Teppy discusses changes for the next telling of A Tale in the Desert

[Nebu]

Pharoah or Andrew Tepper, lead designer of the title "A Tale in the Desert" or ATitD had an open channel discussion today (January 8, 1pm est) of his views for the direction in the next "telling" of his game.  The text of which can be viewed here.

Changes proposed:

1. The removal of Conflict as a discipline and the creation of a new discipline: Harmony
2. A new events calendar
3. The introduction of levels
4. A new initiation for the Thought discipline. 
5. Return to the more frantic pace observed in the initial telling or T1.

I've included my initial reaction (reposted from the ATitD boards) for your reading pleasure.

Interesting ideas... won't fix what ails this title.

The removal of Conflict and the creation of the Harmony Discipline
- This attempts to reward people that were willing to do the same thing without the reward. People entering the discipline will artificially attempt to do what others have been doing out of desire/passion. This will provide a temporary artificial boost, but won't do much for the world as a whole over the long haul.

The new calendar
- Will help those that don't post here or read the wiki (i.e. the short term players). Again, this will be a minor aid geared at players unlikely to stay anyway.

The introduction of levels
- Instant gratification attempt to retain those that will still leave the game. Perhaps the epeen ranking system will help keep some in the game longer than they might have. This is a solid business decision, but something I feel clouds the scope of this title.

The new Thought initiation
- Interesting concept, but displaced energy. Too much energy focused on "tests", too little energy focused on removal of the mundane.

Summary: The game needs more interesting things to do, more ways to encourage community, and fewer grinds that beg to be macroed. I'm not seeing how any of the things discussed in the open chat will accomplish this. Tests will still be gamed. New players will still leave newbie island and see 2 people on the horizon. Players that enjoy solo play will still feel like they are second-class citizens.

Long travel times, organizational nightmares, and mind-numbing grinds are the reasons that most people leave early. Long waits for tech and new tests are the reasons the veterans leave. Removal of those hurdles would be key (in my opinion) and should be the focus of change for the next telling. The comment about reinstalling the more frantic pace for T3 was the most positive bit that I saw.

Enjoy!

[Nyght]

I don't know that your gonna get a lot of reaction to that Nebu, because those three word descriptions don't tell anyone a lot. Unfortunately, there is no condensed feature description, so for those willing to slug it out with a chat log, they can find it here

The levels thing is ranking for completeing low level goals within each larger test and is the most significant change. Those with ATITD play time will understand. The rest of you probably dont care or are just sol. This will be much easier to impliement on some tests then others. Teppy believes this will help players transistion to the 'ATITD playstyle'.

Overall, it appears the approach and flavor of the game remains unchanged; a building game early on transistioning to a more achievement based as you progress into the game.

[Nebu]

I don't know that your gonna get a lot of reaction to that Nebu, because those three word descriptions don't tell anyone a lot. Unfortunately, there is no condensed feature description, so for those willing to slug it out with a chat log, they can find it here

I wasn't really going for a reaction, per se, so much as just airing my views.  As for posting this, I wanted the few that are familiar with the title to have a look at the chat log and make up their minds for themselves.  I realize that few people have played the game, I just meant this as an update for those that have. 

The one thing that Teppy stated that I feel is dead on is that ATitD "feels like a toy" rather than a game. I tend to agree with Teppy on this one and wonder how he will manage to change that in the future... or if he will even attempt to.

[tazelbain]

>1. The removal of Conflict as a discipline and the creation of a new discipline: Harmony
Conflict was the least grindy. He had to remove it.

Levels of what?

Teppy's Ivory Tower is so high, he can't see the workers toil below.

[Nebu]

Teppy argues that people shy away from conflict because the loss rate was high.  I think that this is his attemt to dumb the game down for the masses.  Most people flock to mmogs because even with limited skill you still get plenty of pats on the back (DING gratz!).  I guess he thinks that more pats on the back = happier customer base = longer sub retention.  I'm sure he's partially right, but it's not going to fix the core issues that this game has. 

I still think that though the grinds aren't as clear as in other mmogs, that ATitD has some of the worst grinds I've seen in a game to date.  I think the guy really needs to take a look at his game from the solo/casual gamer's perspective before he can even begin to attempt to fix it.  The fact that most players dedicated to the game run it in the background while doing something they really enjoy should be a tell... don't you think?

