Sigil Making Marvel MMOG

[cevik]

Oh, and fuck levels.  ... but superheroes generally don't increase much in power no matter how many foozles they wack.

Didn't follow X-men, did ya?  Or Spider Man?  Or the Hulk?  In fact, pretty much the entire Marvel Universe is the antithesis of your statement.

[Velorath]

Oh, and fuck levels.  ... but superheroes generally don't increase much in power no matter how many foozles they wack.

Didn't follow X-men, did ya?  Or Spider Man?  Or the Hulk?  In fact, pretty much the entire Marvel Universe is the antithesis of your statement.

Spider-man has got the exact same powers now as he did when he started (except for maybe the spider tracer).  Characters he fought in his first few issues like Ock and Sandman he still fights today.  He's not trading blows with Thanos and winning now.  The Hulk's power flucuates, but it has nothing to do with experience from fighting bad guys.  Sometimes he's stronger (usually when Green), sometimes weaker (usually when Grey).  Doesn't really translate to levels at all and I'd love to see the bitching when someone's character de-levels due to psychological issues.  X-men have roster changes but individually only become more or less powerful based on who's writing them and revert back to normal when someone else takes over.  Claremont has a habit of making the women super-powerful like Storm.  Beast grew blue fur.  Hell of a power up there.

[cevik]

Spider-man has got the exact same powers now as he did when he started (except for maybe the spider tracer).  Characters he fought in his first few issues like Ock and Sandman he still fights today.  He's not trading blows with Thanos and winning now.  The Hulk's power flucuates, but it has nothing to do with experience from fighting bad guys.  Sometimes he's stronger (usually when Green), sometimes weaker (usually when Grey).  Doesn't really translate to levels at all and I'd love to see the bitching when someone's character de-levels due to psychological issues.  X-men have roster changes but individually only become more or less powerful based on who's writing them and revert back to normal when someone else takes over.  Claremont has a habit of making the women super-powerful like Storm.  Beast grew blue fur.  Hell of a power up there.

Man, are you even reading the same comics as I?  Do you understand the words or are you just looking at the pretty pictures?

Spider man starts off as a punk kid who doesn't fully understand his powers, sure they are the same but he lacks "teh control" and sucks at using them.  The same story is mirrored thus far in the movies (remember all the trying to swing from webs until he finally succeeded). 

The X-men is ALL ABOUT A SCHOOL FOR 'GIFTED' CHILDREN.  They all show up and have no fucking clue how to use their powers.  Professor Xavier takes them out and teaches them how to control their powers and fight. 

Stan Lee has exactly ONE story that every single one of his comics is based on, it's the "unlikely hero" who has the potential for great power if only they understood what was in themselves.  The same fucking metaphor that every fantasy book EVER has been based on.  The whole concept of leveling isn't that "you gain more power as you grow", it's that experience teaches you how to unleash your full potential.  Every one of marvel's comics are nothing if they aren't watching a level grind in action.

Fuck, maybe you only read X-men 250 and beyond, or Spiderman after issue 300 or whatever, those issues are long after spiderman/cyclops/whoever reached the level cap and are doing end game raiding.  Go fire up your favorite peer to peer client and download the first 100 x-men and spider man comics.  You'll get to watch your favorite mmog treadmill all wrapped into story form for your pleasure.

[HaemishM]

Hey, I googled and there IS a Stilt man and he DOES have... umm... stilts!  Cool.

Do not diss the power that is Stilt-Man!

He's actually one of my favorite useless Daredevil villains.

[Sky]

(who will probably have formed their own teams like Avengers South East or something)

Avengers South Central in da hizzay, bitchazz! You know it to be true.

Marvel heroes didn't level up. Nope.

[Llava]

(except for the character creation part and they still haven't bothered to increase the costume choices by an appreciable amount).

Unless you count the stuff they added in CoV, which at least doubled, possibly quadrupled, the number of options in character costume creation.

[Signe]

Hey, I googled and there IS a Stilt man and he DOES have... umm... stilts!  Cool.

Do not diss the power that is Stilt-Man!

He's actually one of my favorite useless Daredevil villains.

Geez... I said COOL didn't I?  You people and your pagan idols!

[ahoythematey]

Why can't they MMO-grify a more surreal/humorous comic universe like New England Comics or something.  I want my Paul the Samurai MMO.

[Nevermore]

Archie Online?

