You had a newbie mission you could do, but the money earned was pitifu since the agent quality sucks.  On top of that if you don't know how to find new agents, or train skills to raise your standing to get access to more agents then it's the ONLY agent you're going to have for a while, earning maybe 10k for a completed mission in while trying to save for a 250k+ ship in your free little noobie fighter.  Yes, good deal of suck if you don't know what's going on.

The combat is fun, though.  And if you have friends to help out on modules, cash loans, whatever it becomes very fun very quickly.  Like most MMOs it's the players you're with that make or break the game, imo.  A large part of why I quit back in September was all the Corp guys had by and large stopped playing. Missions might be entertaining and profitable, but there's fewer of them than there are newbie quests in Everquest.  Once you've run the same one for the 3rd time you really don't see the point in continuing to pay and play all by yourself.

[Yegolev]

So in order for an alliance to be worthwhile you need to be making 1 million a week on top of covering any losses

I am able to make over 1 million ISK in under four hours with my current setup, assuming the usual interruption by NPC spawns or taking a break to read up on skills or equipment is kept to a minimum.  As I mentioned, I fly a Navitas frig fitted with mining lasers, cargo expanders, 1MW AB and a civ shield repair.  I figure if I can make 1m, solo, in .7 space, a "real" player should be able to do better with the same four-hour window.  I don't need to buy ISK to compete, and neither should anyone else.

[Yoru]

So in order for an alliance to be worthwhile you need to be making 1 million a week on top of covering any losses (insurance, clones and ransoms for when you get caught short) for being out in 0.0 in the first place (I'm assuming this is 1 million bill to each member corp) thats before we talk about finding 1 billion to begin with (or is that just for the establishment of the alliance rather than per each new member corp?) and buying empire control (presumably each corp CEO needs it or is it just the alliance founder?). Obviously you cant put an ISK cost on training this up to 5 but I'm guessing that probably about a months worth of learning?

1 million sounds like a lot until you get into a properly-equipped cruiser; it adds an order of magnitude onto your money-generating capabilities. Using my Caracal in 0.2 space, solo, I can generate about 3 million an hour on average from bounties + loot sales, with rare drops adding to that significantly. In 0.0, you have access to belts full of battleship rats, who often have bounties into the millions, as mentioned above. From what I hear, takes of 10 million/hour are not uncommon.

Founding the alliance (one-time cost) costs 1 billion to the founding corp and requires that corp's CEO to have Empire Control. At that point, the 'executor' corp has to pay 1 million per corp in the alliance every week; it's up to the 'executor' corp (usually the founding corp) to collect that money somehow. Empire Control is probably 2-3 months of training, since I think it requires you to have Corp Management 5 -> Megacorp Management 5 to start doing Empire Control. Joining an alliance doesn't have a fixed cost in the system, IIRC, but different alliances may have different policies.

It's perfectly viable for a corp our size (~20 people) to join an 0.0, we just don't have the skills to survive out there quite yet.

I've been recycling most of the gear has dropped for me the past 2-3 days and keeping the stuff from mining, I still don't have enough to build a backup cruiser. Are the mineral deposits that much better in 0.0?

 Yes and no. The quantities available should be comparable or exceed what you see in lowsec, due to lower exploitation, but you also have access to a broader spectrum of ores, hopefully encompassing the 'best of breed' ores. You also get access to ores that refine into zydrine and megacyte in quantity; presently, you have to go down to 0.2 (hemorphite) to get more than single-digit zydrine yields.

For posterity, the 'best of breed' ores and the highest security ratings in which I've seen 'em:
 Tritanium (veldspar) - 1.0
 Pyerite (scordite) - 0.9
 Mexallon (plagioclase) - 0.8
 Isogen (omber) - 0.6
 Nocxium (hemorphite) - 0.2
 Zydrine (crokite OR bistot) - 0.0
 Megacyte (arkonor) - 0.0

[Krakrok]

ISK still feels like a cockblock to me in Eve. And being able to buy 25 million ISK for $10 trivializes my efforts. People would feel less of a need to buy ISK if it was less of a cockblock.

[Yegolev]

Just FYI, omber exists in 0.7 Claulenne, in sizeable quantity until the big dogs come by and strip it.  This is funding my soon-to-be-purchased cruiser.  Isogen is (was?) going for 120 isk each in Scolluzer, a 0.8 two jumps from Claulenne.  So for my initial ~9980 isogen haul, I pulled down ~1.2 million isk.

[Strazos]

ISK still feels like a cockblock to me in Eve. And being able to buy 25 million ISK for $10 trivializes my efforts. People would feel less of a need to buy ISK if it was less of a cockblock.

I have more ISK than I know what to do with at the moment, and I play pretty casually. It's not a cockblock, especially after you get out of frigates.

[Hoax]

Yeah if you are actually playing even 1hr a night making millions is not hard.  Implants from missions, rare drops from rats or just mining can net you big wads of cash.  Hell you can hop in an indy and make a few million if you find a decent trade run and do that while watching tv (autopilot 4tw).

[Krakrok]

I have more ISK than I know what to do with at the moment, and I play pretty casually. It's not a cockblock, especially after you get out of frigates.

Where's your space station? Compared to UO and Planetside it's cockblocked. Compared to what the game could be it's cockblocked.

[Strazos]

Where's your space station? Compared to UO and Planetside it's cockblocked. Compared to what the game could be it's cockblocked.

Don't be retarded. This is the least catassy, grindy game I have ever subbed to. A person owning a house or small fort is very different from a star base.

And I Hate grinds and (mandatory) catassing.