Leaked Priest Changes?

[Phred]

In what bizarro universe is feedback good enough? A weapon buff? For a priest racial spell? You must play horde.

[/i] I have no idea what feedback is, but a 10% spirit bonus and desperate prayer puts humans in pretty high standing already, I'd say.  The theoretical Elune's Clarity changes very little, and is rather stupid as well.mana efficient than Gheal.

Feedback is the only racial specific spell human priests get. http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=13896 They share desperate prayer with dwarves. All humans get increased spirit.  Feedback is probably the most useless priest spell in the game.

[cevik]

Actually, I think the Death Coil buff was a bit too much (and I've been playing my warlock since november 2004). It is supposed to be THE defensive skill for 'locks, but (while fulfilling that role adequately), it's far too effective as an offensive weapon. I wouldn't mind the range getting nerfed to 10yd or so. Make it the 'warlock scatter shot' if you will. Oh, and remove wotf. :P


-- Z.

1 spell on a 2 minute timer doesn't bring a class from gimp to "teh most uberast clas evar in teh game" as all the hunters and rogues are trying to claim we are.  Unfortunately I think the nerf will be WAY bigger than reducing the range of dc.  And what sucks about that is, the only nerf that is really needed is to reduce the range to 10 yards..

EDIT:  The problem with locks before dc, and the reason dc helped so much, is that once a melee closes the gap and gets close to the lock, it's game over.  None of their spells are castable.  Every other caster has at least one ability to counteract this (Priests get an insta-castable shield and can also get focus casting, Mages get blink, frost nova and pom, and , druids can shapeshift and/or they have barkskin, plus nature's switfness, Shaman are hybrids that get mail armor (for god's sake), etc etc).  In fact, every single one of the listed abilities help with MULTIPLE melees, except locks, who had nothing before, and now have a single targeted 3 second insta cast fear on a 2 minute cooldown.  Any nerf that happens to dc HAS to take this into account, what locks need is a way to continue casting when a melee is on them, if they don't have that, they are crippled as a class.  PvE is fine because they have vw's to tank for them.. and no.. nothing silly like allowing taunt to work on a melee in pvp is going to work, addons will overcome that in 2 days..

[Zane0]

Shrug, I'd rather have a good ability shared by other races than a uniquely bad ability.  Priest racials with exception to Dwarf and Human ones have very limited PvE application, or very little application at all in some cases.  For instance, I'm pretty sure my wand can out-dps starshards.

[cevik]

Shrug, I'd rather have a good ability shared by other races than a uniquely bad ability.  Priest racials with exception to Dwarf and Human ones have very limited PvE application, or very little application at all in some cases.  For instance, I'm pretty sure my wand can out-dps starshards.

Devouring Plague.

[jpark]

Yup, seems to only address PvE uber raids.  Thus, a wet dream from some forum whore.

You do realize that is the issue right?

Here, I'll sum it up for you:  Shadow Priests, even at 60, are currently (considered to be) too uber.  Holy Priests, at any level, are currently way to fucking weak.  1.10 is going to be the priest revamp.  What will happen in 1.10 is going to be one of two possibilties: 

A)  Shadow Priests get HEAVILY nerfed, to the point of uselessness, and holy priests will be slightly buffed, so that it will become viable in raids (but not in pvp).  Priests will be dead to PvP.

B)  Shadow Priests will get slightly nerfed, enough to be weak but not 100% useless but they will not be the 1v1 gods they are today (and they will still be gimp in group pvp), and holy priests will be slightly buffed, so that they will become viable in raids (but not in pvp).  Priests will be dead to PvP for mediocre players, but good players will still find a niche for them.

Those are the only two choices on the table.  You should expect a major nerf to Shadow Priests in 1.10 and be happy if you only get mostly nerfed.  There is no possibility Shadow Priests will escape without a nerf of some kind.  1.10 is a patch for holy priests only, one of the things holy priests are crying is "Nerf Shadow, we don't want that anyways!!1!"..

Quoted for emphasis.  The holy tree sucks in so far as while we can debate how useless it is - nobody takes for 31 points.  I was a discipline Priest and on raids was the number 2 priest and number 3 overall (percent healed and overhealing adjusted).

