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Author Topic: Why Do I Suck at Combat?  (Read 6554 times)
HaemishM
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Prevent all damage that would be dealt to you and other troops you control.


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on: December 21, 2005, 01:26:53 PM

You guys know me, but I'm going to put this disclaimer in anyway. I am not a numbers guy. I am not a min-maxer by any stretch of the imagination. I'm also not very sociable, and tend to solo in the last few MMOG's. I understand that DDO is meant to be a group-based game, and I'm ok with that. I'm ok with the idea that some classes will solo better than others, especially classes that can heal or self-heal or self-buff; that is the nature of class-based systems, IMO.

But I can't help but think something is wrong in combat land. I can't kill shit solo. Not even 1-on-1. I understand if I get kaked by two or three mobs at a time. But I can't kill shit solo. About the only thing I seem to have a hope of killing solo is CR .25 kobolds. Sometimes, when I actually hit, I can one-shot them with a sneak attack. Anything above a .25 CR and I have serious problems even 1-on-1.

Class: Rogue
Race: Human
Dex: 16 (So +2 bonuses)
Str: 13 (So a +1 bonus)
Feats of import: Heroic Toughness and Toughness
HP: 30
Armor: Studded Leather (best AC of the things I can find to buy without any non-proficiency penalties)
AC: 16 (+2) or with the shield 17(+2)
Action Point Spend on Improved Stealth

I've tried it using a rapier (+2 to hit bonus for proficiency), a rapier and shield (not proficient with the shield, but I still get a +1 to both rapier and shield attacks), a nice mace, a sickle and a shortbow. Damage doesn't seem to be an issue, it's actually hitting anything that's an issue. I've tried tumbling to get behind mobs as well as avoid hits, and sometimes get hits but most often take more than I give.

I've tried a number of the level 1 quests, and only level 1 quests. Kenebrooke's Basement today? Died to the first damn bandit. A litany of misses. The Library Quest? I get overwhelmed by zombies, which I think are all CR .50. Again, the problem isn't damage, it's actually getting a hit on something.

I tried the Guard Tember Waterworks Quest today. The CR .25 kobolds I can take. But you put a CR 1.00 in there, and I'm dead. I survived a fight with a .25 Kobold and a 1.00 Kobold Thrower by sheer luck (and with few HP).

I'll even illustrate what I mean. I come upon an encounter stealthed. Two Kobold Warriors (CR 1.00). I can approach them from a distance, where they don't see me, climb up on a crate and ready my shortbow (which I'm a +3 with). Fire at the closest. BTW, they didn't aggro on me after I fired on them and damaged them until I got closer. Might want to look at that.

I used at least 20 arrows. At least. I don't have the exact number, but I reloaded once, and stopped firing when I was down to 7 arrows on the reload. I fired probably 8 shots at the second kobold after killing the first (and remember, they weren't fighting back - I was out of range of their ranged attack). I hit the first kobold 4 times, the second one I hit twice. 6 hits in over 20 attempts, WITH a +3 to hit due to bonuses. I'm going to spitball and say that I fired at least 24 times, which is around a 25% success rate. That's with no attacks on me.

Does this seem right to anyone? The die rolls were horrible (which I guess mirrors my real life problem with rolling shit on dice). And I wouldn't say anything if this wasn't an ordinary occurrence for me. I can also say that before the combat slow down patch, I did not have nearly this much trouble killing things with a similarly built rogue. Sneak attacks miss way more often than they hit. The special attacks I took don't seem to do much when they do hit, but again, I ain't hitting anyway.

I'm not asking that I be uber COH style killer of multiples. But I'd like to think even a rogue who has the drop on a kobold warrior of CR 1 has a fucking chance in hell, and I don't. It's really goddamn frustrating, and I don't think it has to do with not tumbling enough. I'm willing to believe it could be my twitch skills, since they do usually suck, but damn. Am I really that shitty of a player? I've even used the shield block, which seems to have helped somewhat, but the end result is coming out the same. I die.

