SOE hate

[schild]

Would I come back?  Sorry, but your company has shown some serious ethical issues with the playerbase at every juncture.  I honestly do not know if SOE can recover from some of the things they have done elsewhere (as far as my case- they are currently on the same level as EA, whom most of us are boycotting).

Are you kidding? Same level as EA? They're doing something ANYTHING that's near the equivilent of buying companies that are good and running them into the ground or simply snuffing them out? I'd like to know where on the doll they touched whoever.

[Cheddar]

Are you kidding? Same level as EA? They're doing something ANYTHING that's near the equivalent of buying companies that are good and running them into the ground or simply snuffing them out? I'd like to know where on the doll they touched whoever.

Its an ethical issue in my eyes- to me it is equivalent as to why I am not purchasing EA games.  'tis all.

How much IS Sony paying you, Schild?  I am curious as to why you keep defending these guys when they show time and again disdain for their players.  I am all about a little biting and scratching, but drawing blood is generally where I draw the line.

[Shockeye]

How much IS Sony paying you, Schild?

If Sony is paying schild, he hasn't told me about it and he certainly isn't sharing.

[schild]

Are you kidding? Same level as EA? They're doing something ANYTHING that's near the equivalent of buying companies that are good and running them into the ground or simply snuffing them out? I'd like to know where on the doll they touched whoever.

Its an ethical issue in my eyes- to me it is equivalent as to why I am not purchasing EA games.  'tis all.

You see, there's the problem. What fucking ethical rule have they broken? A lot of the SOE hate imho is completely unjustified. I could see hating the DnL folks or even the Mourning folks and I can definately see hating the Blizzard folks based solely on the fact they use bittorrent. But SOE? I just don't see it. Maybe I'm blind. But they haven't broken my moral barometer in any way. Sure, their playerbase kinda sucks in their games (like MOST mmorpgs and ALL other big MMORPGs), sure there's been some completely drama queen bullshit coming out of their office, but really they just haven't been anywhere near the devil people make them out to be. We've called Smedley a pigfucker and directed less than nice words at almost everyone on their dev teams, but we do that to everyone. Of all of them though, SOE is the only company who has been able to step up to the plate time and time again and at least have a swing. Cryptic? Nah, they'll never lessen that grind. Blizzard? Enjoy bittorrent, the money they're saving bought them new performance upgrades for their sports cars. The worst SOE has done is pull a fast one on their SW:G customers even though the base game sucked giant ass and made some less than good changes to the original EQ. Maybe I'm missing something.

How much IS Sony paying you, Schild?  I am curious as to why you keep defending these guys when they show time and again disdain for their players. I am all about a little biting and scratching, but drawing blood is generally where I draw the line.

What fucking disdain? Give me an example of disdain. A single one. I can see a little disregard here and there, but you can't tell me that drastic changes to SW:G weren't necessary. So try and find a real example. I can show you places where nearly every other MMORPG company has pulled some of the same shit time and time again. Yet you're still playing MMORPGs, so that's obviously not what set you off.

[Trippy]

You see, there's the problem. What fucking ethical rule have they broken?

How about announcing the NGE the day after the expansion was released and only offering a refund for the expansion purchase after everybody started screaming bloody murder? Not even EA has attempted that sort of underhanded money grubbing tactic to my knowledge.

[Signe]

Before AGC this forum, including it's staff, were pretty much anti-SOE...  After, schild comes home with a SOE smile and a chubby for Smegley.  Everyone, mostly, gets on his case about it and Ras and Shockeye defend him, sometimes.  That's all fine with me.  I'll turn it around a bit... I'd like to know WHY the sudden SOE love?  I know you can't be advocating that what SOE recently did to it's SWG customers was ETHICAL.  They sold them an expansion and changed the game right after... no real announcement, no nuffin.  They did away with the professions people were playing.  They made crafters inconsequential to the game.  They turned entertainers into... umm... entertainers.  No one but combat professions can fight anymore... they've cut off their bollocks!   How is that ok?  How does that make Smedco worthy of our admiration?  I should admire him because he's a dick?  I only disparage SOE and the corporate Smed... I'm sure he's a lovely bloke IRL.

