XBox 360 scratches discs

[Brolan]

I found this out the hard way; my boys were having problems loading one of the British missions in COD 2 so I took a look at the disc thinking it might be dirty.  I found deep circular scratches in the disk.  After doing some searches I found articles about other people having the same problems.

Basically if you move the console even one degree while it is running or put anything on the top of it (when it is lying on its side) it causes the laser housing to contact the disk.  Great design.

[Signe]

Ouchie!  If you have a typical family with 2 kids and a pet, it's hard to keep everything perfectly still. 

[Margalis]

For some reason some people STILL don't get the fact that a game console is a consumer electronics device. A console is really closer to a discman than it is to a computer. Not architecture wise but in terms of design and use.

Nintendo seems to be the only hardware manufacturer that can make consoles that don't have horrendous first-gen issues. Yes, some Nintendo consoles have had problems but not at nearly the rate of other manufacturers.

[Jeff Kelly]

For some reason some people STILL don't get the fact that a game console is a consumer electronics device. A console is really closer to a discman than it is to a computer. Not architecture wise but in terms of design and use.

Yes and all consumer electronics devices I know of are by design stackable. A laser housing that touches the disc if another component (or your cat) sits on top of your shiny new x-box is bad design and nothing else. I'd laugh at the first one who'd try to tell me that I shouldn't put any other high-fi component on top of my Compact-Disc player because it might damage my disc and wouldn't probably ever buy anything from such a company again.

[Tebonas]

Waiting for the first Servicepack obviously isn't only for software anymore when you buy Microsoft products.

The whole thing was rushed to be ready for the Christmas market, and it really shows.

[schild]

I don't buy that brand of bullshit. Neither me nor any of my friends who have a 360 have had nary a hitch. If there's problems, it's on the consumer end. This ain't no first generation PS2.

[Tebonas]

So basically everybody is a liar because you don't have problems?

I don't know one way or the other because I don't own a single piece of Microsoft hardware. but that sounds a bit far fetched.

[schild]

It's not that everyone is a liar. Just because the xbox 360 can be sat vertically doesn't mean it should be. And most CD Roms will scratch discs if they aren't level. More than that, anything that isn't made for stacking shouldn't be stacked. Would you stack something on top of the Playstation 2? Hell no, why would you do it on the 360? Also, 360 over heating? Take it out of the goddamn tight home theater unit or take it off the carpeting. Treat it like a computer, it's more powerful than any computer you're buying these days and sucks up just as much power if not more. And you don't have the ability to slap a good cooling unit on it.

[eldaec]

Treat it like a computer, it's more powerful than any computer you're buying these days and sucks up just as much power if not more. And you don't have the ability to slap a good cooling unit on it.

Obviously the 'more powerful than a PC' argument has been rehearsed before. But the 'sucks up more power' one is new.

XBox 360s only use 160W of power.

They have no right to be overheating anything, seems someone took the same approach to specing the PSU as they generally do when supplying these things with RAM. (From my very limited understanding of things Xbox, the overheating was down to the PSU being stuffed out of sight behind the home cinema stack rather than the box itself)

As for the disc scratching. /shrug. For better or worse each generation of consoles pushes the damn things out to a wider and wider market, it's always going to mean users will find new ways to abuse them, and so I guess these things are going to happen.

At least it teaches the kids how to look after electronics before they get a real computer.

[schild]

Given the size of the PSU and the power of the xbox vs the size of my entire computer and the wattage on my power supply, I have a tough time buying that the xbox only pulls 160W. I'm probably completely wrong and the specsheets would prove me wrong, so I've no problem admitting that. My gripe comes from the fact my computer pulls 360 watts and is less than double the size of the 360 PSU. Desktop computers are unoptimized pieces of shit.

[Tebonas]

To be fair there are optimized Desktop computers as well and you have to oversize the power supply if you don't know beforehand what it will supply power to.

[eldaec]

Desktop computers are generally optimized components put together by unoptimized pieces of shit.

Consoles are a bag of unoptimized bargin bin components built by shiny optimized robots.

That, of course, is half the fun of your PC.


Your desktop PSU has to fit in a desktop PSU space, so it got designed to do that; XBoxes have no such restriction so they won't waste time and money on it.


