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HRose
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on: January 11, 2006, 08:51:13 PM

This is one (of the many) parts I've never experienced in Eve. I know very little about it and all my stuff always came passively through the market.

Can someone write a brief summary on how crafting works and how it can be accessible for a new player? I would like to know pretty basic stuff, like how you acquire blueprints, how you track the resources/asteroids you need, and so on.

-HRose / Abalieno
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Yoru
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Reply #1 on: January 11, 2006, 10:04:28 PM

There's two big parts to crafting: manufacturing and research. For basic tech 1 stuff, these involve two components: minerals and blueprints.

Blueprints

Blueprints are recipes; they let you combine a given quantity of minerals and produce something. There's two types of blueprints: blueprint originals ("BPOs") and blueprint copies ("BPCs"). Blueprints have four basic stats:

 * Number of runs. This dictates how many times you can use the blueprint.
 * Base Production Time. How long manufacturing will take for one use of the blueprint.
 * Mineral Efficiency ("ME"). This dictates how much material will be wasted. Higher mineral efficiency means less waste, but the effect of higher mineral efficiency increases at a logarithmic rate (that is, as the level of mineral efficiency increases, each additional level eliminates less and less waste).
 * Production Efficiency ("PE"). This dictates how long manufacturing one run of the blueprint will take. Like mineral efficiency, the benefit has a logarithmic dropoff.

(Math: Both efficiencies are basically used to calculate waste by taking the base waste and multiplying by 1/(1+x), where x is the ME or PE rating. 1/(1+x) isn't the exact formula, but it's a close approximation.)

Tech 1 Blueprint Originals can be acquired either as a reward for running agent missions, purchased off the standardmarket from NPCs or (rarely) purchased off the escrow market from PCs. BPOs can be used an unlimited number of times and can be used in research; they start with ME 0 and PE 0 when purchased from NPCs. BPOs also have three additional stats:

* ME Research Time. How long the BPO will be sitting in a lab when researching 1 point of ME.
* PE Research Time. Same thing as above, but for PE.
* Copy time. Same as above, but how long it will take to create a BPC with 1 run from this BPO.

Blueprint Copies are acquired either as a reward for running agent missions or via trade with other players (either directly or via the escrow market). They can be created by players; a BPO is put into a 'copying' research slot and produces a BPC after a given amount of time. BPCs inherit the basic stats of their BPO parents if they're manufactured; otherwise, the stats are determined by the mission system. I don't think you can research a BPC to improve its ME or PE, but I could be wrong on that count.

Minerals

Raw materials that come from reprocessing items or mined ore. 'Nuff said.

Research

Research is meant to help you improve your BPO before using it in production, since a 'raw' BPO off the market is generally quite slow and wasteful. Research is performed at stations (NPC-owned stations, PC outpost stations; I believe the POS research arrays are currently bugged). Any given research-capable station will have a fixed number of slots, usually 20. You can search for research-capable stations by clicking on the 'science & industry' button on your UI, going to the last tab ('Installations'), and setting the filters to search for whatever you're looking for.

When you have a BPO you want to research, you first look for a station with open slots for the research type you want to perform. For manufacturing, PE research and Blueprint Copying, you should be fine - in empire, I rarely see a shortage of these. Mineral Efficiency research slots are almost always clogged up in the main regions, so you may have to travel around to find an open slot.

Once you've found a station with an open slot, you physically take your blueprint to that station and drop it in your hangar (or your corp's hangar). Next, you install your blueprint, either by rightclicking on the blueprint and choosing the type of research you want, or by navigating through the science & industry UI. You'll be asked where you want the blueprint to be taken from and placed into, as well as asked for a number of runs through the research facility. Punch in your info and hit OK, you'll be presented with a price quote. Generally, only ME research is particularly expensive, and that's largely due to the high demand for ME research slots. Hit OK and your BPO will get sucked into the system. Your science & industry UI's 'jobs' tab will now show your job as 'In Progress' for a while.

