Schild doesn't like WoW

[Glazius]

Fedex quests.
- I don't mind them. In fact I like them. Good for getting people to explore the game areas and learn their geography instead of sitting on their asses camping the <mob name> till they ding.

Kill 50 Rats.
- Well Implemented. Good for getting people to explore the game areas and learn their geography. Gets them moving around and whacking different foozles instead of sitting on their asses camping the <mob name> till they ding.  DAOC had a nice set of ideas here as well with the varying improved XP amounts given by uncamped mobs as well.

Okay, but were you complaining about them back in EQ?  Cause lots of the people talking about how awesome WoW is were, and schild is right in saying they're praising the same stuff they were bitching about a few years ago.

Can't speak for the rest of this, but...

I would complain about fedex quests across zones where I could arbitrarily die.

I would complain about killing 50 rats and sitting for 5 minutes between each one.

But what I would complain about would not be fedexing and killing.

--GF

[Llava]

WoW absolutely has FedExes in zones which are very dangerous.  I remember doing a number of these on my Rogue, wondering how anyone without Stealth got by.

Though I remember moreso having a really hard time with Kill 50 Rats when I'd find a rat, pull it, and fight it to 50%, then fucking Kil'Jaeden himself would happen to be wandering around and just aggro me cause I was near.

And, of course, there are no rats to be found outside of Kil'Jaeden's aggro range.

How do you people get by without Stealth, Sprint, and Vanish?

[Fabricated]

WoW absolutely has FedExes in zones which are very dangerous.  I remember doing a number of these on my Rogue, wondering how anyone without Stealth got by.

Though I remember moreso having a really hard time with Kill 50 Rats when I'd find a rat, pull it, and fight it to 50%, then fucking Kil'Jaeden himself would happen to be wandering around and just aggro me cause I was near.

And, of course, there are no rats to be found outside of Kil'Jaeden's aggro range.

How do you people get by without Stealth, Sprint, and Vanish?

I'm a warrior. We can usually get by a nasty confrontation by burning a timed skill like Shield Wall or Retaliation. If I have to run, I hamstring, and THEN run.

I never had any problem with aggroing guaranteed death monsters while killing quest monsters outside of maybe of the Graveyard in Duskwood, where Mor'Ladim (a surprisingly powerful and fast hitting elite undead mob) regularly educates people on why you don't develop tunnel vision while grinding.

[Ironwood]

Sons Of Arugal will teach you all you need to know about that.

The evil fuckers.

[Phred]

I remember doing an alliance quest to collect 4 types of booze that took me into duskwood about 5 levels earlier than I had any business being there.

[Brolan]

I remember doing an alliance quest to collect 4 types of booze that took me into duskwood about 5 levels earlier than I had any business being there.

Yup, and you can usually get away with it if you stay on the path and keep your eyes open.

[Llava]

Ugh, I just remembered the land of wandering aggro, that damn bear cave in the NE newbie area.  Some Furbolg thingy. A temple thing.  Whatever it's called.  I ran out of there so many goddamn times with 20 bears chasing me.

[MrHat]

Deep down, my dislike of WoW all stems from the fact that it's not Starcraft 2.

After Blizzard makes Starcraft 2, I can start liking their games again.  Until then, every game they put out just makes me bitter that they could have made Starcraft 2 instead.

There, I've admitted it.  Carry on with your rational discussion.

Supreme Commander.

[Tale]

I find WoW dull. I was in closed beta for six months (from June 2004), and I handed my account to a drooling friend because I wasn't using it enough. Came back just before retail and started enjoying it, played a bit after retail then got bored with it again. But WoW was still what all the cool kids were into, so I returned and did the grind to 60, raided MC and Onyxia a few times but found it dull, and haven't played since September.

I was a hardcore EQ raider from 1999-2002 so I feel I've been there, done that. After EQ I was a hardcore SWG PvP raider until my field doctor/carbineer became meat for unkillable, inescapable jedi. My SWG PvP guild was a spin-off from a top-five EQ guild so they got beta invites from Tigole, and turned into a WoW uberguild (but not in my time zone, so I can't join them). If the SWG from mid-2004 still existed I would have returned to it in the hope they would fix bugs, but we all know what happened with that. The December rumour about NCSoft taking over old SWG code and hosting a few servers sounded ideal, but it was probably a myth.

Blizzard did an awesome job of turning level grinding and questing into a fun game with the quality of its single-player titles, but the world is unconvincing. Mobs are on boring back-and-forth paths you can instantly spot, everyone is on almost exactly the same quest progression through the same bland instances (I hate hearing "I need to do instance X"), the player is given far too much information about game mechanics in the name of convenience, most raid fights are puzzles with only one tactical solution, and I feel like I'm playing a giant tutorial for new MMOG players. Been there, done that, and find it hard to understand why EQ veterans could get so obsessed over an unimaginatively-populated brown cave like Molten Core and Onyxia the rigidly scripted dragon. No, I haven't done BWL, because sticking around for all the MC/ZG/Ony raids to gear up was unappealing.