PS. Because I'm (a) nice (b) paranoid (c) back at work [delete as applicable], I looked for confirmation on Xbox power, it didn't take long...

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=xbox+360+power+watt&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

[schild]

Consoles WERE unoptimized bargain bin components. There's nothing unoptimized about the Gamecube, PS2, or 360. The RSX on the PS3 will be an unoptimized piece of shit while the rest will be performance art. The Revolution is an unknown.

Edit: Oh, and I give it 6 months and someone will come out with a PSU for the 360 that's 1/3 the size of the current one.

[Trippy]

Given the size of the PSU and the power of the xbox vs the size of my entire computer and the wattage on my power supply, I have a tough time buying that the xbox only pulls 160W. I'm probably completely wrong and the specsheets would prove me wrong, so I've no problem admitting that. My gripe comes from the fact my computer pulls 360 watts and is less than double the size of the 360 PSU. Desktop computers are unoptimized pieces of shit.

You are confusing the maximum power output of your power supply with the actual amount it puts out to power the components in your computer. As you can see here an Athon 64 X2 4400+ with a 7800 GT draws about 200 Watts under full load. And that includes a 10K RPM hard drive, DVD drive, and 1 GB of RAM. Here's another article that gives a more detailed breakdown of power draw from the major computer subsystems. This is how companies like Shuttle can power their XPC systems with dinky (by destkop standards) 200W - 250W power supplies, though some of Shuttle's high end boxes do include 350W power supplies now.

[schild]

My 2 year old Shuttle came with a 350. I still don't see how a 360 runs efficiently at 160 - or rather - I don't see how the power supply or 360 could possibly overheat unless there was zero air flow to either/both.

[Shockeye]

schild is right, people are just making this disc scratching stuff up.

GameFly Rental Service Relays Xbox 360 Disc Scratching Problems

According to reports obtained by Gamasutra, a number of subscribers to the North American GameFly video game rental service have received messages regarding an Xbox 360 hardware fault that potentially scratches game discs, making them unplayable.

The issue has previously been discussed at length on a number of fan websites, with the problem being particularly pronounced if users move the Xbox 360 while it is in use. However, some consumers are reporting that their Xbox 360 hardware will scratch discs without being moved.

The disc scratching problem is evidently widespread enough that GameFly has prepared a 'form letter' to send to all consumers who return Xbox 360 discs with defects on them, commenting:

"We have received reports that certain XBOX 360 consoles have caused damage to GameFly videogames. Unfortunately, we have been notified that you recently returned a damaged XBOX 360 game.

As a precaution, we have removed all XBOX 360 games from your GameQ. Please contact Microsoft at 1-800-4MY-XBOX. Please do not rent XBOX 360 games until you have resolved this issue.

In the future, should GameFly receive XBOX 360 games from you that have been damaged, you will be charged a replacement fee."

Representatives from GameFly had not returned calls inquiring about the extent of the problem by press time. Microsoft itself has previously commented to VNUNet regarding post-launch Xbox 360 technical issues: "We have received a few isolated reports of consoles not working as expected. The call rate is well below what you'd expect for a consumer electronics product of this complexity."

Just because you treat your 360 like your firstborn, schild, doesn't mean everyone else does. In fact, many people have kids and kids are unpredictable. Microsoft designed the 360 poorly from the overheating issue and the disc scratching issue. There's enough concern to warrant not buying a 360 until these design problems are resolved in the first hardware revision. Joe Sixpack doesn't give a shit if it's as powerful as a computer or what-not. If it looks like a console and tastes like a console, it's a console.

[Trippy]

I still don't see how a 360 runs efficiently at 160 - or rather - I don't see how the power supply or 360 could possibly overheat unless there was zero air flow to either/both.

Well given that the power brick is fanless it's not hard to imagine how it could "overheating". The real question is why are high power supply temperatures affecting the power output, if at all (somebody needs to hook that thing up to a Kill-A-Watt or something to test this out). Good PC power supplies will maintain their output to a max operating temperature of 50 C or so (and then fall off from there) while cheapo PC power supplies often drop their output well below 50 C. Did Microsoft try to save a few bucks per system and spec out a power brick that cuts its output at a relatively low max operating temperature? Or maybe their supplier isn't building the bricks to proper spec?