[Zane0]

Exceptions, but racials are still so unbalanced that, if not fixed in this patch, should essentially be scrapped / incorporated into talents imo.  I don't see Devouring Plague, or any racial for that matter as comparable to say, fear ward, which arguably trivializes entire boss encounters.

[Morfiend]

Oh, and remove wotf. :P


-- Z.

Die thanks.

[Calantus]

A)  Shadow Priests get HEAVILY nerfed, to the point of uselessness, and holy priests will be slightly buffed, so that it will become viable in raids (but not in pvp).  Priests will be dead to PvP.

...

Personally getting sick of the shadow = PVP spec argument.

I leveled up in a duo with my brother's warrior on my 2nd 60 priest and started off going shadow. When we started doing BGs a lot in our 30s I respecced to holy cause pvp is fucking shit without improved flash heal. Mind blast is for assisting the train when you don't need to heal, to finish off someone who is going to get away, or to snipe kills off the dps classes for a laugh. SW:P is for stopping rogues and druids from stealthing. Otherwise flash heal, renew, PW:S, psy scream, and inner fire are all you need to use to get your job done in PVP. Why people gotta roll a healing class, turn it into a subpar (woo, 3 offensive spells gogo) dps class is beyond me, but if you do stop saying shit like "shadow = pvp tree" cause its BULLSHIT.

Also, if you get spirit tap, Imp SW:P, and mindflay you can level very quickly. The damage talents can easily be made up by wearing more +damage gear most shadow priests ignore while leveling up. The base class just suffers from the lack of those 3 talents. With those 3 I was able to grind 20ish mobs before needing to drink by using a mindblast->SW:P->Mindflay->wand->mindblast->renew->autowand sequence. A sequence that only works properly with those 3 talents. It's the inability to do that sequence that makes solo pve as a holy priest suck donkey balls, not the loss of damage talents.

Shadow can get buffed or it can get nerfed, I really don't give a toss. The argument that you can't buff holy priests because of shadow has some merit though. Shadow priests are already quite powerful in 1v1 PVP, if you buff up their defense they would easily become overpowered in 1v1 PVP. And that's the kicker, if Blizz balanced for 1v1 I'd be worried, but they supposedly don't. Also there's no guarantees that they see a survivability buff as a good thing for holy priests regardless.

Personally I want to see GHeal hit 3 seconds with talents like the druid HT, be able to pick up divine spirit at 11 points like paladins with kings now, the +% healing talents to scale with gear like the +% damage ones (why the fuck it isn't done I have no idea), let PW:S get some coefficient for +healing gear, and be able to get imp flash heal with less points sunk into the tree. That's all I REALLY want.

[jpark]

.When we started doing BGs a lot in our 30s I respecced to holy cause pvp is fucking shit without improved flash heal

?

Not only do I get Gheals off in pvp....I have actually got group heals off several times with most group members in range.  Part of this will be due to the discipline tree - forget the name of the latent - that gives you 8 seconds of uninterruptable cast (from damage) on a 2 minute timer.  You can get 2 consecutive big ass heals off using that talent while someone beats on you.

Flash heals are for the lazy   

[Calantus]

Well... what you just said is not possible from my point of view. I don't know if its my server or what, but I sometimes cant get off a flash heal i started right when people first get hurt and they die before i get it off. Also I get every pet on me as soon as im spotted not to mention rogues and warriors such that i never get off a flash heal before dying unless I have FH talent or my focussed casting is off cooldown and I don't get purged. The assist trains are nasty here... 3-5 people hitting the same target... you ain ever gonna gheal that. Hell many times a shield+flash combo wont keep up with the burst damage.

EDIT: That is not to say it is ALWAYS like that of course, but it happened often enough for me to get pissed off at it and respec.

[Sairon]

Well... what you just said is not possible from my point of view. I don't know if its my server or what, but I sometimes cant get off a flash heal i started right when people first get hurt and they die before i get it off. Also I get every pet on me as soon as im spotted not to mention rogues and warriors such that i never get off a flash heal before dying unless I have FH talent or my focussed casting is off cooldown and I don't get purged. The assist trains are nasty here... 3-5 people hitting the same target... you ain ever gonna gheal that. Hell many times a shield+flash combo wont keep up with the burst damage.