Personally, I don't much care.  EQ2 is the only game, so far, that I've enjoyed and I'll probably play it again at some point.  I like the blokes who post here and as people what they think... that's a good thing.  The EQ2 guys seem to have listened to their critics, taken them seriously and made changes that have been beneficial.  That isn't the usual course for SOE... they still have the most abysmal regard for their customers.  It's nice to see the exceptions, too bad their not the rule.

I'm sorry, schild, I still love you like the son I never wanted but, to me, somewhere, for some reason I don't know... you've sold out.  Maybe someday you'll be a big wig at SOE but I hope you come to your senses instead.  I've always fancied you as a lumberjack.

Edit:  Poor EQ2.  This is it's thread so I'll not mention SWG in it again.  On topic:  I like EQ2's new content making it easier to solo and get things done.  I dislike the fact that the early level areas seem so under-populated and the crafting mini-game just pisses me off.  It's trivial to crafting.  I'd rather see experimentation with materials and uber appearance customisation instead.

[Shockeye]

I'm sorry, schild, I still love you like the son I never wanted but, to me, somewhere, for some reason I don't know... you've sold out.  Maybe someday you'll be a big wig at SOE but I hope you come to your senses instead.  I've always fancied you as a lumberjack.

If by "selling out" you mean we are still paying all the server bills and still have real jobs and have to find time to keep the website updated and interesting, yes schild, Haemish and I have "sold out".

[Signe]

You know that's not what I mean.

[Cheddar]

Look, in Schilds defense whenever SOE games come into play he has always seemed to speak well of them.  But, seriously, you cannot say that SOE has been ethical towards its customers, and the treatment lately is borderline suicide.  I hope they succeed with SWG... I really do.  But the method they went about it was pure shit to the customer base.  And this is not the first time they have done something to a customer(s).  

I was not calling Schild out... I assume he knows something we do not (as in awesome patches to come, boobies, or something else cool to the SOE customer base).  Sorry if my remark about being paid by people struck close to home.

[Shockeye]

You know that's not what I mean.

But that's the reality of it. You might want to believe that we're somehow in SOE's pocket, but we simply aren't. They aren't paying us enough... or at all.

As for me defending schild, you have to remember I defended Bruce as well.

[Signe]

You know that's not what I mean.

But that's the reality of it. You might want to believe that we're somehow in SOE's pocket, but we simply aren't. They aren't paying us enough... or at all.

As for me defending schild, you have to remember I defended Bruce as well.

I'm happy you defend schild, and I'm not suggesting that anyone is in anyone else pocket, although that could be kind of exciting on a purely physical level.  I just get the feeling the SOE was nice and Smedley was a good ole bloke and now they can get away with things they previously would have been crucified upside down for by some people here.  I never meant anything to do with money.  I'm sure if that were the case, I'd be seeing SOE advertising on the front page.  Don't become offended or defensive, I just thought a wee bit of criticism was deserved.

I don't waste my hate on companies like SOE.  My hate is precious.  Give me a Union Carbide or a Prudential Insurance and I'll give you hate.     I have to say, Sony's practices lately with the music side of their operation has given me quite a case of agita, though.

[Shockeye]

I just get the feeling the SOE was nice and Smedley was a good ole bloke and now they can get away with things they previously would have been crucified upside down for by some people here.

I only met two people from SOE, Raph and Smed. Smed did not breathe fire and he did not have a pig under his arm. His keynote speech was interesting and I have to admit it was nice to hear that he reads the website regularly. I wish he'd given me a briefcase full of cash and asked us to be easy on him, but he didn't do that. I guess there's always next year.

I never meant anything to do with money.  I'm sure if that were the case, I'd be seeing SOE advertising on the front page.  Don't become offended or defensive, I just thought a wee bit of criticism was deserved.