[schild]

Just because you treat your 360 like your firstborn, schild, doesn't mean everyone else does. In fact, many people have kids and kids are unpredictable. Microsoft designed the 360 poorly from the overheating issue and the disc scratching issue. There's enough concern to warrant not buying a 360 until these design problems are resolved in the first hardware revision. Joe Sixpack doesn't give a shit if it's as powerful as a computer or what-not. If it looks like a console and tastes like a console, it's a console.

Fuck kids and Joe Sixpack. If I bought a $400 TOY I wouldn't let my kids anywhere near the damn thing. It's like the masculine version of fine china. Kids don't play with their mommy's china and they don't come within 10 feet of daddy's electronics. Otherwise, they deserve scratched discs and overheating units. For the very few problem cases that are probably Microsoft's direct fault, I'm pretty confident that MS is expediting repair on those units. Otherwise, what did you want me to say? Awww, poor guy got screwed because Microsoft didn't try the 360 out on a shag carpet with the power supply being sat on by a cat? /sadf.

[Murgos]

Well given that the power brick is fanless it's not hard to imagine how it could "overheating". The real question is why are high power supply temperatures affecting the power output, if at all (somebody needs to hook that thing up to a Kill-A-Watt or something to test this out).

From a quantum physics POV electron drift mobility is inversly proportional to temperature.

More heat = less current.

Although this is probably a case of cheap parts and shoddy manufacture.

[Jeff Kelly]

Consoles WERE unoptimized bargain bin components. There's nothing unoptimized about the Gamecube, PS2, or 360. The RSX on the PS3 will be an unoptimized piece of shit while the rest will be performance art. The Revolution is an unknown.

Edit: Oh, and I give it 6 months and someone will come out with a PSU for the 360 that's 1/3 the size of the current one.

Oh come on consoles are still largely a bunch of bargain bin components put together. How else could you keep your $299 price point? The case looks shiny and they might have even designed some kind of heat dissipation solution and optimized the layout of components but they still buy everything from the cheapest supplier available. Economics of scale have to be taken into account yeah but a prt from the processor everything else is of the shelf components put together on a custom designed motherboard and a custom designed case and that is something that every EE graduate can do and that you can get from any cheap chinese oem for a dime.

What takes real engineering is the design of the heat dissipation system not exactly something where the 360 shines

The DVD drive is most certainly cheap OEM stuff from the lowest bidder and the PSU most probable the cheapest design that they could get away with when regarding conformance to standards. One could built a 200 W PSU that doesn't need a fan or two but that would be more expensive.

You can be all the X-Box 360 fanboi you want, I don't care but don't be silly. The 360 costs 299 dollars and has a cutting edge processor and video subsystem a DVD drive and everything else that is needed to make it a game console. At the moment the processor itself in my estimate takes up 3/4 of the budget for the whole console.

Face it even the newest shiniest cutting edge console baby jesus is featuring the most low cost solutions from the cheapest suppliers that those companies can get away with otherwise, even with subsidies, they wouldn't be able to keep the 299/399 pricepoint especially with version 1.0 of the hardware.

[schild]

Although this is probably a case of cheap parts and shoddy manufacture.

I don't know, the damn thing seems expertly designed. The connection at the 360 is the single most sturdy connection I've seen ona  console to date. It's like one of those plugs Dr. Octopus had in Spiderman 2. Only stronger. I think whoever is making the passive cooling unit is the weak link.

[Murgos]

Fuck kids and Joe Sixpack. If I bought a $400 TOY I wouldn't let my kids anywhere near the damn thing. It's like the masculine version of fine china. Kids don't play with their mommy's china and they don't come within 10 feet of daddy's electronics. Otherwise, they deserve scratched discs and overheating units. For the very few problem cases that are probably Microsoft's direct fault, I'm pretty confident that MS is expediting repair on those units. Otherwise, what did you want me to say? Awww, poor guy got screwed because Microsoft didn't try the 360 out on a shag carpet with the power supply being sat on by a cat? /sadf.