EDIT: That is not to say it is ALWAYS like that of course, but it happened often enough for me to get pissed off at it and respec.

It's all about the timing, sometimes you have to start the cast before the target takes any dmg whatsoever.

[Calantus]

So they die before my next flash heal can land?

My point was that people die fast and so I can't be casting no heal that is extended to 6 seconds because some wanker's frenzied pet is interupting me every 1/2 second. Basically if a hunter with the right pet sicks his cat/bat onto you and aimshots through your shield you will not cast a heal before dying unless you have imp flash heal or your focussed casting is up... IF you don't get purged, and then only for 8 seconds. Frankly, anyone who was making a pure PVP healer would be a total dumbass not to get the talent.

[cevik]

Personally getting sick of the shadow = PVP spec argument.

...

Why people gotta roll a healing class, turn it into a subpar (woo, 3 offensive spells gogo) dps class is beyond me, but if you do stop saying shit like "shadow = pvp tree" cause its BULLSHIT.

I don't know if its my server or what, but I sometimes cant get off a flash heal i started right when people first get hurt and they die before i get it off. Also I get every pet on me as soon as im spotted not to mention rogues and warriors such that i never get off a flash heal before dying unless I have FH talent or my focussed casting is off cooldown and I don't get purged. The assist trains are nasty here... 3-5 people hitting the same target... you ain ever gonna gheal that. Hell many times a shield+flash combo wont keep up with the burst damage.

You answered your own question.  Holy priests have the least damage mitigation of any of the caster classes (no ice armor, ice block, no snares of any kind, no soul link, no bear form, no shadow form.. no damage mitigation) and are THE most targeted class of them all.  I can eat through a holy priest before his improved flash heal lands (curse of tongues, spell lock, fear interrupts, death coil, etc.. just last night I went 1v1 against a holy priest 5 levels higher than me and she never once got a single spell off, I killed her with full hp and 75% mana, two quick life taps and a canibilize and it was like she was never even there).

Shadow priests on the other hand, have damage mitigation that rivals mail wearers (cevik hangs out at about 56% damage reduction against even levels), a 50% snare (granted it's chaneled, but it still helps A LOT), vampiric embrace, a faster cooldown on his damage spell, a faster cooldown on his aoe fear, a 15% damage increase from shadowform, a 10% damage increase from talents, another 15% damage increase, shareable to the entire party, from talents, silence, and has a 10% chance to stun when he lands a spell, for even more escape abilities..  Plus the ability to drop shadow form and switch to fast shields or focused casting to land heals when he needs to provide heal support.

My typical PUG AB goes like this:  Start by buffing my party.  /p "tired of not getting heals in BG?  GO TO LM, FREE HEALS FOR THE FIRST 5 CUSTOMERS."  Get bombarded with tells of "fort", explain that fort takes 1/3rd of my mana, and I can only cast 3 at a time, get more tells of "fort".  Mount.  Run to LM.  Stop at the bottom of the hill, turn around and /p "CHARGE LM, FREE HEALS WHEN YOU ARRIVE".  Wait for everyone to pass me.  Run up to LM, stand behind the stump, cast 3 or 4 heals before getting mass targeted.  Use sheilds, fears, and focus casting to get 3 or 4 more heals off.  Die.

Spawn at farm, run back to LM and heal up the wounded.  Get abandoned at LM as everyone, stupidly, rushes stables.  Switch to shadow form and guard lm.  Get jumped by rogues, fear them off, use sheilds, focus casting, and skillz0rz to pwn them.  Laugh as they think they can take a shadow priest..

Shadowpriests are the PvP spec because you aren't a one trick healing pony.  You can heal as well as a holy priest in the time that you have (face it, holy spec is mainly to increase mana effecientcy, and you don't have enough time for healing to worry about mana), and you can also go shadow if you get caught 1v1 and melt faces.  It is the PvP spec.

Almost half the high warlords on my server since I started playing have been priests, and none of them were holy (and we currently have 3 shadow priests right now in the top 20 and all working on becoming HW in the next few weeks, one of them I've pvped with quite a bit). 

[Calantus]

You are wrong.