I don't think this is a bug. I don't think this is a class issue. I'm hoping it isn't a solo issue, because frankly, the MMOG market, especially those who will be coming off of WoW when this releases (and there will be a plenty coming from WoW) expects to be able to solo. They don't expect a fast rate of advancement, but they should expect that some of the quests, especially the way they are written, should be soloable. I realize my back of the envelope calculations are highly dubious due to not being exact numbers, but I leave that shit to the spreadsheet wankers.

Fenom
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Reply #1 on: December 21, 2005, 01:53:11 PM

Rogues at low level for me were like this.....miss miss miss miss miss miss spot trap ..search...disarm trap....miss miss miss...you get my point?   Wanna have a chance to solo go fighter for melee or ranger for ranged.  That what I would do.  My biggest frustration and concern at this point is content.  I have leveld to level 6 3 times now and think I have done every quest and am having a hard time getting myself to log in to play more as the bugs are still pretty much the same and there is not enough high level content.  I have been in beta for just over 30 days so if the content is not going to increase I think there is a cause for great concern.

This is my Reality.  If you don't like it, let's go back to my place and do naughty things.
Signe
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Reply #2 on: December 21, 2005, 03:23:00 PM

I was actually able to solo the waterworks quest that gets you into the next area, finally.  At Fighter 2/Rogue 1.  It was hard... it's really long now.  A lot of the quests have increased in size, which is a good thing to me.  I have not been able to solo and survive very much with any other character than fighter, actually.  I also have to use some of the exploity bits... like killing things from a distance when they don't come after you or getting in a position where mob wizards/shaman/etc hit a wall instead of you but you can still hit them.  I probably wouldn't have done as well if they had better AI or pathfinding or sommat. 

I don't feel guilty.

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
SuperPopTart
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Reply #3 on: December 21, 2005, 03:37:08 PM

I as a Ranger and a Cleric can solo with minimal difficulty for the majority of quests. It's a challenge of strategy for me, however I am a ranger user so I have a bit more of an advantage then normal. However that being said, I am finding that I am losing interest in logging in and I am not sure if that has to do with my low tolerence for gaming in general, the fact that Role Playing and what I am seeking in a game is not in this one, that groups and people in general seem to just not be around as much, a content issue, or what have you.


I think people need constant inspiration to play a multi-player game after so many years of playing other things.

I am Super, I am a Pop Tart.
Sky
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Reply #4 on: December 21, 2005, 03:45:18 PM

My initial rogue was just a stain on the wall mostly. Then I rolled a barbarian and chewed through everything that moved. Then I rolled a bard who was a stain on the wall, but could sometimes get a heal off before becoming wall-paste.

I suck at DDO combat, too, and I do understand blocking and rolling. I actually found the excessive rolling got on my nerves, but I don't want to bitch about it, lest it become more of the same old mmo crap combat.

I had hoped this game would be a LOT more rogue-friendly, and someone on here has been saying rogues are great, but it's honestly more of a combat EQ rogue than the Garrett experience I was looking for. Bugs me because it was so close to being so, but the implementation stumbles and it's probably too late to fix it, if they even want to. Basically, I wouldn't mind rogues being gimpy in combat if they could completely avoid combat, but it's required in places...and the stealth code seemed real dodgy to me, though I haven't played much since Alpha.

Samwise
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Reply #5 on: December 21, 2005, 04:05:34 PM

Every time you attack, it'll show you the die roll and the to-hit modifier. †You can get a good feel from that whether you missed because you got unlucky or because you had a crappy chance of success (low modifier) or you were out of range completely (in which case no die roll happens at all, and you don't see the "Miss" float over your enemy's head).

If you're trying to circle-strafe but not quite lining up your attacks, or if you're shooting at something that's obstructed or too far away, your attacks will have zero effect, without the "Miss" thing.

If you're trying to use a weapon that you're not proficient with, or you're subject to some other miscellaneous modifier (like you've gotten hit by a Strength poison or some other debuff, or you're encountering some random situational modifier like fighting uphill, not sure how many of those are implemented in DDO), that'll show up in your to-hit roll. †From what you describe, your melee hit rolls should be at +1 and your ranged hit rolls should be at +3, assuming none of the aforementioned extenuating circumstances - is that what you're seeing?