As an aside, when doing research, it's usually worth it to specify multiple batches at a time. This allows you to keep your slot for multiple runs and avoid having to run around looking for a slot each time you want to research the BPO. For low-end stuff, like ammo and frigates, a ME of 10 is probably enough. Generally, as the item's expense increases, the more valuable higher ME will be.

Wait a while. Your research will probably take hours, days or even weeks. Go do other stuff. Once your job is done, it'll be shown as 'completed'. You then have to go back to the station where the completed job is and hit 'deliver' in the science & industry UI. The blueprint, now improved as you've specified, will pop out into your (or your corp's) hangar, ready to be researched again or used in production.

In order to do research, you will need the skill Laboratory Operation, at least at level 1. This will require the skill Science at level 3. There are skills that can be used to speed up the research process (Metallurgy for ME; for larger blueprints, having a good Metallurgy is recommended), but they're optional, especially for low-end BPOs.

Research generally has no material requirements and tends to not cost too much; the exception is ME research, which is generally expensive due to the demand for slots driving up the price. (Research is priced by the hour. Most research costs a few hundred isk per hour, whereas ME research can cost upwards of 2,000 isk per hour.)

Manufacturing

Okay, so you've got your nice, researched-up BPO, or your shiny freshly-acquired BPC and now you want to make stuff.

Manufacturing is just like research in that you take your blueprint to a station with the proper facilities; in fact, it uses the same UI, as you've probably noticed by now. Instead of Laboratory Operation, you need the Industry skill to run manufacturing jobs.

The main difference is that, for manufacturing, you also need minerals. Rightclicking on your blueprint and opening the 'show info' window will reveal that there's a second tab on the blueprint's info, containing the materials required to run the blueprint once.

Two numbers will be displayed, an 'ideal' number and 'your cost'. Your cost is primarily determined by skills, in particular the 'production efficiency' skill (PE), which requires an Industry skill of level 3. It's a very good idea to get your PE up at 3 or 4 before you start manufacturing anything more expensive than ammo, as you'll save a lot of expensive materials. If you want to focus on industry, PE 5 is almost mandatory in the long run; start worrying about PE 5 around the time you want to manufacture stuff larger than cruisers.

(I'm not sure if PE 5 causes 'your cost' to equal the ideal cost; I haven't reached that skill level yet.)

Anyway, once you've found a free manufacturing slot (shouldn't be hard), take 'your cost' in minerals and the blueprint to that station, and dump them either in your hangar or your corp's hangar. Set up a manufacturing job in the same way you set up a research job. Select the installation, set your input/output hangars and choose a number of runs.

You'll be given a quote for the material and ISK cost for the job you've submitted; annoyingly, they only give you an itemized list broken out by materials-used-for-production and materials-used-for-waste, with no aggregate total. Hit OK and the minerals and blueprint will disappear from your hangar. Note that the material costs listed on a blueprint are usually a little bit of an overestimate, so don't panic when you have stuff left in your hangar.

Manufacturing takes much less time than research, usually on the order of minutes or hours. Once it's done, hit the deliver button on the science & industry UI. Your finished items will be deposited in the appropriate hangar. If you were using a BPO or didn't use all of a BPC's runs, it will reappear in the hangar it was taken from.

Congratulations, you're now a basic crafter in Eve. There's a lot more skills you can add on beyond the four I've mentioned; most of them let you run multiple jobs, let you run jobs remotely, or speed jobs up. They're beyond the scope of a noobler's guide to crafting, though. Browse the market and read the skill descriptions, they're mostly self-explanatory.

Tech 2 BPOs

These are a special subtopic. They come from the 'tech 2 lottery', which is a system of random distribution of tech2 BPOs. I'm not entirely sure how it works, but it involves training up a large number of science skills and using R&D agents. Unfortunately, I'm not really well-versed enough to explain it beyond that.

