Impressions of Dungeons and Dragons Online

[Xilren's Twin]

Thanks so much for that write - up.  I was delighted to hear too about the attention to unique graphics.

I have one concern about the questing:  Can they be shared?  Will extensive chain quests create barriers to grouping with friends unless they are at the same point in the quest chain?

Not a problem.

Xilren

[Samwise]

I predict fun D&D balance whines in the future.  Does D&D still follow the old "some classes (wizards) suck at the beginning and roxxor at the end while others (fighters, rogues) roxxor at the beginning and are kind of bleh at the end" balance scheme?  Not so cool for the bleh guys when you spend 1 month levelling up and a year at max level.

 The more I think of it, the more I think D&D is not the greatest model for a MMO.  It's riddled with balance problems but they don't matter because a decent DM will always balance the game to make it fun for all the players.  If you have a gimpy race/class/skill combo, the DM can plop in encounters expressly designed to make that guy useful.  Not easy to do in a MMO.

It will be interesting to see how many changes they need to make to the rules.

D&D's balance problems were hugely reduced in 3rd Ed.  HUGELY.  As in, first level wizards don't completely suck any more.  And we'll note that DDO is based on 3rd Ed.   

[Strazos]

I'm thinking the spell point system (mana) will help lowbie casters also.

[shiznitz]

Yeah, 3E introduced Mages with Xbows. Very good change.

[Xilren's Twin]

I predict fun D&D balance whines in the future.  Does D&D still follow the old "some classes (wizards) suck at the beginning and roxxor at the end while others (fighters, rogues) roxxor at the beginning and are kind of bleh at the end" balance scheme?  Not so cool for the bleh guys when you spend 1 month levelling up and a year at max level.

 The more I think of it, the more I think D&D is not the greatest model for a MMO.  It's riddled with balance problems but they don't matter because a decent DM will always balance the game to make it fun for all the players.  If you have a gimpy race/class/skill combo, the DM can plop in encounters expressly designed to make that guy useful.  Not easy to do in a MMO.

It will be interesting to see how many changes they need to make to the rules.

D&D's balance problems were hugely reduced in 3rd Ed.  HUGELY.  As in, first level wizards don't completely suck any more.  And we'll note that DDO is based on 3rd Ed.   

Eh, balancing whines in a pve/pvp game are usually just "his DPS is higher than mine!" arguments b/c higher DPS=more kills=more exp/honor.  So long as DDO continues to have multiple ways for people to accomplish their quests and usefulness for classes I don't think we'll see too much of that.  I mean, how do you balance a rogues trap disabling to a fighters damage output anyway?  Since the rewards are given for quest completion instead of kills, it's a much more minimized issued.  But, I think you'll see far more whines from the "every class should be able to solo every quest equal to their CR" people (I sort of alluded to this in my post).  That's always struck me as a very illogical mindset to proceed from.  

I mean sure, if there's two ogres between you and your quest goal, it's nice that a fighter could straight up battle them, a rogue sneak around them, or a wizard charm one to battle the other/web them/cast invisible and walk by them; that's doable today.  But not all quest are the same, so if instead of 2 ogres it's 2 Wraiths who are incorpreal so the fighter can't easily kill them, or spiders who see invisible/hidden well so the rogue can't sneak by them, or some high Spell resistance monster the wizard can't easily affect....  THAT's when the solo whining begins (and believe me, it has).  I expect the offical boards will be whine central just like they are for every mmorpg to date.

It's always been somewhat paradoxical to me; people want classes that are truely different from one another, but at the same time, they want each to be able to do the exact same things...and a pony.

Xilren

[El Gallo]

I was more concerned about the high end, actually.  When the wizard can do the fighter's job and the rogue's job and the ranger's job and the bard's job all at the same time and basically just obliterate the universe by batting an eyelash.  Though the 10th level cap will probably put that off.

I don't really think balance is just about dps.  If they have a shitload of high level traps in most dungeons, everyone will be required to have a rogue.  Will this crowd out other "utility + dps" classes?  I dunno.  When rangers, fighter-archers, sniper-rogues, wizards and sorcerors are competing for ranged dps slots, there should be some kind of balance.

My fear for both classes and feat/skill builds is that once the most powerful combos are discovered, they'll design the challenging content around those combos.  This has happened in just about every other game I've ever seen (including Turbine's AC1).  I was just hypothesizing that it could be even worse in D&D because the classes they are starting with aren't that balanced and the feat and skill selection system makes it easy to gimp yourself to oblivion or cheese yourself to overpoweredness.

Anyway, I guess the juicy details won't be available until the NDA is dropped, so I'll have to curb my curiosity unless I get into the beta test.

Great post btw Xilren.