Finally (and you probably already know this) - any quest that primarily involves combat isn't gonna be soloable by a rogue of the same level. †Some of them aren't even soloable by fighters, for that matter. †If you're soloing as a rogue, stick to the stealthy quests, which is almost anything that doesn't have "kill X" as a listed objective, and save the combat-oriented quests for times when you can find a group, at which point you can make yourself useful by disarming traps and double-teaming with fighters (tumbling like a madman if you draw aggro).

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Samwise
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Reply #6 on: December 21, 2005, 04:23:04 PM

Hm... it might be useful to compile a list of quests that are easily rogue-soloable.  I recently went back through a bunch of quests with my ranger to see how far stealth would get me since the latest changes; there are fewer stealth quests now than there used to be, in part because monsters have a higher chance to notice stealthed characters now, but there's still a good smattering that you can do by being sneaky.

Healing Elixir - the Goodblade quest where you go into the alchemist's workshop.  Now that the warforged at the end asks a riddle instead of attacking you, it seems like a rogue should be able to do the whole thing with no combat (although you might have to run past the spiders instead of stealth past them, since spiders are really good at sniffing out rogues).

Low Road - I've definitely stealthed this entire quest before.  Trickier with the new stealth changes; I think the last time I did it with a rogue I ended up having to just run past the last shaman because he spotted me, but I still made it out without having to kill anything.

Bringing the Light - 100% stealthable once you've dealt with the first two guards, which don't have bows and can hence be perched pretty easily if need be.  The trick to doing the rest of the quest stealthily is to use ranged attacks to sabotage the gambling tables from outside the rooms; this prevents the guards in those rooms from spotting you, and you can just stealth past the guard in the hallway with the dogs.  Obviously, you can't do the optional objective at the end without combat, but the main quest is no problem.

The Dread Eye of Khyber - 100% stealthable if you don't go for any of the optional boss fights.  In fact, stealth is highly encouraged due to the fact that killing sentries/prophets will cause you to fail the quest.  I absolutely refuse to do this quest with pickup groups because there's always some retard who can't get the concept of NOT killing things.

Waterworks - I have stealthed this entire line of quests in the past, with the sole exception of the oozes in the first part of Tunnelworm (although those can be perched); not sure if it's still possible with the new changes (I haven't had any trouble finding groups for it lately), but the quests themselves haven't changed in any significant way, so it seems like it should be possible.

Redfang the Unruled Although not really a "stealth" quest, this is the perfect "rogue" quest because every square inch of it is trapped.  Before the last wipe that was the one quest I didn't mind repeating, for the sole reason that the room with the Strength poison traps was so damn fun to disarm.  I felt like Indiana Jones every single time.  And it never failed to impress my group, since the level of timing required for that thing is beyond the reach of most MMOG players.   :-D

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Sobelius
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Reply #7 on: December 21, 2005, 07:55:51 PM

Haem -- rogues suck at solo play in the PnP game too.

They work best when someone else is standing opposite them (or is the creature's target)  because the rogue then gets a bonus to hit plus the sneak attack damage.

When you're solo, your best bet may be to try the Bluff skill, which if it works, gives you a sneak attack (I haven't tried it in DDO, but it's a tactic in PnP).

In my PnP game, one of the players is a 13 halfling rogue who loves to min/max. He has all the numbers played out and all the weapons and armor and skills and feats. And yet, he found himself alone in a wilderness in one session and a huge scorpion got the drop on him. Because he couldn't flank it, even though he was hitting, he was barely scratching the thing. He finally had to run -- and I could tell he was unhappy that he couldn't tank the scorpion. Not his fault -- it's just that he is far more lethal in a group.

A feat you could have considered taking is Weapon Finesse -- you get your dex bonus to hit (instead of strength) with certain weapons (rapier among them). So a rogue with a 16 dex gets +3 to hit with the rapier. You still won't hit every time, but it's a nice bonus.

A couple of thoughts on targetting. Make sure to use the Tab key or whatever key you use to acquire a target when in  melee -- you'll be more likely to get a die roll and possibly hit. If you don't want to worry about having the mob targetted, make sure the target reticle turns red before you swing.