HRose
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Reply #2 on: January 11, 2006, 10:51:07 PM

Wow, thanks. I knew already some of the general concepts but I falied to be able to play with them in the game. For example:
Tech 1 Blueprint Originals can be acquired either as a reward for running agent missions, purchased off the standardmarket from NPCs or (rarely) purchased off the escrow market from PCs.
That was one of my basic questions because I don't usually see any BP on the market. I can see it listed, but I cannot see it being sold.

So I could browse for a ship to buy directly, but I wasn't able to find a blueprint for it, so that I could build it myself, eventually.

More details about getting these BPs, and their accessibility?

From somewhere things must arrive in the game. That's the part that was obscure to me, since I cannot create anything out of thin air.

More question:
- What exactly is research? A timesink to improve the quality (as time invested and resources needed)? I thought that the BPs degraded over time with the use (as ME and PE). Instead from your description, it seems they can only improve through research.
- So the only difference between a BPO and a copy is that a copy has only a finited number of uses and a not-optimal, not-modifiable quality?
- Is there a way to find research costs without flying to the system and starting the process? And are these costs variable on the station where the research takes place? And so how I can compare them without flying all over the place?
- If the research takes place on NPC station (for the most part) why the costs should shifts? Just dynamic market or something else?

-HRose / Abalieno
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Yoru
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Reply #3 on: January 11, 2006, 11:06:52 PM

To get a NPC-supplied BPO, you want to search for '<name of item> blueprint', for example, if you wanted a Kestrel BPO, you can search for 'kestrel blueprint'. The different races seem to have monopolies on many blueprints; for example, I can't find Caldari ship BPOs outside of Caldari space; I'm in Heimatar right now and there's no kestrel blueprints for sale.

Don't forget to change your market range to region, though; the blueprint selling centers tend to be pretty spread out.

Yes, research is a time and money sink that slowly improves the blueprint being researched. I don't think blueprints degrade over time, aside from BPCs eventually evaporating once all their runs are used up.

Yes, the difference between a BPO and BPC is that a BPC has a limited number of uses. There's no such thing as an 'optimal' quality (see the math bit above; waste can never actually hit zero, it can only asymptotically approach it), but I'm fairly sure the ME/PE are non-modifiable on BPCs.

The science & industry UI lets you view all stations with manufacturing/research slots in the current region, so you can just go down the list to compare price. The price at a given station for a given use doesn't seem to vary. I haven't checked to see if it varies over time.

The costs on NPC stations seem to increase as the security of the system the station is located in increases; I think this is to encourage people to fly into unsafe space to research their blueprints. I don't know if it dynamically increases based on demand or anything else.
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Reply #4 on: January 12, 2006, 02:18:30 AM

Probably worth mentioning that there are infinite blueprint copies (at least thats what all mine say on them)

Way back at launch when most things didn't work correctly (or werent even in the game) any blueprint copy had no limit on it.

Theres a part of me that seems to remember some really old patch notes (when the copy run limit was introduced) that said that infinites would be changed to a certain number of runs but I have no idea if this is true or not (appreciate it if someone can clear this up)
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Reply #5 on: January 12, 2006, 10:05:36 AM

From what I have heard in the official forums (HUGE grain of salt, obviously), the infinite plans are still infinite.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

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Viin
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Reply #6 on: January 12, 2006, 11:54:04 AM

It should also be noted that BPOs are much much more expensive than BPCs. If you want to build your own ship (cruiser or better) you would find a BPC for sale by a Player on the Escrow market. Sometimes BPCs are sold for runs of 1 but most seem to be 5 or higher.

You can always resale a BPC after you have used one of the runs.

There's no reason to buy a BPO unless you plan on researching it and selling your own BPCs for profit. (Or you want an ammo/missile bpo that you can use forever - those aren't very expensive).