When you accuse someone of "selling out", the only conotation I know of involves money. This community has never been about hugs and pats on the back so criticism isn't something that I find offensive. Should we be holding SOE's feet to the fire a bit more? Maybe, probably, I don't know. They screwed up with Trials of Obi-Wan and they did leverage the NGE on the backs of their current players.

[Evil Elvis]

They screwed up with Trials of Obi-Wan and they did leverage the NGE on the backs of their current players.

If by levereging the nge on the backs of the current players, you meant they rammed it up their customers shit-box, dry, yeah, we're in agreement.

That had to be the most underhanded thing done to a mmorpg.  Somewhere, Dave Bowman shed a tear.

[Fabricated]

Is there a clear idea of who really is to blame for the decision though? Was this top level management saying, "THE PERCENTAGE RETURN NUMBERS ON THIS..."STARR WARRZ" ONLINE SUBSCRIPTION PRODUCT ARE NOT UP TO SNUFF. I WANT YOU TO SYNERGIZE THE GAME WITH THESE CHANGES MY POOL BOY THOUGHT OF AND MAY FIRE A COUPLE PEOPLE TOO. DISMISSED, GET BACK TO PICKING MY COTTON," or was it purely at the SWG team level?

[Cheddar]

Is there a clear idea of who really is to blame for the decision though? Was this top level management saying, "THE PERCENTAGE RETURN NUMBERS ON THIS..."STARR WARRZ" ONLINE SUBSCRIPTION PRODUCT ARE NOT UP TO SNUFF. I WANT YOU TO SYNERGIZE THE GAME WITH THESE CHANGES MY POOL BOY THOUGHT OF AND MAY FIRE A COUPLE PEOPLE TOO. DISMISSED, GET BACK TO PICKING MY COTTON," or was it purely at the SWG team level?

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that it seems like a high level decision (from what I have read).  I seriously doubt anyone with even a smidgeon of pride would release something in this manner. 

[SuperPopTart]

Smedley himself might be nice, I don't care. My hate roams equally and he annoys the fluck out of me whenever I hear his name mentioned.

SOE business practices suck.

SOE Customer Service sucks.

SOE as a whole has very few redeeming qualities.

[schild]

I think we're all very off base here. I defend SOE because somehow, the folks here think they deserve to be the target for target practice. Look, every MMOG company sucks in the same ways. There are no new ways to fuck the pigs here. Just take a look around, I'm not saying SOE makes the best games or has the best business practices. I don't think any MMOG dev deserves those proclamations. The way I look at it, personally, I'm sick of ragging on MMOG dev groups. That's why I haven't done it to anyone really. Sure, I said Eve was slow, and I've said the old SWG game sucked balls and a number of other things. But these are things everyone already knows. There's a difference between selling out and taking a different view on the entire situation. . I don't want to fight with these VERY stalwart people anymore. They aren't going to change like that. There was a time when it was funny and almost useful to be irrational and crazy about the dumb shit they do on a near daily basis. I defend SOE only because they had the balls to [TRY] change. Sure they screwed up but they don't need to read us to know that - even though they do, lots of them do. Obviously you aren't going to invoke change with shit, honey has become a necessity.

Signe:

Selling out: To compromise one's values and/or aristic vision in order to gain fame and/or monetary profit.

You can call me a sell out, but as I said above the reality is that I'm tired of fighting the hard fight. Uphill battles just aren't worth it. I've voted with my dollar, it's the best I can do at the moment. Luckily, I have another outlet. F13. As for ethicality on the SW:G issue, I don't think it was ethical. I also think the only other choice was to shut it down 6 months to a year down the line. Thus fucking everyone who bought the game and especially those people that bought the new expansion. As for the customers on that end of the stick... Morons. The lot of them. The original game was ass of the highest level. SOE realized that before the customers actually said it. People have been fighting for a more twitch based combat system in that game for years now. It's what Star Wars should be (unless they adopted the KotoR system). Unfortunately what they implemented wasn't....perfect. Fine. Swing and a miss. But the customers need to learn to put their money where their mouth is before I start giving two shits. A lot of the people here sat through Trammel, ToA, and other game altering expansions. Same situation. Put your money where your mouth is. If you still think I'm selling out, fine, but I'll be over here enjoying my console games (and Fate).