[Soln]

Thief/Cleric, FOTM

[Edit]  good write up BTW, thx.  I wonder how this will survive against AoC and GW.  The hubby/instaQuest world will be getting crowded.

[Strazos]

If a person expects to be able to anything and everything themselves, in a game based on D&D...they are kidding themselves.

[Alkiera]

Thanks so much for that write - up.  I was delighted to hear too about the attention to unique graphics.

I have one concern about the questing:  Can they be shared?  Will extensive chain quests create barriers to grouping with friends unless they are at the same point in the quest chain?

I think this isn't too far from what was mentioned.  Everyone in the group gets exp.  If you show up late, you get a penalty for being late, which wears off the longer you're there(it keeps track of how long it takes you to finish, vs. when you got in).  You only get 'credit' for the quest if you talked to the NPC at the begining, but you will get the normal exp, and any items you loot while inside.  If multiple people have the same quest, they need only do the instance once.

Also, there's an 'XP Report' on the quest helper window that you can pull up to see what the base exp for the mission is, what mods you've earned, and what exp you've gained from optional items..  At all times you can see how much exp you'll get for finishing the quest.

Alkiera

[Velorath]

My fear for both classes and feat/skill builds is that once the most powerful combos are discovered, they'll design the challenging content around those combos.  This has happened in just about every other game I've ever seen (including Turbine's AC1).  I was just hypothesizing that it could be even worse in D&D because the classes they are starting with aren't that balanced and the feat and skill selection system makes it easy to gimp yourself to oblivion or cheese yourself to overpoweredness.

Just about every other MMO though revolves almost 100% around combat, and every popular character template is designed with that in mind.  Damage, Tanking, and Healing are everything, and every useful talent, spell, or item exists to enhance those three things.  Now I haven't played DDO yet, but from the sound of it, it rewards players for avoiding combat as much as it does fighting.  So with stealth and utility offering alternate means of making your way through quests, ideally it will keep particular builds from being the "ulitimate".

Now it's just a matter of whether or not things actually work that way in practice.

[schild]

Edit: Don't make me download and play "Flyff" - I swear I will!

When you uninstall Flyff your computer dings and says:

"The Flyff has been removed from your computer."

Ya know, it was worth the install and hour of my time just to see that. From henceforth all people who play shitty MMOGs have The Flyff and should be treated as such.

[Samwise]

My fear for both classes and feat/skill builds is that once the most powerful combos are discovered, they'll design the challenging content around those combos.

I'll spoil the suspense about what the most powerful combo is: warrior, healer, rogue, magic-user.  As it's always been.   

[Ironwood]

So, 2.5 levels of each then ?

[Samwise]

If you want to be a hobbling gimp, yes.

[Alkiera]

So, 2.5 levels of each then ?

If you want to be a hobbling gimp, yes.

yeah, multiclassing is so, so not the way to go for power.  If you must, wait till prestige classes are in, and do that.  But in general, a level 10 Class_X is much superior to a level 5 X/level 5 Y split.  Depending on the classes, you're only as effective as a level 7 or so, even tho you are 10, and if one of them is a pure caster...  you're hosed for being useful as a caster.  You're level 10, but cast like a level 5... now, try to hit a level 10 critter as a level 5 caster.  Really.  Give it a shot.

Alkiera

[Strazos]

Actually, it seems a few levels of fighter, and then swapping to caster can be really effective. If anything, it opens up more equipment options, including caster-enabled Elven Chainmail.

[Hoax]

Last time I was listening to people powe game DnD they were definately taking advantage of multi-classing to gain access to feats that combo'd with other feats and so on.  I'll ask my DnD playing friends what some broken combo's are.

[Samwise]

The good combos tend to be between classes that have roughly similar roles, e.g. a "warrior" type class like paladin grabbing a level of fighter to get a bonus feat.  Casters are notoriously bad for multiclassing since every level you take in another class slows down your all-important spell progression; the extra 12 hit points you'd get from those 2 levels of fighter pale in comparison to being able to cast Fireball instead of Melf's Acid Arrow because you took those 2 levels as a pure caster instead.

Prestige classes do make things a bit more complex, since some of the prestige class abilities can be extremely broken under the right circumstances, and prestige classes are usually designed to be easily combined with a variety of base classes.  DDO reportedly isn't going to have prestige classes at launch, though, and I'd be very surprised if they ever tried to implement every single one.

[Strazos]

But those fighter levels can be really helpful, as they can open up item choices, especially helmets and weapons.

For instance, I did it with one of my mages in the IWD series. The 2 extra fighter levels, combined with something like Tenser's Transformation (I think that's the name, it basically turns the mage into a super-beast tank for a time), can be devastating.

A lot of people hate on her, but I thought Jaheira, as a Fighter/Druid worked really well at higher levels.