- Viin
Yoru
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Reply #7 on: January 12, 2006, 01:30:41 PM

There's no reason to buy a BPO unless you plan on researching it and selling your own BPCs for profit. (Or you want an ammo/missile bpo that you can use forever - those aren't very expensive).

Unless you're supplying a large corp/alliance or are planning on moving to zerosec and don't expect to have ready access to friendly neighbors or the Empire escrow market. :)
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Reply #8 on: January 12, 2006, 01:46:59 PM

Well yes, but we aren't doing that anytime soon.  :-D

- Viin
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Reply #9 on: January 13, 2006, 09:44:17 AM

Sometimes BPCs are sold for runs of 1 but most seem to be 5 or higher.

Given what I've read about the game, just one of anything is obviously not enough.  Over and over people say 'Don't fly it if you can't replace it'...  If you have a 1 run BPC, you can't replace it as easily.

Alkiera

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Welcome to the internet. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used as evidence against you in a character assassination on Slashdot.
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Reply #10 on: January 13, 2006, 10:00:53 AM

Well - you might want to see how you like flying a battleship before you buy two. The problem comes when you leverage yourself too much and lose it all.  That leads to being broke and running missions for weeks to re-establish yourself.

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Reply #11 on: January 13, 2006, 10:21:31 AM

I haven't had to do it yet, but I don't think the cost to come back is completely prohibitive. It certainly isn't as bad as say having your city razed in Shadowbane, for instance. Sure, it is a pain, but a mature enough character has the skill set to succeed at agent missions with less ship, at least it seems that way.

Losing implants would suck a bunch though.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

Libertarians make fun of everyone because they can't see beyond the event horizons of their own assholes Surlyboi
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Reply #12 on: January 13, 2006, 10:41:35 AM

I haven't had to do it yet, but I don't think the cost to come back is completely prohibitive. It certainly isn't as bad as say having your city razed in Shadowbane, for instance. Sure, it is a pain, but a mature enough character has the skill set to succeed at agent missions with less ship, at least it seems that way.

Losing implants would suck a bunch though.

Depends on what you're flying, and like you mentioned, what implants you've got. You'll never be shipless in EvE.  Every time I'e had a ship destroyed I was given a replacement noob ship.  Now, sure noob ships suck, but at least it's a ship and you can start doing level 1s again in it. (Particularly if you're like me and keep a stockpile of replacement parts in your hangar.)

  As I understand it, the folks who are driven to bankrupcy jumped ship-grades as fast as possible, without the back skills or contacts/ agents to do missions.  So they scrape and scrape and scrape to get that 7mil for a cruiser or the 100mil for a Battleship and try to take-on missions far beyond them and lose all that work they expended aquiring the ISK. They're not completly screwed, but they are back at square 1 on the ships.

Raising faction with agents can be a bitch, too, so not everyone does it.  I'm at 7.7 with my highest non-noob agent.  I get .1 standing every mission or two (depending on difficulty) but with her corp I'm only sitting at about 1.3.  Not a lot of agents available to me with that, and I've been working hard on it so I could hit level 3 missions or Level 2 agents with at least a positive quality rating.*

Given that it's so hard, you can imagine that folks itching for the PvP aspects aren't out running mission after mission to get to a point that a few missions will help them recover from a loss.   So, gank a guy enough times in 0.0 or send someone on a mission beyond their ability that forces them to replace ships enough, and they'll be hurting.

Also, 'less ship' in missions has been somewhat nerfed.  I used to be able to handle all the L2s in my Rifter no problem. When I started-up again after the RMR patch I was getting wtfpwned in all of the deadspace ones. (Which, coincidently have the highest payout)  Might just be that the setups are different enough now, but I think they increased NPC's punch to compensate for the increased power curve of a maturing playerbase. 

* ( I did see some new skills to help with that.. I should train them up too. Also, note that even a L2 agent of negative quality will give rewards greater than a L1 agent of good quality, so if you're running missions and think you can handle L2s don't snub the agent just because they're -7 and you found a +4 L1 agent )

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Reply #13 on: January 13, 2006, 11:15:37 AM

Awesome, Yoru, thanks.