[Nyght]

The one thing that Teppy stated that I feel is dead on is that ATitD "feels like a toy" rather than a game. I tend to agree with Teppy on this one and wonder how he will manage to change that in the future... or if he will even attempt to.

Think you should re-read that:

Player: As it is now, ATITD feels like a TOY, not a game. Same with There, or Second Life, or AlphaWorlds.

Pharaoh: Really? I think that because there are big goals, it's a game, where those are what I'd call "virtual worlds".

He thinks it's a game and it is for most folks after you get into it a ways. It just the early game that feels so VW.

[Akkori]

I really hope the graphics get upgraded a bit. Thats going to be a bit of a downer for anyone coming from any of the bigger games. And they really should add in a national currency. It would open a lot of doors for Merchants.

[Nebu]

Think you should re-read that:

Player: As it is now, ATITD feels like a TOY, not a game. Same with There, or Second Life, or AlphaWorlds.

Pharaoh: Really? I think that because there are big goals, it's a game, where those are what I'd call "virtual worlds".

He thinks it's a game and it is for most folks after you get into it a ways. It just the early game that feels so VW.

You're right... I guess I gave him more credit than he deserved.

[Nyght]

I really hope the graphics get upgraded a bit. Thats going to be a bit of a downer for anyone coming from any of the bigger games. And they really should add in a national currency. It would open a lot of doors for Merchants.

No indications of either or any other improvements to chat, trade, or any other popular 'this needs improvement' topics.

Letting the days go by, letting the Nile hold me down...

[Akkori]

Well, if it's true that he is dividing his time between atitd and this other game, then I guess we cant expect much from him. Too bad. I really feel this game could be a real winner in the niche market. It has a lot of great things that could go main(niche)stream with just a couple little tweaks and upgrades. I will probably still sign up again for Tale3. I'm not in any game right now, so it would be something to do. (unless DnL gets their shit together)...

[Xanthippe]

I could not play ATitD for along at a time without my hands getting sore due to the constant mouse use.  Not being able to use the keyboard for certain tasks was a real showstopper for me.

The other thing I didn't enjoy about the game was that there was a decided lack of conflict.  I don't enjoy player drama, that's not what I'm talking about, but conflict in the sense of political intrigue or monster killing or war.  I guess for me, it's a necessity. The Sims suffered from the same problem.  Maybe this is why these things are more like toys than games.

[Nebu]

I could not play ATitD for along at a time without my hands getting sore due to the constant mouse use.  Not being able to use the keyboard for certain tasks was a real showstopper for me.

The other thing I didn't enjoy about the game was that there was a decided lack of conflict.  I don't enjoy player drama, that's not what I'm talking about, but conflict in the sense of political intrigue or monster killing or war.  I guess for me, it's a necessity. The Sims suffered from the same problem.  Maybe this is why these things are more like toys than games.

1) The mouse thing is very true.  Most dedicated players rapidly develop mouse macro programs to do repetitive chores.  Macros are allowed as long as they are attended... this fact signifies to me that some of the core elements of this game are badly broken.  To make it even better, the mouse-intensive chores are coupled to a tremendous grind that can burnout even the most hardcore quickly. 

2) Conflict is lacking but can be created artificially.  I created a bit in the first telling through economic means (price undercutting etc), but the reality is that most conflict remains in griefing and/or obstructionist behavior (which I won't take part in).  This is more as you describe as drama rather than real conflict, so I agree with you there as well. There is plenty of competition in some of the tests, but most of the outcomes are dictated by who had more time rather than who was the better player.  The art discipline is possibly the one where being the best (i.e. creative and original) can produce the best outcome.  It's hard to say if competition = conflict for many tests.  I know the obelisk test in T1 seemed like conflict at times, but again is really more of a contest. 

The positive: If you like to build stuff and explore, this game is great.  The tech trees are interesting and sensible.  The playerbase is comprised of mostly intelligent people making social interaction some of the best in any mmog... that is if you can ever find people to interact with.  The ability to create and participate in the legal system is interesting and the regional research and projects can be quite fun. 

The negative: Forced interaction, obscene grinds, and long travel times in a huge world with a sparce population.

I'm likely to play at the start of telling 3, but there's no knowing how fast I'll burnout. 

[Samwise]

If not for the obscene grind I think this'd be my perfect game.  Unfortunately I've lost all patience for grinding.

[Akkori]

Teppy should adapt the Eve Online skill-aquisition method. Making it time based would allow players to spend more time interacting... and slate-hunting....