Finally, the only way to solo effectively and not die a lot is to be LOADED up on healing potions. Drink them during combat after combat and for in-between meal snacks. There is no other way to solo and survive -- even as a cleric in chain armor (with a 22 AC buffed), I STILL have to have potions on me.

I don't think you suck as bad as you think you do. And if the die rolls suck, how the hell is that your fault? I hate the real randomness of die rolls in this game because when you miss, especailly many times in a row, you really feel it. No other MMO has such unforgiving hit/miss mechanics.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2005, 10:19:49 PM by Sobelius »

"I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
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Xilren's Twin
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Reply #8 on: December 22, 2005, 06:59:03 AM

Finally, the only way to solo effectively and not die a lot is to be LOADED up on healing potions. Drink them during combat after combat and for in-between meal snacks. There is no other way to solo and survive -- even as a cleric in chain armor (with a 22 AC buffed), I STILL have to have potions on me.

I don't think you suck as bad as you think you do. And if the die rolls suck, how the hell is that your fault? I hate the real randomness of die rolls in this game because when you miss, especailly many times in a row, you really feel it. No other MMO has such unforgiving hit/miss mechanics.

What?  This has not been my experience at all as a cleric.  Im a soloing fool and have been since day1.  Hell this week i soloed the entire Tangleroot gorge quest line, 7 quests from CR4 up to CR7 with 1 death (that being the spider I didn't realize you couldn't kill).  The only potions i keep on me are 1 haste and 1 invis for emergencies.  The only thing I did oddly in my cleric build is low charisma (which in retrospect was a mistake) and I took Bastard Sword as a weapon proficency.

I agree with the rest of your post though :)

Xilren

"..but I'm by no means normal." - Schild
SuperPopTart
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Reply #9 on: December 22, 2005, 08:40:27 AM



I don't think you suck as bad as you think you do. And if the die rolls suck, how the hell is that your fault? I hate the real randomness of die rolls in this game because when you miss, especailly many times in a row, you really feel it. No other MMO has such unforgiving hit/miss mechanics.


I say this with much love, understand and compassion for my darling husband.

I've seen him play many, many, MANY games and his die rolls have almost always, on a near constant basis, sucked.

He'd be the first to admit this.

I am Super, I am a Pop Tart.
Sky
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Reply #10 on: December 22, 2005, 08:45:47 AM

Quote
in part because monsters have a higher chance to notice stealthed characters now
Oh yay. Color me less interested in logging in now. Mmo is really not my genre, especially this forced grouping offshoot (with EQ2). I guess that's part of why SWG isn't bugging me much - I can play an hour here and there when I have time.
Quote
Haem -- rogues suck at solo play in the PnP game too.
This is so completely untrue. It's entirely dependant on your DM. I used to run a lot of solo thief/assassin campaigns with the drummer from my band, who was a devious and evil cocksucker. Irl, too. It was fun when we'd get a full game going, our sound man was a lawful-good ranger. I always had to come up with these outrť reasons for them to group up because neither would shift to the center on alignments...

And my singer and I, when we were in Jr High School, totally pwned a tournament campaign at a convention, he with a pure thief and me with an m-u/thief, by stealthing away from the group 'scouting', heh. I may have told that story here, the DM got in trouble for throwing 'invisible ninjas' at us...
Quote
I've seen him play many, many, MANY games and his die rolls have almost always, on a near constant basis, sucked.
That was me rolling for lewtz in EQ. I ALWAYS lost. Always. As in never, in two years, won. Ever. My eqholic friend always won, so he'd occasionally hook me up, but mostly he was an evil lewt miser, the bastard. At level 54, I was wearing the Mistmoor Advisor's Robe. And I had to argue that with a guildie who wanted to roll for his alt! Up until level 52 or so, I'd been wearing Shadowbound (a level 25ish quest robe). In fact, I think my necro is logged out in the ghoul magi room in Guk, the last thing I was doing was camping a robe solo so I wouldn't have to roll.