It is the slickest and best MMOG product on the market, great for the millions of noobs for whom it's a revelation (I'd say 500k vets and 4.5 million MMOG noobs is about the population split), but it offers nothing new. I'm an explorer type, so I want a wide MMOG frontier full of mystery and new ideas. WoW isn't it, but neither is anything else on the near horizon. The cool kids will probably have me playing WoW again soon.

[Simond]

You could always wait for Vanguard.

*cough*

[Velorath]

I find WoW dull. I was in closed beta for six months (from June 2004), and I handed my account to a drooling friend because I wasn't using it enough. Came back just before retail and started enjoying it, played a bit after retail then got bored with it again. But WoW was still what all the cool kids were into, so I returned and did the grind to 60, raided MC and Onyxia a few times but found it dull, and haven't played since September.

Here's the thing, I can accept that people have different tastes and that no game is for everybody.  If you played to 60 though either you found the game entertaining, or you played for 60 fucking levels despite not having any fun.  One just makes you a whiner for enjoying a game long enough to get that far and then complaining that the game didn't entertain you forever.  The other makes you fucking stupid for investing that much time into something you weren't enjoying because all the other kids were doing it.

[schild]

Luckily, I whine because people won't admit there's nothing new there and just say "it's fun." I don't buy that brand of poo. And that's the reason I got this thread. Luckily I've not had to post much. People are doing my work here for me.

[Shockeye]

Something doesn't have to be new to be fun.

[jpark]

Luckily, I whine because people won't admit there's nothing new there and just say "it's fun." I don't buy that brand of poo. And that's the reason I got this thread. Luckily I've not had to post much. People are doing my work here for me.

Your problem mate is you can't stand being wrong.  So far as I know, all the impressions you had of this game in beta have not changed at all.  Including the one - you know - where you said it was bug ridden and not ready for release.

Come into the light.  Paladin  :-D

[schild]

Luckily, I whine because people won't admit there's nothing new there and just say "it's fun." I don't buy that brand of poo. And that's the reason I got this thread. Luckily I've not had to post much. People are doing my work here for me.

Your problem mate is you can't stand being wrong.  So far as I know, all the impressions you had of this game in beta have not changed at all.  Including the one - you know - where you said it was bug ridden and not ready for release.

Come into the light.  Paladin  :-D

I can stand being wrong. I've admitted numerous times it's the best Dikuclone out there. Unfortunately, it's a dikuclone with things I like a LOT that are missing. Like housing. I love me some housing. Also, I know Blizzard and their rate of change. There is no way the game has been changed in anyway that will make a difference in my opinion. That's simply not how their patches work.

And stop calling me paladin! The light touches me in bad places.

[schild]

Something doesn't have to be new to be fun.

In this particularly case, for me, ya. One of the main reasons i'm having fun in EQ2 is that I like the world more and I have people to play with that have schedules as wonky as mine. Also, housing. And since there aren't 5 million people, it isn't a big endgame raid item whoring clusterfuck.

[Shockeye]

What's the big deal about housing? It's just a pain in the ass as far as I'm concerned.

[schild]

Housing. Is. Awesome.

[Velorath]

I'll admit, I enjoyed decorating my house in DAOC.

[Xanthippe]

I don't just want a house, I want a little farm to retire to.  Preferably with pets.

[Samwise]

I would have quit SWG at least four months earlier than I did if not for housing.

I just liked having some portion of the game world, even if it was a very small one, that I had ownership of and that was unique.  You could go to every gun shop in the galaxy and none of them would look exactly like mine.  Hell, I probably even have a picture of it somewhere.  (rummage)  Yep, here it is:



A friend of mine logged in on the free trial to check out the NGE and informed me that my shop is still completely intact, a year and a half after I unsubbed.  I find that very satisfying, even if I never plan to log in ever again.

[squirrel]

Well i enjoyed the hell out of WoW twice, once on my level 60 horde mage and once on my level 60 ally rogue. And i just finished cancelling my account. I don't hate raiding, in fact i quite enjoyed the Scholo/Strat/BRS/DM progression and MC was fun at first. But there's nothing else to do, and the contrived BG PvP makes me ill. To each their own, i got a great years entertainment out of it.