[Signe]

I think a Johnny the Homicidal Maniac MMO might be fun.  I only know about this because someone sent me crap about it a while ago.  Comics are not my thang.

[Samwise]

I want my Paul the Samurai MMO.

OMG yes please.

[cevik]

Here is the first 4 years (or so) of X-men in mmog form:

Professor X had a beta account in the mmog, and he and his friend Magneto knew all the prime leveling spots.  They were going to level up to 60 real quick and form a guild.  But Magneto was hardcore power gamer and Prof X wanted the guild to be more casual/family friendly.  Magneto was the first to get 10 gold so he was the one that bought the guild charter and was the guild leader.  Magneto kept putting together ganking parties to pk noobs, and Prof X spent his workdays on the message boards listening to cries of "ZOMFG, PORF X IS A PKER."  When Prof X confronted Magneto, Magneto /gkicked him.

Prof X went and talked to his old Shadowbane guild and promised if they came over he would help powerlevel them up so they can start a better guild than Magneto's crappy guild, plus Prof X was rich IRL so his dad would pay for a teamspeak server and a guild webpage.  Five people were sick of the bugs in Shadowbane so they came over and made a tank (Beast), a dps hunter (cyclops), a ice mage (iceman, he's asian and a bit immature so he mainly says keke la), a rogue (angel, plus he has leet travel powers) and a crowd controller (jean grey).

So they begin trying to level up and get the guild started, but mageneto keeps pking them and taking all their stuff, which totally pisses them off.  Eventually, after fighting several silly lower level mobs, they make it to around level 40 and can hold their own in pvp, but they are all still noobish and lose more than they win.  Jean Grey starts to cyber every night with Cyclops.

They recruit some new members, including a leet pvp rogue build who had been level up to the cap by a leet pvp guild called the US Government (Wolverine is his name).  Also, in a campy side story to add drama, a silly dps flurry tank that sucks is recruited, and two comics later cancels his account and quits the game because the developers hate non-standard builds like tanks who dps instead of tank (Thunderbird).  Jean Grey thinks the new rogue is HAWT and starts to cyber with him as well.

Cyclops finds out that Jean Grey is cybering him and the rogue and gets pissed and quits the game to deal with IRL issues.  Jean Grey is like totally crying IRL and quits as well.  Eventually Cyclops realizes he can't get a girl irl and comes back to the game.  He calls Jean Grey on the phone and convinces her to come back as well.  She had been cybering with the rogue on AIM in the meantime.  She promies to marry Cyclops in the game to prove how much she loves him.

Jean decides that the devs hate psychics and the build is total underpowered, and she is sick of being left back at the guildhall to guard it while everyone else pvps, so she respecs to a fire build because she read those were awesome on the message boards.  The guild quickly powerlevels her, but the devs think fire is totally overpowered and nerf them and she freaks out and quits the game because the devs hate her.

In the meantime one of the other guildies rolls a pyschic because the devs changed the talent tree for pyschics and they are totally overpowered now.  Cyclops begins to cyber with "her", and they do get married in the game.  Cyclops starts spending less and less time in game and more and more time cybering with the new "girl" on AIM.

Jean Grey realizes that she is fat and ugly IRL, and her husband totally hates her, so she comes back to the game so she can cyber with cyclops and wolverine again and totally attention whore.  She finds out that cyclops is married and totally flips out and goes all drama queen.  She eventually finds out, through a new pk guild on the server, that cyclop's new woman is a mangina, and she starts accusing him of being gay.  Cyclops flips out because he's totally not ready to confront the fact that he's gay.  Wolverine joins another guild, Jean Grey and Cyclops both cancel their accounts, Angel goes PK and the dev's nerf the intellect on tanks and change the teir 3 armor to this totally ugly blue color, so Beast respecs to an all strength build.

Menwhile, Professor X decides the drama is pathetic and finds a new group of noobs to powerlevel up to fight Magneto.

Marvel was made for mmogs.

[Simond]

I'd rather be in the Defenders than the Avengers. Mmm...Valkyrie!

I'd rather be in The Authority. "Humanity fucking things up? Let's take over"
Plus pseudo-Batman and pseudo-Superman in a canon gay marriage = slashfic writers give up and wave a little white flag.

[HaemishM]

Stuff

That hurt me so bad, I think a testicle just rolled down my leg and dropped into my shoe.