[Blackguard]

I should really spend about an hour writing a reply to this thread or simply pretend it doesn't exist, but I'm going to go ahead an whip something up in the 5 minutes I have before heading out to see Kong.

Is SOE evil? No... although I'm not allowed to answer that question. I will admit that there have been some bad calls in the past, and there will almost certainly be some bad calls in the future, but never have we had disdain for our players. You're our customers, and you make the games tick. Any decisions made are made for the betterment of the game and community as a whole, even if they don't always seem that way. Again, I will admit to screwing up once-in-a-while. We all do, and it's the only way we can learn not to make mistakes.

Each and every one of us who works at SOE does so because we love games, and almost all of us (especially me, given my role) love the communities that play our games. The truth of the matter is that I could be making more money designing websites or writing programs all day, but I work on EverQuest II as its Community Relations Manager because I love games and I love communities. If we really wanted to screw over our players, we'd simply all go out and start an applications firm rather than make video games.

It's easy to demonize a company and all its employees for making a few bad decisions or for doing something that indirectly screwed you over in some way, but we're all gamers just like you trying to make the best games we can. We may try things that you feel are deplorable in some way, but we're not doing so for the wrong reasons. I suppose there's really no way to explain how evil I am not to someone who isn't in the game industry, or doesn't work at SOE. If you ever end up joining our team, you'll find that I'm actually not full of crap. ;)

[SuperPopTart]

Dear Mister Community Relations Manager,

I think it's absolutely fantastic that you love your player base. I think it is great that you work at SOE and your present employment because you have a genuine affection and love for your workplace, the game itself, gaming in general and the community at large. That is wonderful and really I wish everyone were as happy as you seemingly are. However, that being said, it is your job to mediate between community and company, and may I say? You can't touch the untouchables. You represent a company that for lack of a better term, isn't there.

What does this mean?

This means that basically, you are non existent. We don't see you.

We do however see the following:

We see you on patch day. We see you after an expansion is released. We see you provide an "eh" of technical support. We see you during conventions. We see you appear in game sometimes around the holiday or well..yeah around the holiday. We see you post on your message boards in these impersonal, sickly sweet "have to be a good guy" posts that dumb down the player base.

That's great.

Unfortunately, this is not exclusive to one company or you'd be out of business. SOE, like a few other companies out there have made lots and lots of very bad calls for their players. Usually without explaining themselves beyond a typical memo type patch message. We demonize you because you deserve to be demonized. Not always - but it's well earned.

On the plus side, you seem like a really nice person so it is my hope that since you have been posting and are actually taking the time to answer posts like these you are making a difference that in my opinion SOE needs. It's very cool of you to do so.

And I promise I don't think you are full of crap.. just a bit.. off. Then again, aren't we all. ;-)

[Akkori]

It sickens me every time I see someone claim that SOE does not have disdain for the playerbase. Look, I was one of their biggest fans since the day after SWG launched. I am telling you that SOE does NOT care enough about the playerbase at large. Yes, they care about certain sections of players **COUGH*jedi*COUGH**. Yes, some of the decisions they made made the game beter (combat). But they spent YEARS almost completely ignoring whole sections of players.... Umm.. Crafters, Entertainers, Ranger, Smugglers, Squad Leaders, etc...

If SOE had put an equal amount of effort into ALL cross-sections of gameplay, if they had spent even a mere 10% of their development budget on fixing bugs that were in game for YEARS, then SWG would not be taking a nose-dive right now.

Maybe people at the top level should have hidden their disdian better. I mean, come on, you cant give an interview with a game mag and say that FOrum Posters are whiners, and then expect people to think you respect us. Maybe you should not have leaders at LA say things like "reading is too hard", and "people dont like complex games".