[Velorath]

I'm playing FFXI again.  But I'm playing classes I know people want so I don't get stuck waiting for groups. (Red Mage main) Also soloing is easier now, you get more XP and you can also get items that give you more XP on top of that. In addition there are some items that do things like let you warp around to different outposts and such. It's definitely a bit friendlier. (Though still very much a group centric game, which is fine by me - I get bored soloing in MMORPGs)

It's actually pretty amazing going back to FFXI. I forgot just how much of a world it feels like compared to EQ2, WoW and their ilk. Especially moving from EQ2 to FFXI. It's just things like the towns in FFXI actually feel like they are towns rather than random houses and shit.

If small to medium sized group of people here started playing FFXI I'd probably go back, but I don't see that happening.  Even when I played a White Mage it was still a pain finding groups some times and there seemed to be quite a few jackasses on the server I was on.  I'm kinda curious about their next MMO, Fantasy Earth.  It's supposed to have some strategy elements involved.  Don't know if it's going to come to the US at all though, or if it will join the likes of Uncharted Waters Online as JP MMO's I'd like to try but can't.

[Tale]

Here's the thing, I can accept that people have different tastes and that no game is for everybody.  If you played to 60 though either you found the game entertaining, or you played for 60 fucking levels despite not having any fun.

My post also contained lines like "Blizzard did an awesome job of turning level grinding and questing into a fun game with the quality of its single-player titles". I had some fun on the way to 60, though the last few levels were a chore, but my motivation was that my friends seemed to be thoroughly enjoying the level 60 game. Unfortunately I didn't.

[Velorath]

Here's the thing, I can accept that people have different tastes and that no game is for everybody.  If you played to 60 though either you found the game entertaining, or you played for 60 fucking levels despite not having any fun.

My post also contained lines like "Blizzard did an awesome job of turning level grinding and questing into a fun game with the quality of its single-player titles". I had some fun on the way to 60, though the last few levels were a chore, but my motivation was that my friends seemed to be thoroughly enjoying the level 60 game. Unfortunately I didn't.

Ok so you had fun for close to 60 levels before you got bored with the game.  I guess maybe I just don't understand what more people would want out of a game.  Does anyone here seriously expect to someday find the video game equivalent of the Everlasting Gobstopper?  Short of adding different kinds of gameplay ala Jump To Lightspeed, I fail to see how or why any game would remain entertaining for any long period of time.  Hell, check out the /played time on your WoW character and then try to think of how many other games have actually held your attention that lone.

My advice would be for people to stop looking for one game to devote their lives to.  Find games that'll interest you for a month or two (or whatever) and then move the fuck on.  When you stop playing a single-player game you just move onto the next one.  You don't sit around and lament that the game is no longer fun to you.  If someone tries a game and just hates it, that's an opinion I can respect.  If someone wants to bitch about a game after 100+ of playing... well then remind me why anyone should care I guess.

[Llava]

If you play through a MMOG once and find it fun but are uninterested in endgame content or replaying what you've done, why are you paying a monthly fee?

You shouldn't.  And that's why it's reasonable to expect entertainment for more than 60 levels in WoW.

Hell, in DAoC the entertainment doesn't start until after the levels.*

*Or "didn't start", maybe they've made the trip to 50 more fun.  Faster and less mind numbing does not necessarily equal more fun, though.  Just less mind numbing.

[Samwise]

If you play through a MMOG once and find it fun but are uninterested in endgame content or replaying what you've done, why are you paying a monthly fee?

You shouldn't.  And that's why it's reasonable to expect entertainment for more than 60 levels in WoW.

Or expect to unsub once you've played as much as you want to play.  I don't understand why so many people dislike the idea of a subscription-based game having a finite length.  As long as you don't do something retarded like pay for a year's worth of a game that has six months worth of gameplay, why does it matter?

[squirrel]

If you play through a MMOG once and find it fun but are uninterested in endgame content or replaying what you've done, why are you paying a monthly fee?

You shouldn't.  And that's why it's reasonable to expect entertainment for more than 60 levels in WoW.

Hell, in DAoC the entertainment doesn't start until after the levels.*

*Or "didn't start", maybe they've made the trip to 50 more fun.  Faster and less mind numbing does not necessarily equal more fun, though.  Just less mind numbing.

Funny i was just chatting with a guildie about this. DAoC and Shadowbane i HATED until level cap and then the fun began. WoW was the exact opposite for me - i LOVED 1-60 but after a few months the endgame bored me.

I will second the fact that it was awesome value for that time though, and i recommend it to people who ask. It's just not as long legged for me as MMORPG's have been.

[Velorath]

If you play through a MMOG once and find it fun but are uninterested in endgame content or replaying what you've done, why are you paying a monthly fee?

You shouldn't.  And that's why it's reasonable to expect entertainment for more than 60 levels in WoW.

Hell, in DAoC the entertainment doesn't start until after the levels.*

*Or "didn't start", maybe they've made the trip to 50 more fun.  Faster and less mind numbing does not necessarily equal more fun, though.  Just less mind numbing.