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Reply #14 on: January 13, 2006, 12:04:25 PM

Quote
  As I understand it, the folks who are driven to bankrupcy jumped ship-grades as fast as possible, without the back skills or contacts/ agents to do missions.  So they scrape and scrape and scrape to get that 7mil for a cruiser or the 100mil for a Battleship and try to take-on missions far beyond them and lose all that work they expended aquiring the ISK. They're not completly screwed, but they are back at square 1 on the ships.

That makes sense. I am from the other school- I am developing a broad range of skills that will serve me well all through my career- I am not in too much of a hurry to get to battleships just yet. I would imagine that I will check out all the trading and research/manufacturing trees before I get that far anyway.

That is what I love about this game so far- just so many options to explore, and no 'optimal path'.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

Libertarians make fun of everyone because they can't see beyond the event horizons of their own assholes Surlyboi
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Reply #15 on: January 13, 2006, 12:20:40 PM

Losing implants would suck a bunch though.

From what I understand, you lose implants only when 'podded'...  In that after someone destroys your ship, you eject out in a 'pod', which, to hear tell, is nearly always promptly destroyed as well.  Is this an exageration?  In a lot of sci-fi, shooting at lifepods is gainst the future equivilent to the Geneva Conventions...  It's just Not Done.  Seems very odd to me that doing so is basically a foregone conclusion in EVE.

Alkiera

"[I could] become the world's preeminent MMO class action attorney.  I could be the lawyer EVEN AMBULANCE CHASERS LAUGH AT. " --Triforcer

Welcome to the internet. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used as evidence against you in a character assassination on Slashdot.
WayAbvPar
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Reply #16 on: January 13, 2006, 12:24:07 PM

From what I have heard, if you get killed by PCs, you are likely getting podded (especially in a corp war situation). I am not sure how often it happens vs NPCs. Hope I don't have to find out the hard way.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

Libertarians make fun of everyone because they can't see beyond the event horizons of their own assholes Surlyboi
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Reply #17 on: January 13, 2006, 12:25:38 PM

Lets see - you are a griefer/gate camper.... You have the ability to ruin someone's day...And it's a game on the internet...

only destroy their ship? or /assrape and pod em too?

WayAbvPar
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Reply #18 on: January 13, 2006, 12:28:14 PM

If they could physically stick a thumb in your eye while they were at it I would be playing with safety goggles on.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

Libertarians make fun of everyone because they can't see beyond the event horizons of their own assholes Surlyboi
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Reply #19 on: January 13, 2006, 12:38:54 PM

I remember reading that NPCs will not target a pod.  However, podding someone isn't going to take them out of the game as long as they have an up-to-date clone.  The rule stating "don't fly what you can't lose" applies to your meatbag as well.  It is still a great way to royally piss someone off, I imagine.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
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Reply #20 on: January 13, 2006, 01:13:49 PM

It is done for a couple of different reasons- to piss people off, to cost them money (in implants, which also sets back the character a bit due to lowered attributes), and to send them far away from the combat area (if their clone is 40 jumps away, they aren't likely to come looking for revenge any time soon).


I expect to be podded by any PC that kills me. Do they need to pod me in order to show up on my Kill Rights list, or just blow my ship to flinders?

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

Libertarians make fun of everyone because they can't see beyond the event horizons of their own assholes Surlyboi
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Reply #21 on: January 13, 2006, 03:15:35 PM

Almost certain NPCs ignore ods (unless this changed in the last year or so

Dont know about kill rights I'm afraid
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Reply #22 on: January 15, 2006, 03:44:44 PM

Skills: Always fill in your supporting skills *before* you move up a ship class.  I still haven't gotten in a Battleship, although I need to soon (0.0 spawns require either battleships, or interceptors).  But I can kill any NPC spawn short of a BS without a problem in a cruiser (well, I can kill a BS if it's alone, but that rarely happens and it takes forever).  I was running a BC, but I lost two of them in one day to a mercenary corp that declared war on my alliance, so I switched to cruisers (because I could more afford to lose them). 