Shadow is obviously the PVP spec for you. Maybe it is even the PVP spec for all people who actually PVP without 2 wingmen at the very least and/or do not fancy the support role. For me? Definately not. Had I only cared about PVE I would probably still be shadow as the changes mean less there than in PVP for me, and are definately not worth nerfing my solo farming ability so far (I can pot like a whore in PVE if needed). What I object to is people saying that it is "THE" PVP spec just because it suits how they personally PVP.

What the high ranked pvpers do means very little unless you're talking BG strats. A glory-fiend who likes killing other players is in the DPS spec? Colour me surprised. I bet the druids are feral and the paladins are ret too, huh?

[cevik]

You are wrong.

No.. I'm very right.  But you can do what you please, doesn't bother me...

[bhodi]

Even though it may not be worth playing a holy specc'd priest, I find a restoration specc'd druid is a lot of fun to play. Sure, you get targeted, but the fact is I can live almost indefinately versus any 1 other class and can survive a 2v1 with any but stunlocking rogues for a good length of time until help arrives.

With warstomp (nerf cows), nature's swiftness, high chance to continue spellcasting, decent armor, the ability to kite w/ shapeshifting, nature's grasp, remove curse and poison (I never see anyone else use these!), and regrowth+rejuv, and, of course, innervate, I'm pretty damn good bait. In AV I've got it made; no one charge me and live and no rogue can stun-kill me before either nature's grasp or my teammates rip him a new one.

In AB it's a little more difficult, but I can make people's life hell with some quick spellwork -- they can't kill me quickly, and all the time they'er trying not only am I rooting and kiting but I'm also throwing instant heals on my party members. In essence, I'm too much of a threat to ignore but too difficult to kill quickly even if two or three people are targeting me. I can also cast about 10 MotW with one mana bar; that helps too.

In WSG, of course, I simply drink a free action potion and shift to cat form and sprint out of the flag room while the super mario brother's invincible theme music plays.

[Dren]

You are wrong.

No.. I'm very right.  But you can do what you please, doesn't bother me...

You two are talking about two different things.  Calantus, you are not a shadow priest until you get Shadowform.  Before that, yes, you are a weak non-holy specced priest and it sucks.  Seriously, shadowform is where that tree takes firm hold on being viable.

[Kageru]

And if the changes are to be believe then the real combination is shadow form + inner fire giving much
higher mitigation than was intended (warrior level). It would be a shame if inner fire got nerfed because
of that use though.

I think it's more or less mandatory that fear ward ceases to be a racial spell.

[Teleku]

I'd just like to say that I'm in a guild thats working its way through BWL, and of the 8 main priest we have, 6 of us are Shadow spec (other two are Disc).  You can raid fine with shadow.  Holy spec gives no big buff to your healing really, just more efficency.  Which means the other Shadow Priest and I just have to be a little more carefull in mana usage, and maybe use a pot or two to compensate at particular fights.  Hopefully, making Holy tree not so worthless and having it actually increase your healing power is what they will do, making it a viable option.  And hopefully leave Shadow alone (or maybe buff it a bit :p).

Then again, I'm in a rather casual non-asshole guild.

[Calantus]

You are wrong.

No.. I'm very right.  But you can do what you please, doesn't bother me...

You two are talking about two different things.  Calantus, you are not a shadow priest until you get Shadowform.  Before that, yes, you are a weak non-holy specced priest and it sucks.  Seriously, shadowform is where that tree takes firm hold on being viable.

You act like I've never played full shadow before. My previous 60 priest was a reroll I needed to hit 60 asap so I of course specced shadow and twinked the hell out of them. I saw the power of a shadow priest and I /yawned. Yeah I can kill mounted people with 2 dots and a mindflay. Yeah I can own somebody's face before they have time to do much of anything... but it just wasn't what I was looking for. I've had only 4 chars over lvl 40... shaman, druid, priest, priest (oh, and the next highest char was a 39 paladin)... obviously I like healing, that is what I rolled my priests to do. If I wanted DPS I'd have rolled a mage or warlock or rogue or hunter, and hey I did, they just never got higher than 30 for some mysterious reason. I take that liking of healing into PVP and so my talent spec is built to support that role in PVP. Therefore my PVP spec is disc/holy that gives me slightly stronger heals, bigger mana pool, multiple protections against interruption, and higher survivability with higher armor and faster shields.