Crappy engineering is crappy engineering.  The people who designed the part knew exactly what kind of conditions would be required for it not to fail and they decided to stick it to the consumer rather than build in a little extra leeway.  Fanbois r luv.

[schild]

I had a response for Jeff Kelly. But it's been deleted since Murgos decided to play the fanboi card on me also.

Are you people fucking buffoons? Is this like a circus act? Have you ever had to help the video game consuming public? These motherfuckers have no clue what they're doing. The engineers at MS could have made the best goddamn piece of equipment in the universe and there still would have been widespread problems complained about on the intarweb. That was no amount of little extra leeway anyway could have put into the system design. This isn't about being a fanboi, this is about knowing the consumer. Just wait until there are widespread complaints about the Nintendo slot loading drive on the Revolution (or the PS3). People will jam discs in them and no amount of testing from the labs will protect Sony and Nintendo from redneck customers with heavy hands. THE FIRST GEN DVDROMS ARE TEH SUXX0RS LOL.

Seriously, more often than not, it's the consumers fault. So as I said earlier, fuck'em. Take better care of your shit.

[Merusk]

Why do you guys always go down this road with Schild on the hardware front?  He lives in another world where electronics are children and anyone who says they should be durable end-user devicesjust 'dont get it' or don't take care of their shit. He's a geek to the Nth degree about this type of thing, and neither party can see the other's case.

[Tebonas]

I guess they go for something quotable once another company with better work ethics makes a comparable console without all those faults and he will have to eat his words.

Of course then it will be "They were the first, so the others profited from their pioneer work", so its futile anyway.

[Signe]

I just hang around him because someone told me he was one of the cool kids.

I should think, however, that most people buy these things for their kids and they should be, at least, somewhat durable.  You can stick the thing in a cage on a pedestal and some 13 year old with huge feet he has no control over, will find a way to knock it over.  That over heating problem was in the plain old Xbox, too.  I received a recall letter from them about it.  You would think they'd fix that issue for their $400 model.

[Sky]

I love when schild gets all worked up because people don't build shrines for their consoles.

My xbox sits on carpet when I use it, but the cat won't sit on it.

[schild]

Why do you guys always go down this road with Schild on the hardware front?  He lives in another world where electronics are children and anyone who says they should be durable end-user devices just 'dont get it' or don't take care of their shit. He's a geek to the Nth degree about this type of thing, and neither party can see the other's case.

Yes, my ability to not have broken hardware and to never having experienced ANY of the problems on ANY of the consoles that people talk about here or anywhere surely is a fault of mine. I mean, comeon, I'm MR. First Gen Hardware. At least ONE of my consoles surely should have fucked up by now. But no, Guitar Hero broke one and monster cables (wretched pieces of shit) wrecked the A/V inputs on another. Yes, I'm the funky outlier.

I guess they go for something quotable once another company with better work ethics makes a comparable console without all those faults and he will have to eat his words.

If the PS3 and Revolution have no problems, I'll gladly eat my words. I just don't see it happening. Nintendo normally would be the obvious frontrunner here but now that they're switching to a drive that plays both Gamecube and the new almost regular sized discs along with the whole aforementioned slot loading design decision, I smell trouble.

Of course then it will be "They were the first, so the others profited from their pioneer work", so its futile anyway.

Now that is totally not my style. I could care less who profited from whoever's pioneer work. I'd be the last one to say Everquest was better than WoW or that DnD is obviously better than any console RPG. Or that the original Gameboy is the only portable worth having. Oh, and how could we forget about the great How Many Generations of Consoles argument of 04? Basically, your ass is talking. I don't know how it sprouted hands and got to the keyboard, but there it is.

[Jeff Kelly]

Are you people fucking buffoons? Is this like a circus act? Have you ever had to help the video game consuming public?

No but I work as a systems designer in germany and the first thing our customers ask when they want us to design hardware is "how can we cut the costs and get away with it". The reality is that usually the cheapest thing is chosen that barely satisfies the requirements for the components.