Money: There are ways to make money that have less dependance on skills, the BPC escrow market has a lot of inefficiencies (buy Tempest BPC's in Rens for 800K, sell them in Jita for 1.8M, and so on) which requires no character skill at all.  I paid for my first BC that way, running the triangle between Jita, Rens, and Oursalaert in a shuttle.  And it is possible to make money running Trade Goods (stuff from the bottom of the market list that players never want like Rocket Fuel and Long-Limbed Roes, but NPC's will buy and sell) around, although to really make money that way you need to work up your skills so you can place a lot of Buy orders for the NPC's bottom-out price, and you have to get out to the less-populated regions like Derelik or Khanid to find any real profits.  Insta-gate BM's are a *very* worthwhile investment there, both because of the increase in speed and because they drastically reduce your vulnerability to player pirates.  A good trade route will deliver 1-3M in a run with an indy rigged for volume (10-12K m3, with cargo expanders and Giant Secure containers), and take roughly 20-30 minutes with instas.  I worked that method for about a week, but got bored with it (but then, I find Agent Missions too boring a way to make money, too, so YMMV).  Don't move valuable cargos through low-sec space without instas, and don't go afk. 

If your cargo is valuable enough (worth more than a battleship), don't move it anywhere without instas.  If it's *really* valuable, don't move it without combat ships in escort.  If you're moving BPO's, there's only two ways to go: Heavy, or Fast.  Move it in a major combat op with every gun your corp can muster, or get into a frigate with an MWD and move so fast no-one can lock, cargo-scan, and engage you before you're through the gates (if you're moving a high-value BPO through 0.0 space where you'll face bubble-camps, you need your head examined).

If you want to rat-hunt solo, it's much more efficient if you haul a couple of Giant Secure Containers to a system without a station, fill one with ammo and use the other to hold your loot (this experience is a lot like grinding levels in EQ-like games, but it earns faster than missions).  Every time you have enough named modules that will sell high to fill the hold of your rat-hunter, you take them to a system with a good population and sell them, and when the GSC is full of crap modules you bring your Indy out and haul them somewhere for reprocessing.  The main thing is that it takes forever to move between systems, so you want to minimize how often you do it.

You can get in a Hoarder (Minnmatar Industrial) with Industrial Skill 2, and rig it for a 9.6Km3 capacity with cheap cargo expanders (it will be slower than hell, but if you have instas you won't care), or for 400mps speed with Overdrive I's and a 10MN Afterburner I for a 3.6k capacity.  Generally I put an AB on *everything*, even my rat-hunters, and just keep turning it on whenever I need to move on normal drives (but then, I use cannon, and don't need the capacitor for much else).  MWD's are even faster, but it takes Tech 2 industrial Transports to fit those, which require a lot more skill, cost a lot more, and can be scrambled which will leave you dragging your ass right when you really need to be moving faster.

Tech 2 BPO Lottery: You have to work up your standing with the companies that have R&D agents, and with the individual agents, and have high enough Sience skills yourself.  Once you have, you can tell the R&D agents to start researching.  They accumulate Research Points, which are basically tickets for a lottery.  When you win the lottery for a BPO, you don't have to take it, you can choose to hold your points and keep trying.  Even a marginal T2 BPO is worth more than a billion, the really good ones (like those just coming out for Interdictors and Recon ships) are worth upwards of 20 billion isk.  One of my corpmates just won a BPO for a Tech 2 ammo and sold it for 3B.

But it takes a lot of time and money to get into the running, you have to work up your Science skills, some of which are very expensive, as well as run all the missions to get your standing up with the agents and their NPC corporations.

--Dave

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