[Krakrok]

Yup. I can decide not to play for days on EVE and I'm catassing with the best of them without even being online. Not only that but you play the game in your head by thinking about what skills you need to train next etc. Planning your next move as it were.

And ATITD needs an affiliate program. More MMOGs need affiliate programs in general (Puzzle Pirates and EVE both have one).

[Nebu]

ATitD does actually have something akin to Eve in that you do accumulate your choice of things while offline.  You can acquire travel time to any waypoint or a commodity that you have already gathered to some minimum threashold (grass, carrots, barley, etc.).  It's not nearly as nice as what you see in Eve, but it's better than nothing.

[Akkori]

Yeah, the "Offline Chores" is helpful, and its a great target for a new player. Its a little hard to get the veggies though. I wish he'd add more items there. Or maybe persistent Farms that produce veggies, and work just like rabbit hutches or sheep pens.

My biggest beef with the game is that there is no limit to how fast and how much you can learn. Its overwhelming. Sometime around my second week there, I decided I was tired of getting glimpses of skills, and spent several hours visiting Universities in each region to learn the free skills they were teaching. By the time I was done, I knew more than a dozen things that I would likely never get a chance to use. I even knew a couple skills that long-time players didnt because they hadnt gotten around to going to that Univ and learning it. It was frustrating to see the potential to do and build all these cools things, and yet know that it would take months and months before I could hope to participate. I have always been a fan of limited skills, or a slow and measured increase in knowledge. Besides, if everyone knows all the same skills, there is less likely to be any players who produce "niche" stuff.

[Nyght]

My biggest beef with the game is that there is no limit to how fast and how much you can learn. Its overwhelming. Sometime around my second week there, I decided I was tired of getting glimpses of skills, and spent several hours visiting Universities in each region to learn the free skills they were teaching. By the time I was done, I knew more than a dozen things that I would likely never get a chance to use. I even knew a couple skills that long-time players didnt because they hadnt gotten around to going to that Univ and learning it. It was frustrating to see the potential to do and build all these cools things, and yet know that it would take months and months before I could hope to participate. I have always been a fan of limited skills, or a slow and measured increase in knowledge. Besides, if everyone knows all the same skills, there is less likely to be any players who produce "niche" stuff.

So, you know that there is this new level system proposed where completeing supposedly easy, not too grindy tasks that are introductions to the various tests, will reward you with levels. If those levels were used to gate the access to skills and techs, maybe to the point you don't even see them on the menus, would this be a positive improvement?

[Nebu]

So, you know that there is this new level system proposed where completeing supposedly easy, not too grindy tasks that are introductions to the various tests, will reward you with levels. If those levels were used to gate the access to skills and techs, maybe to the point you don't even see them on the menus, would this be a positive improvement?

While levels may be a "hook" to keep new players a little longer, I don't see it as anything that will improve the game.  While the concept behind ATitD is outstanding, the implementation still needs work.  All you have to do is make 10,000 charcoal or build an obelisk to see the game-breaking grinds.  More mini-games, more advancement opportunities toward automation, more people, and faster travel might be a better thing to focus on. 

[tazelbain]

Levels would be good as mechinism to encourage participation in voting and tech research.  Tie in some fun but not manditory prizes like emotes and skills to make decorative objects. 

[Akkori]

Yes, I liked the levels proposal, although I dont like levels generally. If, *IF* he manages to tie in levels with the existing and very cool skill system, it should work pretty well. And, unless I am mistaken, wouldnt it be a new development in MMO's?

[Nyght]

Yes, I liked the levels proposal, although I dont like levels generally. If, *IF* he manages to tie in levels with the existing and very cool skill system, it should work pretty well. And, unless I am mistaken, wouldnt it be a new development in MMO's?

Well, to be clear, Teppy never said that.. I did. Here's what he said:

Certain skills, Test signups, even events, would require a certain minimum level.  And not a real high level...

But since I have heard that complaint a time or two from others, particularly back in the first telling, I wanted your opinion.

[Soln]

I enjoy ATiTD a lot and will resub for Tale3, but everything said is true and in particular they add WASD movement. 

The only sort of complaint I had was the lack of interaction.   The players are mature and helpful (for the most part) with suggestions, but some forced group-play mechanic might be helpful.  It can be awfully barren otherwise, looking for slate...  I just would've liked to have just seen more other players I guess.  Felt too RPG at times.  But I didn't get too far unfortunately.  /lame