Sobelius
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Reply #11 on: December 22, 2005, 09:34:29 AM

Wrote that post last night after coming home from a party at which I'd had way too much to drink.

I'll rephrase -- rogues often suck in solo combat in PnP, especially if they don't catch their opponent flat-footed.

Rogues have some great opportunities to rack up "to hit" and "damage" bonuses in PnP play -- under the right circumstances. Throw a solo rogue up against anything that doesn't suffer from critical hits (and thus no sneak attack damage) -- such as contructs and undead and oozes -- and the rogue's damage potential drops significantly.

As far as being cleric and using healing potions goes -- I should have clarified. I don't solo with the cleric -- grouped only. I carry healing potions on me because when I need to heal myself I'd rather swig a potion than use spell points on myself. To me, spell points are more valuable to spend casting heals on others. I still think it's wise to carry healing potions if soloing, even as a cleric.

This leads to one of the things I think I like most about DDO -- there is a lot of room for variety in play style (in terms of the potential combos of feats and skills). As a group-focused cleric, I took Extra Undead Turning, Divine Vitality, and one other Action point thing that boost my undead turning. As a 3rd level cleric, I can now turn undead 10 times per rest cycle. With Divine Vitality, I can use a turn undead action to restore about 10-15 spell points to another spellcaster. The two mages in my group love that I can keep them going when they run low on spell points. I'm not sure a solo cleric would do what I did, but it's a nice option for a group-focused cleric.

"I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
"A world without Vin Diesel is sad." -- me
HaemishM
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Prevent all damage that would be dealt to you and other troops you control.


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Reply #12 on: December 22, 2005, 09:54:08 AM

If you're trying to use a weapon that you're not proficient with, or you're subject to some other miscellaneous modifier (like you've gotten hit by a Strength poison or some other debuff, or you're encountering some random situational modifier like fighting uphill, not sure how many of those are implemented in DDO), that'll show up in your to-hit roll. †From what you describe, your melee hit rolls should be at +1 and your ranged hit rolls should be at +3, assuming none of the aforementioned extenuating circumstances - is that what you're seeing?

That's exactly what I'm seeing. +1's and +3's and numbers that line up with what it says in my inventory are my to hit bonuses. Sneak attacks from stealth and behind? Miss.

What's really bothering me is that it wasn't happening this badly in the previous version (before the slowed down combat). I like the slowed-down combat, but I suck at it. And that's frustrating as fuck. I play at weird times, and am highly resistant to pickup groups. HIGHLY RESISTANT. As in I hate the bulk of humanity with a white hot passion.

Again, I'm not expecting to be able to solo everything. I'm expecting that when I get 2 and 3 things on me, I'm probably dead. I'm fine with using potions, if I can find them. But what I'm not fine with is the CR's, which is apparently a totally fucked method of determining the difficulty of an encounter. If you're going to include those numbers, they need to make sense. They don't. As a level 1 character, I can't kill a CR 1 solo unless I'm really lucky. That's going to be completely counter intuitive to anyone who has played an MMOG before.

Yes, I hate the MMOG mentality too. But it's a market factor that DDO is going to have to come to terms with. So is the solo player.

I WANT to like this game. It has great concepts, but it's become totally frustrating to me. Some of the same quests I was able to complete in the last patch, I can't do in this one. I'd say most of them I can't do. These are level 1 quests, and I can't do them. I don't hit more than about 33% of my swings, and that's too few against monsters that logic dictates I should have at least a 50/50 chance on.

I'd really like to hear Cal's take on this as well. I don't want this to be a whine post, I seriously want to see if there's something I am doing wrong. So far, the only thing I'm hearing is that I should probably use lots of potions, or play another class.

Sky
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Reply #13 on: December 22, 2005, 10:50:44 AM

Quote
I'd really like to hear Cal's take on this as well. I don't want this to be a whine post, I seriously want to see if there's something I am doing wrong. So far, the only thing I'm hearing is that I should probably use lots of potions, or play another class.
Me, too. My "solution" was to play a barbarian, and I realized I didn't want to play an mmo as a warrior type, I wanted to do the whole rogue stealth thing. Besides combat, stealth wasn't working out so great for me anyway, and now it's been tweaked down; I assume to deal with people stealthing through missions, as if it's a bad thing? Maybe it's the 3rd ed rules that suck, allowing everyone to take some stealth? I dunno.