If too many units of a certain kind of hardware die the contract is given to another china manufacturer who will be more than eager to deliver especially when it is such a large contract as microsoft

I can relate to the fact that you are infatuated by your 360 I am a technophile myself and own quite a bit of high end tech toys (why would I be here otherwise?) but saying that the designers of the 360 have somehow found the holy grail of hardware quality when faced with economic realities is somewhat naive.

1st generation PS2 drives died like flies because they chose cheap hardware, hell even psones to this day die like flies. Consoles are a commodity and the cost of the parts of the 360 are already high enough that Microsoft has to subsidy each console with a significant amount of their own money. They will cut costs left and right, they will pressure suppliers to reduce rates or risk cancellation of the contracts, everybody in the consumer electronics business does it otherwise you wouldn't be able to buy shit for $99 at Wal Mart.

I do not know whether or not these scratches occur because of a hardware fault or not I just tried to argue your assumption that PS3 hardware=crap, XBOX360 hardware=robot jesus

These motherfuckers have no clue what they're doing. The engineers at MS could have made the best goddamn piece of equipment in the universe and there still would have been widespread problems complained about on the intarweb.

Yeah but then you wouldn't be able to buy it for $299. After previous experiences with expensive shit dying because of crappy parts (blown up capacitors, parts dropping of mainboards because the system was getting too hot etc.) and my experiences in the field developing hardware and software I refuse to buy the first revision of anything.

People are idiots yes I agree but more and more companies use them to beta test their hardware and if I had to place a bet whether or not this was a design issue or customer incompetence I'd bet the money on the former.

[eldaec]

lol. internet.

[schild]

I do not know whether or not these scratches occur because of a hardware fault or not I just tried to argue your assumption that PS3 hardware=crap, XBOX360 hardware=robot jesus

Ohhhhhh, I see the problem here. No. See, words are hard. I'll try that again. Slot loading cd readers are notorious for breaking. You push a CD or DVD or whatever too hard into a slot loader and you will eventually break off the arm that grabs it, or completely grind the little wheel that pulls the arm in down to nothing. The xbox 360 hardware is by no means robot jesus, but the disc scratching is happening because of movement occuring to the xbox while the reader is reading. Like someone picks up an 360 after they've turned it on or it's on an unstable surface. Basically, it's totally user error. As the first post said, even one degree of movement. Well, sit the goddamn thing on a flat surface and don't move it after the drive closes. It's Not That Hard.

Yes, they could have made it a top loader with a littler clapper of a CD holder and fixed the whole problem (think Gamecube or PS2 slim), but man, I'd rather have that tray than a slot loader. But that doesn't result in bias. I'll get a PS3 on day one. I love the playstation and will cherish it and will buy every turn-based strategy game and survival horror title that comes out for it. Unfortunately I'm going to have to baby the thing more than the 360.

Yeah but then you wouldn't be able to buy it for $299. After previous experiences with expensive shit dying because of crappy parts (blown up capacitors, parts dropping of mainboards because the system was getting too hot etc.) and my experiences in the field developing hardware and software I refuse to buy the first revision of anything.

People are idiots yes I agree but more and more companies use them to beta test their hardware and if I had to place a bet whether or not this was a design issue or customer incompetence I'd bet the money on the former.

I gotta be honest, after what you've said, I just don't want to buy anything from your company.   And you gotta stop using that $299.99 number. The xbox 360 costs $400. That other crippled thing? That's not real.

[Tebonas]

I gotta be honest as well. You might not say that and I certainly take your word for it if you say so. But it will be said and my hatred for those apologists is boundless and it might have swapped over to you.

[Sky]

Like someone picks up an 360 after they've turned it on or it's on an unstable surface. Basically, it's totally user error. As the first post said, even one degree of movement. Well, sit the goddamn thing on a flat surface and don't move it after the drive closes. It's Not That Hard.

And that's completely unrealistic in most households I've ever been into.

"DON'T WALK NEAR THE TV...THE XBOX IS ON!!"

[Rasix]

There hasn't been a console invented where I haven't tripped on the controller cord causing some sort of minor catastrophy. 

[Signe]

Me too.  I'm a disaster area all on my own.  I can trip over something in the next room, especially if there's an important reason for it not to be moved... just ask my husband.  And what about all those poor people in California?  They have to buy a new Xbox everytime the earth moves?  That's just mean.