Blackguard, please, tell me how removing all Decay from the game HELPED crafters? You say decisions were made for the betterment of the WHOLE game. And since crafters are still technically part of the game, how did removing decay help crafters?

We dont demonize SOE for making a "few bad decisions", okay? We demonize them for making 2 YEARS worth of bad decisions. Over and over and over again. The NGE was a bad idea. Period. The combat system introduced could have fit in with the post-CURRB game. There was no need to make the game as dumbed-down as it currently is. You guys pickd the easy way, IMO. You were all afraid to tackle the bugs and imbalances in the game, and decided to wipe it and start fresh. And you STILL didnt get it quite right. And you wont as long as the people at the top keep trying to dictate to the real Devs how to do things.

The SWG I knew and loved is dead. It was killed by the bean-counters in suits. They did it on purpose. They ignored the vocal minority on the forums... the people (like me) who spent many many hours trying to come up with ideas to make the game better. They decided we are all morons and nothing we wanted was possible. So instead they developed THREE new game systems in 2 years off the money we were paying them. We would rather have seen that money spent in adding new content and fixing bugs. But who cares what we want, right?

[Shockeye]

They ignored the vocal minority on the forums...

SOE is a business. They are in this to make money. Money is not made appealing or listening to a minority. As unethical the timing was, they are out to make a profit and as such are going to cater to whatever group of customers brings in the biggest profit.

[Hoax]

I'm sure Poptart did a much better job then I, but Schild man I like so much of what you say but you are WRONG WRONG WRONG this time.

SoE fucked the SWG fanboi's, hard, very very very hard in a very very naughty place.  Sure they are SWG fanboi's, I hold them in plenty of disdain for playing that crappy game with classes that haven't worked for however many years?  Who are such stupid diluted fools that they just now are realizing they were paying money to play in a sandbox that someone kept leaving broken beer bottles in.  But that doesn't make what SoE did excusable, I love the idea of twitch based MMO's more then even you do, but that doesn't make destroying a game people have been playing for years an ok thing to do.

Within their rights?  I dunno EULA's scare me, but fucking a man, pretending you dont see what a con-job this NGE thing was is like 500 times more crazy then the whole: Atari did not exist! That was not a generation! Slap-fight a month back.

Please, put down the crackpipe and go back to talking about games with cool combat/inventory/item/level/progression systems that could make a better MMO then all the EQ lookalike shit we have to play with now.  I keep hoping someone will hear you, perhaps even one of our SOE visitors?  So they can redeem themselves for publishing terrible games, then doing terrible things to the customers of those terrible games and failing to make Planetside + play to crush - sb.exe.

*edit* DING 900, I retire from posting, as a champ, or something....

[SuperPopTart]

They ignored the vocal minority on the forums...

SOE is a business. They are in this to make money. Money is not made appealing or listening to a minority. As unethical the timing was, they are out to make a profit and as such are going to cater to whatever group of customers brings in the biggest profit.

You can't try and bullshit monopoly after you try so damn hard to personalize it.

Clarification:

If you want to be a whore, be a whore, don't play it nice, play it straight.

[Cheddar]

They ignored the vocal minority on the forums...

SOE is a business. They are in this to make money. Money is not made appealing or listening to a minority. As unethical the timing was, they are out to make a profit and as such are going to cater to whatever group of customers brings in the biggest profit.

They pretty much destroyed their entire playerbase, and introduced a system with more holes then swiss cheese.  If they had launched something at least 3/4 done perhaps things would not seem so dire.  

This was suicide, and beyond coming up with a method to bring in a few hundred thousand mouth breathers (NGE is not it), SOE has fundamentally damaged their credibility.  This was not a nerf.  This was not adding some new mechanics.  This was complete SCORCHED EARTH.

But what do I know?  Up until this point I preferred to use my wallet to voice my opinion.  I do hope they recover, and realize there is talent with the company.  Still does not erase the truth.