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Reply #14 on: December 22, 2005, 05:42:49 PM

Again, I'm not expecting to be able to solo everything. I'm expecting that when I get 2 and 3 things on me, I'm probably dead. I'm fine with using potions, if I can find them. But what I'm not fine with is the CR's, which is apparently a totally fucked method of determining the difficulty of an encounter. If you're going to include those numbers, they need to make sense. They don't. As a level 1 character, I can't kill a CR 1 solo unless I'm really lucky. That's going to be completely counter intuitive to anyone who has played an MMOG before.

In D&D, the idea is that a CR X monster is an appropriate challenge for a party of 4 level X characters, and that defeating it will deplete about 10% of the party's resources (HP, spells, etc).  DDO is a fair bit kinder in that regard, but I still wouldn't expect every character to be able to solo a monster with a CR equal to their level.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Sky
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Reply #15 on: December 23, 2005, 08:45:12 AM

Turbine marketing is going to have to present the group-bias of the game very strongly, or face EQ2-like repercussions imo. If I had tested EQ2 and understood exactly how anti-solo the game code was, I'd never have bought it, and I'm still upset about it (not much, but it bugs me).

I won't be buying DDO. Simply not my thing. I'll go play Thief 2 again and pretend I'm in DDO. I've logged about two hours since the alpha ended, no urge to login whatsoever. I would like to get to the cooler content like beholders and trolls and whatnot...but killing kobolds got old long ago and I'd get slaughtered anyway.

HaemishM
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Prevent all damage that would be dealt to you and other troops you control.


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Reply #16 on: December 24, 2005, 01:24:40 AM

I gave up on the Rogue and made a Barbarian, named Barabas MacLennan.

Fuck. Compared to the Rogue, the Barbarian is like EASY mode. It's that much of a difference. Not only was I hitting more, my fights lasted less time because my damage was higher on average. I'm going to attempt some level 2 quests, just to see if I can do them solo.

I wasn't even using the specials a lot, just pounding on things. The barbarian is either seriously overpowered, or the rogue is a complete pussy solo.

Samwise
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Reply #17 on: December 24, 2005, 01:30:15 AM

As far as straight-up combat goes, yes.  The rogue is a complete pussy when soloing. 

Don't play a rogue if you want to beat shit up.

Also, don't play a fighter if you want to cast spells.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
SuperPopTart
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Reply #18 on: December 24, 2005, 02:44:07 AM

I like fireballs.

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Fenom
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Reply #19 on: December 24, 2005, 03:14:16 AM

Is that what you call them now?

This is my Reality.  If you don't like it, let's go back to my place and do naughty things.
SuperPopTart
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Reply #20 on: December 24, 2005, 01:01:19 PM

lol  Shush.

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Sobelius
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Reply #21 on: December 24, 2005, 02:02:25 PM

OK -- I made an elf rogue -- 10 STR, 8 CON, 10 WIS, 14 CHA, 16 INT and 16 DEX. (The 16 INT gave her 44 skill points -- I maxed out almost every rogue skill). Decided to play her purely solo and turned down two random invites to group.

Had only minor trouble getting through the beginner quests (died once because even after I'd secured the ancient daggers I took on the skeleton captain with only 14 hit points left.

I picked up a masterwork rapier as a reward from one quest, and got a wand of shocking grasp from turning in a pale creeper. Given I put max points into Use Magic Device, it's a nice (but obviously short-term) extra bonus.

I finished the Miller's Debt quest by perching on crates and using the Wand and my shortbow (elves start proficient in bows).

I finished the Eyegouge Basement quest pretty easily.

I tried to complete the "steal the book from the lighthouse library" quest, but the zombies got me.

I used the Bluff skill a LOT while fighting, and it worked some times -- especially on humans in the newbie "scrolls" quest.

I spent my first aciton point on "Rogue Boost" -- 5 uses for damage increase, skill increase or attack speed increase. These helped a little but not much.