Oh but wait, holy is for PVE and shadow is for PVP!! Whatever. Reroll mage or warl... oh wait.

Also, the shadow priest has to be one of the most boring dps specs/classes in the world. It takes very little skill to choose which of your 3 damage spells to use, especially considering 1 is a DoT and 1 is on a cooldown. My 20 warlock has more variety already.

[Alkiera]

Seem to be lots of knowledgeable healer players here... how much different is a paly built for healing, from a priest, or druid, or whatever, also built for healing?  I get that druids seem to be setup for heal-over-time, and while they have direct heals, they aren't neccesarily as efficient or whatever.  Mostly, I'm curious how a paly plays as a healer at higher levels.

Alkiera

[Calantus]

From a raiding perspective...

Paladins are the most efficient healers in the game, but they really lack in the ability to deal with massive spikes of damage and healing multiple people atonce. It seems to me that the best way for a paladin to heal is to stack spell crit, mana regen, and +healing to spam flash of light constantly on a target, acting like a souped up renew that can stack with itself (multiple paladins).

Druids are the next most efficient healers in the game. There seems to be 2 "best" ways to heal as a druid. The first is only good for 1 druid, and what they do is basically keep both their HoT spells on the tank all the time. The other way is to chain lowish level HTs with mass +healing and mana conserve so they only land when needed. A druid doing this will almost never run out of mana due to the combination of efficient heals and only a few landing here and there.

Priests are the best at dealing with spikes of damage with their fast, strong flash heal. One priest needs to keep up renew and the others just spam flash heal with mana conserve. They CAN play like a druid with GHeals but if you have the druids to do it they are better at it so you might as well not bother. Shaman are basically the same as priests in this regard.

What we do is ideally have enough priests to reliably deal with spikes before they have a chance of killing the tank, paladins to keep the tank topped off between spikes to spare priest mana, and druids trying to land their heals in spikes for faster spike recovery and saving priest mana (if all the priests run out so fast they are all recovering the tank will die as the other classes don't have enough fast HPS). It changes depending on how many we have available for a task and what the task entails, but for MT healing that's how we go.

For 5mans its all basically the same. The exact mana/health ratios and seconds on the cast differ, but the basic strategies are the same. Use your big heal whenever you can, use your smaller heal when you just need to top someone up or need them healed asap (unless you're a paladin), keep your HoTs up as often as you can if you have any.

[cevik]

Therefore my PVP spec is disc/holy that gives me slightly stronger heals, bigger mana pool, multiple protections against interruption, and higher survivability with higher armor and faster shields.

See, you keep throwing total bullshit into your statement, which makes it appear that you clearly don't know what you are talking about.

Holy priests are incapable of having "higher survivability", even with the discipline talent of improved inner fire, you don't get the 15% damage reduction of shadowform.  What you are saying DOESN'T PAN OUT.  And guess what:  You can have improved inner fire with shadow builds as well.  So you can stack that 45% increase of inner fire with shadowform.. I promise you don't "higher survivability with higher armor" than a shadow priest.

Furthermore, the "faster shields" thing is another disc talent, not a holy talent.  And guess what, there isn't a single shadow priest (worth mentioning) in the game who doesn't ALSO have that talent.  All the things you keep claiming for your uber healing pvp holy spec are part of the default shadow spec.

So that in the future you can actually be informed, here is my shadow spec.. And before you start claiming to have a better fort buff than me, notice that I took the improved fort talent off the disc tree as well:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/priests/talents.html?50023212300000000000000000000550202510015151

I invite everyone to go look at the holy tree to see what calantus is gaining over me.  Aside from an improved smite (ohh yay), reduced threat generation (go go reduced threat in pvp!) and a 70% chance to not have one spell interrupted, he gains mana efficiency and a nice pretty spirit that tells everyone on the battlefield that he died.  Yay for holy!

[Calantus]

You get a whole lot of talents I don't give a shit about, God I'm missing so much. Btw, I was listing what I spec for, not what holy gives me. Holy gives me 5% more crit on heals, 10% more healing, and 70% immunity to interruption from damage. I would make a pretty ghost that, since you know jack and fucking shit about being a holy priest in PVP, I will inform you does actually help and can swing the tides of battle. I would also increase someone's armor when I crit heal them, but right now I changed my spec around a bit for DS and subtlety to help in PVE since it's not too much of a sacrifice. And if you really wanna know, I'd pump 17 points into holy if ALL I got was that 70% non interuptability. Oh, and I have around 600 more mana due to the higher disc talent you don't pick up.