[schild]

I'm going to rip this apart. Sorry, it's your fault.

It sickens me every time I see someone claim that SOE does not have disdain for the playerbase.

Everyone has a certain amount of disdain for a playerbase. They are a pain in the fucking ass. But you also pay their bills. It's a tug of war game to keep you paying while keeping your mouth fucking shut.

Look, I was one of their biggest fans since the day after SWG launched.

No one cares and no one even knows what that means. Do you want SWG tattooed on your titty? Seriously. People don't say that stupid shit anymore because it's never ever ever true.

I am telling you that SOE does NOT care enough about the playerbase at large. Yes, they care about certain sections of players **COUGH*jedi*COUGH**. Yes, some of the decisions they made made the game beter (combat). But they spent YEARS almost completely ignoring whole sections of players.... Umm.. Crafters, Entertainers, Ranger, Smugglers, Squad Leaders, etc...

SOE does care about the people playing their bills. But if 90% of their userbase wants jedi or bounty hunter, expect the rest of the classes to be neglected. Which, in turn, causes the members of those classes to raise their voice and become the bigger pain in the ass. When the reality of it is that the game shouldn't have had more than 5-6 classes to begin with. They aren't ignoring the other sections of players, they just aren't worth enough money. When your goal as a company is to make money, yea, I sort of expect that sort of action to be taken.

If SOE had put an equal amount of effort into ALL cross-sections of gameplay, if they had spent even a mere 10% of their development budget on fixing bugs that were in game for YEARS, then SWG would not be taking a nose-dive right now.

Bullshit.

Maybe people at the top level should have hidden their disdian better. I mean, come on, you cant give an interview with a game mag and say that FOrum Posters are whiners, and then expect people to think you respect us. Maybe you should not have leaders at LA say things like "reading is too hard", and "people dont like complex games".

This is where I step in and ask why you aren't running a game company instead of whatever it is you do. To which I say - because you are a scorned fanboi. At the end of the day, you got fucked so you think you can do a better job because you know how to solve the problem YOU had. They respect you enough, enough to look at the metrics and make a list of what is of utmost important. If 10,000 people are quietly complaining about a jedi skill and 1,000 people are LOUDLY complaining about an entertainer skill, there's no amount of loudness that makes a difference. You aren't as important.

We dont demonize SOE for making a "few bad decisions", okay? We demonize them for making 2 YEARS worth of bad decisions. Over and over and over again. The NGE was a bad idea. Period. The combat system introduced could have fit in with the post-CURRB game. There was no need to make the game as dumbed-down as it currently is. You guys pickd the easy way, IMO.

The NGE wasn't a bad idea. It should have launched with something like it. As for the easy way out, wrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng. Couldn't be more wrong. You try putting something like that on top of all the existing architecture, particularly in a game like SW:G. Also, they ADMITTED to not being able to work on and balance 36 classes. Where the fuck were you when all the official responses came out? Oh, right screaming about how your baby was taken away.

You were all afraid to tackle the bugs and imbalances in the game, and decided to wipe it and start fresh. And you STILL didnt get it quite right. And you wont as long as the people at the top keep trying to dictate to the real Devs how to do things.

Akkori, meet ivory tower. Also, Star Wars, for the most part, makes for terrible gaming. The bad decision was made when they decided to license the goddamn thing. It's cursed, I swear.

The SWG I knew and loved is dead. It was killed by the bean-counters in suits. They did it on purpose. They ignored the vocal minority on the forums... the people (like me) who spent many many hours trying to come up with ideas to make the game better. They decided we are all morons and nothing we wanted was possible. So instead they developed THREE new game systems in 2 years off the money we were paying them. We would rather have seen that money spent in adding new content and fixing bugs. But who cares what we want, right?

Right.

Edit: Shockeye said all that in less words. Then Cheddar pointed out why it was a bad judgement. But my opinion still stands. When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.

[Cheddar]

One more thing.  This is not a product....this is a fucking service.  If McDonalds tomorrow switched from Burgers to Tacos, what do you think would happen?  Especially if they did not warn anyone that the changes were going in AFTER they made their order that day.