OK -- so I've been *somewhat* able to solo. But I didn't enjoy it -- died too many times, took too long, and too many requests required killng things to move forward.

So I learned what I pretty much knew from reading the Beta boards and my early experience with playing all the different classes:

1. This is a grouping game. Solo is possible, but I'm going to solo in Elder Scrolls IV, not DDO.
2. At beginning levels, rogues can solo but it's tough. Mages and bards suck at soloing (especially at low levels); fighters and clerics solo quite well at low levels.
3. Most of the game's quests cannot be completed without being forced into combat at some point.

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HaemishM
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Reply #22 on: December 26, 2005, 11:38:57 PM

I've never used the bluff skill. Frankly, I do not understand what it does in regards to combat especially. If it's helpful enough that it allowed your rogue to win some combats, then it needs to be renamed (which won't happen because it's a DND skill) or it needs to be seriously explained better.

Sobelius
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Reply #23 on: December 27, 2005, 12:37:05 AM

I've never used the bluff skill. Frankly, I do not understand what it does in regards to combat especially. If it's helpful enough that it allowed your rogue to win some combats, then it needs to be renamed (which won't happen because it's a DND skill) or it needs to be seriously explained better.

I agree it could be clearer in the tool tips or other documentation in DDO.

Furthermore, doesn't increase your to hit roll, but can reduce a target's AC if they get a bonus due to Dex.

Here's what it says in 3.5 Ed. PnP Player's Handbook:

Quote
Feinting in Combat: You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it canít dodge your next attack effectively). To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by your targetís Sense Motive check, but in this case, the target may add its base attack bonus to the roll along with any other applicable modifiers.
If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn.
Feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid is difficult because itís harder to read a strange creatureís body language; you take a Ė4 penalty on your Bluff check. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2) itís even harder; you take a Ė8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, itís impossible.
Feinting in combat does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

No idea if DDO is implementing all of this. Emphasis mine, above, to show that if a rogue succeeds in this kind of Bluff, this result allows sneak attack damage if the attack hits.

Unfortunately, the Beta 4.0 update says Bluff is no longer effective against anything that doesn't understand Common. This is a poor decisions on Turbine's part, IMHO, since Bluffing in combat is obviously important for rogues.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2005, 12:38:56 AM by Sobelius »

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Reply #24 on: December 27, 2005, 08:16:54 AM

Quote
1. This is a grouping game. Solo is possible, but I'm going to solo in Elder Scrolls IV, not DDO.
I agree with this. I won't be playing DDO.

I think Hammy and I are saying that it's not very easy to solo with a rogue, but it is with a barbarian. We've both done it now. That's not about casting spells with a fighter kind of incompatibility, it's the ability of a pure combat class to romp through instances where a stealthy character struggles.

This is no Garrett adventure, I have zero interest in another monster bashing and/or grouping game. I haven't logged into DDO in months.

Cal, give someone else here a beta slot, there are a couple folks who want to play. I suggest they roll up barbarians.

Sobelius
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Reply #25 on: December 27, 2005, 11:58:38 AM

Given that I'm very likely moving to Long Island in a couple of months due to a work reorg, I'm looking forward to playng DDO with my RL friends -- it will defiinitely be my grouping game, while I'll solo in ESIV.

Barbarian me-hulk-me-smash will only get you so far in DDO. Sure, you won't have as many problems with mobs but you'll miss things requiring high wisdom, int, or stealth skills. The whole game is geared toward the old D&D ideal having the talents of the base four classes (fighter/magic-user/thief/cleric) in a group.

Now that they have the basic world and quests for groups in place, Turbine could (if they wanted to) choose to create content and storylines tailored more for specific classes. There's no reason they couldn't make the game soloable for levels 1-10 of any class -- assuming the adventures were geared toward facing challenges that a solo character with the expected skills should have. Hell, they could even lock these adventures such that they are doable only by a lone player who has at least 'x' levels in a particular class.

But would all of this cool specialized solo content be worth the development investment?

"I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
"A world without Vin Diesel is sad." -- me
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