Generally, most MMO's offer up a free month when you buy the box.  Hell, a lot of them these days are even offering access to beta, and head starts.  If you play enough in that first month you could end up canceling before you've even paid your first month subscription.  Or you can play until you get bored, cancel, and subcribe again if you get the itch to play.

But you're not entitled to endless fun just because you choose to keep paying the monthly fee, because the basic gameplay typically doesn't change and you're going to get sick of it at some point regardless.  Again, using the example of playing up to level 60 in WoW and then burning out...  how many hours of /played time is that typically?  I'm willing to bet it's a lot more hours than most people here would put into 90% of the single player games they play.  Even if you don't stick around for month after month of endgame you're getting more hours of content than you would with most other games.  That's how you justify the monthly fee.  I spent 50 on the game, maybe 45 total on the monthly fee... so for close to the cost of two new games I probably got more hours of entertainment. 

Want to bitch about value?  Complain about most $50 (and now $60 with the 360) games out there being way too short and then I'll probably care.  Think $15 bucks a month though entitles you to a game that will be fun forever and I'll tell you you're fucking dreaming.

[squirrel]

Want to bitch about value?  Complain about most $50 (and now $60 with the 360) games out there being way too short and then I'll probably care.  Think $15 bucks a month though entitles you to a game that will be fun forever and I'll tell you you're fucking dreaming.

FIFA: Road to World Cup on the 360. What a fucking ripoff. No club teams, no tourneys other than WC qualifying and then you can't even play in the WC. Back to EB with you. Serves me right, i knew giving EA money would result in tears.

[Alkiera]

But you're not entitled to endless fun just because you choose to keep paying the monthly fee, because the basic gameplay typically doesn't change and you're going to get sick of it at some point regardless.  Again, using the example of playing up to level 60 in WoW and then burning out...  how many hours of /played time is that typically?  I'm willing to bet it's a lot more hours than most people here would put into 90% of the single player games they play.  Even if you don't stick around for month after month of endgame you're getting more hours of content than you would with most other games.  That's how you justify the monthly fee.  I spent 50 on the game, maybe 45 total on the monthly fee... so for close to the cost of two new games I probably got more hours of entertainment. 

Want to bitch about value?  Complain about most $50 (and now $60 with the 360) games out there being way too short and then I'll probably care.  Think $15 bucks a month though entitles you to a game that will be fun forever and I'll tell you you're fucking dreaming.

Agreed.  And many people want to claim that because MMOs are a service, they should get entertainment value equal to other services they pay for, like TV.  Perhaps if we had tons and tons of people paying $75+ per month for an MMO, they'd be able to hire enough content people able to keep up with players.  Or at least do a better job than they do now.  The problem is, no one is willing to pay $75/mo for a game.  Why they do it for TV, I have no idea.

Alkiera

[cevik]

Agreed.  And many people want to claim that because MMOs are a service, they should get entertainment value equal to other services they pay for, like TV.  Perhaps if we had tons and tons of people paying $75+ per month for an MMO, they'd be able to hire enough content people able to keep up with players.  Or at least do a better job than they do now.  The problem is, no one is willing to pay $75/mo for a game.  Why they do it for TV, I have no idea.

Alkiera

And just like with television, eventually the characters have been developed, the stories have been told, the content has been used, and your $75 a month cable bill goes towards paying for a different show about 6 single friends living in New York.

Nothing is endless.

[Ironwood]

Um.  If you're going to start talking about TV's, you need to realise the enormous importance of networks and Advertising subsidies.

We want neither in Mmmogs.

[Velorath]

As far as monthly fees go, I think SOE has the right idea with their Station Pass.  A bunch of different kinds of MMO's for about $22 a month.  Their failure is that few of those games are any good.

[cevik]

Housing. Is. Awesome.

Man I just so hate housing in a game.  The last thing I need is some other useless thing to waste my time when I log in.  My character doesn't need a place to live while I'm offline (and he certainly doesn't need a place to sit and stare at walls when I'm online!).  A place to store stuff can be accomplished with a bank or more bags or whatever less pain in the ass system the developers want to use.  I don't need another money sink.  I do not play to interior decorate.  I don't care for any more virtual e-peen collectors garbage to have (I'm rich in game, my house is teh big!!!1!).  I don't need an excuse to not cancel my account when I'm done with the game (I'm bored to tears by this game, but I'm going to pay $14.95 X 20 ad nauseum so that my e-peen city doesn't poof!).  I HATE the clutter housing puts in game (SWG sucked ass because of all the buildings anywhere I ran).  Housing fucking sucks, I hate it, I hope it stops being a "feature" that is added to these games.