I'm sure your spec is lovely, though I must wonder why you didn't pick up the ranged talent, but it is not the "PVP" spec. It is the "DPS PVP" spec (although, not quite, you mixed in some pve there with spirit tap at the cost of more range), which is appropriate if you want to be doing damage in PVP. If you want to heal though... YOUR SPEC FUCKING SUCKS FOR IT. See where I'm coming from now?

Oh and here's my pvp spec if you want to try and shoot it down. You will note it sucks if you want to do damage: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/priests/talents.html?50023215350000055500500202100000000000000000

[Dren]

I don't care which build is better.  I want the choice.  Nerfing Shadow would be taking away that choice.

This just seems like the same ole "Grass is always greener..."  If you feel weak and unused in the class and build you have, yell until you get your way and be damned all others.

Keep it the way it is and adapt.

[Ironwood]

Goodness, you guys are getting heated about this.

I think I'll send the wife in (disc/holy but different from Cal) to tell you that you're both FUCKING MORONS.

Or something.

[cevik]

If you want to heal though... YOUR SPEC FUCKING SUCKS FOR IT. See where I'm coming from now?

But it doesn't, that's the key you are missing, the ONLY THING you have over me in healing is that you have more mana effeciency, and since I never run out of mana, that's not much of an advantage.  Even at those long ass fights for LM I have plenty of mana to keep people healed, and I pop an AB faction ration when we're done and, just like that, I'm ready to go.  In addition, if I ever get caught 1v1, a quick (and very mana cheap) switch to shadowform means I'm a million times more versatile than your one trick pony of a spec that only really buys you mana effeciency and 1 spell that is 70% uninterruptable.  Add in mind flay, blackout, silence, vampiric embrace, improved pyschic scream, improved shadow word:pain, and improved mind blast, suddenly I'm about a million times more versitile than a holy priest.

And that talent is pretty much useless, since with Focus Casting, Martyrdom, and Shielding, I spend a vast majority of every minute uninterruptable.  I hardly see where 17 talent points, and gimping your character in 1v1 battles, is worth being 70% uninterruptable ON ONE SPELL for the ~10 out of every 60 seconds that you can be interrupted at all.. but your call, good luck with that.. Glad you're destined for a role of always running with wingmen, as you said above.  I myself can pop over to mines and take it away from the 2 rogues stealthed there if needed (and the reality is, no matter how good your team is, sometimes shit like that is needed), or I can heal the warriors at bs if that's needed instead.

And I still have spirit tap over ranged because I haven't respeced since I was leveling up.  Sorta waiting on the 1.10 nerf which will likely include a free respec, rather than spending my cash on it.

[Zetor]

Shadowform = no Inner Focus
Inner Focus = <3

Thus, 21/21/9 > 31/* in pve. :P


-- Z.

[cevik]

Shadowform = no Inner Focus
Inner Focus = <3

Thus, 21/21/9 > 31/* in pve. :P


-- Z.

I know nothing about pve specs.. and I'm proud of that fact.

[Paelos]

Man this thread got stupid in a hurry. Why does it matter what the hell your spec is in PvP? You're a fucking priest, people will fall over themselves to get you in an group no matter what you're specc'd. In pve or pvp.

Comparing specs and debating your awesomeness is for the WoW forums. Nooblers.

[Righ]

This is fast become the annex of the WoW forums. Hunters are overpowered, nerf hunters, etc.

[tazelbain]

Walken is overpowered.  Nerf Walken.

[Righ]

Yes, yes, he is - and that's Walken nerfed to fit in a short and small animation. The full power of Walken scares even Nyarlhotep.

[Lt.Dan]

I got avatar inspired too.  Walken On-line is so going to kick Baldwin On-line's ass.

[HaemishM]

I got avatar inspired too.  Walken On-line is so going to kick Baldwin On-line's ass.

Of course. Baldwin On-Line isn't allowed to have an ass, so his buttock will be thoroughly chastised by the power of Christ.