[DevilsAdvocate]

I am wondering if they have alignments in the game with consequences for acting outside of your alignment? It would be my dream to see all those cocksucking powergaming munchkin paladins losing their class permanently because they went around killing anything that moved with no regard for how it affected their alignment. From what I recall, alignment was what was supposed to balance the power of the paladin as well as the high required stats for the class.

[Merusk]

I recall hearing something about Monk/ caster combos being completly broken.  That was in 3rd not 3.5 though, so it's probably been fixed. 

[Samwise]

For instance, I did it with one of my mages in the IWD series. The 2 extra fighter levels, combined with something like Tenser's Transformation (I think that's the name, it basically turns the mage into a super-beast tank for a time), can be devastating.

My theory on Tenser's Transformation was always that if I wanted to be a tank who can't cast spells and has a BAB equal to my level, I'd have just been a fighter all the way.     I'd rather spend those high level spell slots on casting stuff like Reverse Gravity.  Outdoors.

I recall hearing something about Monk/ caster combos being completly broken.  That was in 3rd not 3.5 though, so it's probably been fixed. 

Might be part of why they haven't put monks into DDO yet.  (I had to double check the public FAQ to make sure I wasn't breaking  by saying that.)

[Merusk]

Yeah, I don't think we'll see them.  Thinking about it, they're probably still broken.  Able to cast fireballs while using evasion, decent melee and an AC bonus in robes.

[Alkiera]

I recall hearing something about Monk/ caster combos being completly broken.  That was in 3rd not 3.5 though, so it's probably been fixed. 

Monks, even in 3.5, are still pretty broken, as are certain druid setups.

Turbine, in their wisdom, chose to not include either class.  While sure, you could take a couple levels of fighter for more early hp and an extra feat, then continue with cleric... but you could also just be a paladin, and get some very nice other bonuses.  High level pallys are almost as bad as monks.  As a cleric, there's a 4th level spell 'Divine Power' that basically does the same as Tensor's(+6 str, BAB same as warrior, +1 hp/level), but with no transforming, and you can still cast.  It's also pretty short, 1 rnd/level.  Still, 7 round is a decent amount of time, when you first get the abillity to cast it.  I don't know if it's actually in DDO, tho.

Alkiera

[Ironwood]

So, 2.5 levels of each then ?

Very few people on these boards get your humour, retard.  You should probably stop.

[Merusk]

So, 2.5 levels of each then ?

Very few people on these boards get your humour, retard.  You should probably stop.

But part of the joy in your humor is watching other people not get it.  You're going soft in your old age.

[Ironwood]

Alas, I'm probably just looking for validation.  Time to get a puppy, or a child.  And torture them mentally.

[Malathor]

I'll be the one to predict it flops, so that if it does, I get to be the one jumping up and down and telling you all "I told you so!". Cause being able to do that owns.

[jpark]

I'll be the one to predict it flops, so that if it does, I get to be the one jumping up and down and telling you all "I told you so!". Cause being able to do that owns.

If you have followed Schild's position on WoW - you can still do that - regardless how well the game does  :-D

[Alkiera]

I'll be the one to predict it flops, so that if it does, I get to be the one jumping up and down and telling you all "I told you so!". Cause being able to do that owns.

If you have followed Schild's position on WoW - you can still do that - regardless how well the game does  :-D

heh.  WoW sucks!  I mean, nobody likes it, it's ugly.  5 million users?  That's nothing...

Yeah, nothing but prolly 60+% of the NA MMO market.  They obviously did something right.

Alkiera

[Malathor]

I'll be the one to predict it flops, so that if it does, I get to be the one jumping up and down and telling you all "I told you so!". Cause being able to do that owns.

If you have followed Schild's position on WoW - you can still do that - regardless how well the game does  :-D

Yeah, well he better not abuse his authority to muscle in on me as DDO doomcaster. I've called dibs on it, fair and square!

[Margalis]

I am "Demeter", a human female bard, if anyone wants to play together sometime. I'll be gone for a few days but should have plenty of time starting mid next week.

I don't know much about D&D so I have no idea what I'm doing. No idea what the numbers mean, no idea what a bard is even supposed to do.

[Strazos]

Bard is a Buff class, a pickpocket, and minor spellcaster (wizard spells).

Whenever I had a choice of characters to make in a singleplayer game, I always tried to toss in a bard.

[HRose]

What's the gameplay for a caster?

I've read lots of comments about twitchy melee, which makes sense, but how the wizards are played? I guess targeting is in and the spells are still on a quickbar. So how this twitch style applies to the casting part of the game? How is this different from the current mmorpg combat?

I'm looking for a straight description, not comments.

[Strazos]

I could Almost imagine casting in DDO working like a 3rd person shooter.

Granted, I haven't played the game at all yet, but I think that would be an interesting concept.