McD's: Sir, here are your 2 tacos!
Customer:  2 Tacos?  WTF I order a McRoyal with cheese pimples!
McD's:  But sir, Tacos are better.  They have spicy stuff!!!
Customer:  WTF??? These do not even have cheese dude!
McD's:  We will have cheese next week. 
Customer:  WTF?
Taco Bell customer:  Suck it up nooblets.


edit.  Was it a good idea?  Sure.  But you cannot treat customers in that manner and not expect the worst.  It all comes back to ethics, and wether people will trust you in the future.  That bothers me.

[schild]

SoE fucked the SWG fanboi's, hard, very very very hard in a very very naughty place.  Sure they are SWG fanboi's, I hold them in plenty of disdain for playing that crappy game with classes that haven't worked for however many years?  Who are such stupid diluted fools that they just now are realizing they were paying money to play in a sandbox that someone kept leaving broken beer bottles in.  But that doesn't make what SoE did excusable, I love the idea of twitch based MMO's more then even you do, but that doesn't make destroying a game people have been playing for years an ok thing to do.

Within their rights?  I dunno EULA's scare me, but fucking a man, pretending you dont see what a con-job this NGE thing was is like 500 times more crazy then the whole: Atari did not exist! That was not a generation! Slap-fight a month back.

Would canceling the game a few months after an expansion came out have been ok? I mean, I'm looking at extremes here. Not a happy medium. This industry doesn't know happy mediums.

Please, put down the crackpipe and go back to talking about games with cool combat/inventory/item/level/progression systems that could make a better MMO then all the EQ lookalike shit we have to play with now.

I've become a jaded version of my jaded self. Maybe my binge drinking plans tomorrow will fix that.

*edit* DING 900, I retire from posting, as a champ, or something....

Nah, keep posting, 900 is weak sauce.

[squirrel]

You see, there's the problem. What fucking ethical rule have they broken? A lot of the SOE hate imho is completely unjustified.

How about releasing pay for expansion two weeks before gutting the game the expansion is for? Sure glad they fixed creature handlers for those 14 days. And yes i know they offered refunds, well after the fact and only prompted by a huge outcry. This is a totally unethical business practice in any industry, in fact in some better regulated industries it's illegal.

This ignores all the other CSR and PR bullshit they've pulled on their customers over the last 6 years, which apparently falls under ethical in your book. When did you become such an SOE shrill?

[schild]

Keep reading the thread, n00bkins.

Edit: Left out a word.

[Cheddar]

<words> The way I look at it, personally, I'm sick of ragging on MMOG dev groups. That's why I haven't done it to anyone really. <words>Obviously you aren't going to invoke change with shit, honey has become a necessity.

<a lot more words>

Lum realized this YEARS ago (mind you he needed a job, but regardless), and I honestly think the industry has benefitted from him turning to the grey side (I refuse to believe these people are sitting around, tossing babies on spits, praying to their fluffy cat Gods and enslaving crickets to build their Temples).  But personally I think it would be better to choose a more... open... company to campaign and defend.  

But I agree.  More honey, less feces flinging.  If you have the ability to actually get that honey to them that is (I can only veto my dollar).

[squirrel]

Keep reading the thread, n00bkins.

Edit: Left out a word.

I did eminent one. And i still don't see how you can justify their actions as ethical, which was the crux of the argument. I don't give a fuck if you think the customers are idiots or if they actually are idiots. That's neither here nor there. Personally i think the NGE was a well intended change completely mismanaged. That's also neither here nor there.

What's a fact is that they charged a few hundred thousand people for a product THEY KNEW THEY WERE NOT GOING TO DELIVER. Fuck, it's so obvious they were willingly screwing people i can't believe you'd defend it as an ethical practice. And please, lay off the 'a game is at steak!' melodrama - the what and the how are completely separate topics.

What fucking disdain? Give me an example of disdain. A single one. I can see a little disregard here and there, but you can't tell me that drastic changes to SW:G weren't necessary. So try and find a real example. I can show you places where nearly every other MMORPG company has pulled some of the same shit time and time again. Yet you're still playing MMORPGs, so that's obviously not what set you off.

Um ok how about selling an expansion based on features and improvements that you KNEW were going to be irrelelvant 14 days after you'd drained the walking wallets called customers you'd just lied to. WTF. I can't think of a single example of a AAA MMORPG pulling anything this underhanded or unethical. How about you provide examples of this occuring time and time again?

Oh and thanks, i thought only IGN and WoW boards insulted people with noobkins. Yer sure leet. or something.

[Akkori]

Well Schild, we may not agree on much, but we DO agree that SWG should never have come to pass. I would have loved for my first MMO to have been identical to SWG but in some other science-fiction setting. We also agree that the combat should have been in the first incarnation... along with collision detection. We again agree that money, not ethics, controls the actions of SOE (well, I added the ethics part, heheh, but its TRUE!).

I will gladly develop a game. Someone point me toward a SILENT investor, and I will design a SWG2003/WoW/Eve/ATitD game that will satify ALL of the BArtle stlyes of MMO gamers. I will regularly and loudly tell the suits up top to fuck off and be happy with what they get. I will also make use of the thousands, nay *millions* of man-hours available to game companies by putting in a system by which PLAYERS can design content, and craft Art & Music assets for inclusion in the game.

Its just a matter of setting expectations and sticking to them. If the game is making the middle 8 figures a yaer (such as SWG was, easily), why push for 9 digits? If 9 digits happens, great, if not, no problem. Greed killed SWG. (and btw, it IS true I am a day 2 veteran)

[HaemishM]

Are you kidding? Same level as EA? They're doing something ANYTHING that's near the equivalent of buying companies that are good and running them into the ground or simply snuffing them out? I'd like to know where on the doll they touched whoever.

Its an ethical issue in my eyes- to me it is equivalent as to why I am not purchasing EA games.  'tis all.

How much IS Sony paying you, Schild?  I am curious as to why you keep defending these guys when they show time and again disdain for their players.  I am all about a little biting and scratching, but drawing blood is generally where I draw the line.

I haven't even read all of this thread. And I just have to say...


WHAT...


THE...

FUCK??

Seriously, are we fucking 13 years old and talking about Metallica making a motherfucking video? What in anyway makes you think this fucking site or schild has been or is being paid by SOE or any other company? I don't see SOE ad banners everywhere. You don't see Star Wars Galaxies Starter Kits sponosoring every page.

We get fuckall for writing on this site. Occasionally, someone will pay us for ad space. Otherwise, this is something Shockeye and Schild pay out of their pockets for.

Are you saying this because schild got a trip to Austin to see the NGE before it got released? I'd have done that. In a fucking heartbeat. It's not often you see someone stupid enough to pay the air fare of people who generally speaking talk more shit about them than homophobes talk about La Cages Aux Folles. This is somehow a bad thing? How is that selling out? Did he come back and say "SOE IS DA GREATEST BUY ALL THEIR STUFFZZZ LOLXZOR!"

I'll take the tag "SELL OUT" when I'm drawing a motherfucking check from someone AND not saying what I think about them. Before that, keep it in fucking high school.

[SuperPopTart]

Editing this for stupidity, I can just look over at you and yell at you for swearing.

It'll be like we are in high school.

[schild]

Squirrel, I'm skipping the rest of your post because this situation is considered unethical and worthy of debate in a way that Mourning and Horizons wasn't. Also, if this had happened with Ryzom or something no one would have given a shit and everyone would have lolled at the french...again. Like I said before, I'm tired of being irrational.

Oh and thanks, i thought only IGN and WoW boards insulted people with noobkins. Yer sure leet. or something.

Regrettably, I thought I was being original and cute because you share a name with a small woodland creature. I don't read IGN or the WoW boards. /sadf