[Velorath]

Spider-man has got the exact same powers now as he did when he started (except for maybe the spider tracer).  Characters he fought in his first few issues like Ock and Sandman he still fights today.  He's not trading blows with Thanos and winning now.  The Hulk's power fluctuates, but it has nothing to do with experience from fighting bad guys.  Sometimes he's stronger (usually when Green), sometimes weaker (usually when Grey).  Doesn't really translate to levels at all and I'd love to see the bitching when someone's character de-levels due to psychological issues.  X-men have roster changes but individually only become more or less powerful based on who's writing them and revert back to normal when someone else takes over.  Claremont has a habit of making the women super-powerful like Storm.  Beast grew blue fur.  Hell of a power up there.

Man, are you even reading the same comics as I?  Do you understand the words or are you just looking at the pretty pictures?

Spider man starts off as a punk kid who doesn't fully understand his powers, sure they are the same but he lacks "teh control" and sucks at using them.  The same story is mirrored thus far in the movies (remember all the trying to swing from webs until he finally succeeded). 

The X-men is ALL ABOUT A SCHOOL FOR 'GIFTED' CHILDREN.  They all show up and have no fucking clue how to use their powers.  Professor Xavier takes them out and teaches them how to control their powers and fight. 

Stan Lee has exactly ONE story that every single one of his comics is based on, it's the "unlikely hero" who has the potential for great power if only they understood what was in themselves.  The same fucking metaphor that every fantasy book EVER has been based on.  The whole concept of leveling isn't that "you gain more power as you grow", it's that experience teaches you how to unleash your full potential.  Every one of marvel's comics are nothing if they aren't watching a level grind in action.

Fuck, maybe you only read X-men 250 and beyond, or Spiderman after issue 300 or whatever, those issues are long after spiderman/cyclops/whoever reached the level cap and are doing end game raiding.  Go fire up your favorite peer to peer client and download the first 100 x-men and spider man comics.  You'll get to watch your favorite mmog treadmill all wrapped into story form for your pleasure.

That I've probably read a lot more comics than you isn't even the issue here.  That you say X-men is all about Xavier's School for the Gifted makes me wonder how many you've read, since between the first team (who have already been trained by the time we see them in #1) and Morrison's run the school itself is almost a non-factor aside from the Danger Room.  Even New Mutants and Generation X degenerated into typical superhero books rather than teaching kids how to use their powers.  That and you bring up Stan Lee like comics (and Marvel) haven't evolved since the 60's/early 70's.  He may have had one stock plot, but the genre has grown beyond that.

Anyway this is the part where it would probably help if you quoted my whole fucking post.  You know, where I suggested that characters learn new ways to use their powers through using them a lot.  That I can understand.  Sometimes in battle Spidey thinks of a new way to use his webbing.  At some point Hulk figured out how to do his sonic clap.

But levels do not work.  No matter how many people Punisher shoots, he will always be a street level hero.  Same with Cap, Daredevil, Black Panther, and others.  Thor was born a God, and given more power through his belt and hammer.  He didn't level up off bank robbers.  Hulk's power level has gone up and down.  Like I pointed out, most of these guys still fight the same villains they did when they were created.  If they were constantly getting more powerful from their victories or training, than Spidey wouldn't have any sort of problem beating Doc Ock these days since he'd be "leveled" way past him.  Most of these characters though have had a pretty consistant level of "power" over the years.

In fantasy the lowliest Squire can end up becoming the most powerful hero.  In comics, Green Arrow is never going to outmatch Superman no matter how much he catasses.  He can come up with new arrows, or just become better at aiming.  Darkseid would still kill him.

[cevik]

(who have already been trained by the time we see them in #1)

See, I stoped reading here because you've obviously never even read X-men issue one.

Here I have it in my hands, I will quote for you the first sentence from Xavier in the book:

"Attention X-Men this is Professor Xavier calling, repeat this is Professor Xavier calling.  You are ordered to appear at once. Class is now in session.  Tardiness will be punished."

The emphasis was in the original book btw, I didn't add it.

The first book STARTS with Jean Grey, COMPLETELY UNTRAINED, showing up at the school.  The other members had had SOME training but the entire first half of the book involves practicing and more training.  Hell here's a quote from Issue 3 "Good work cyclops, your reaction time has speeded up 3% since last week.  No sawdust filled practice bag has gotten past your power beam."  WTF?!  No Leveling?!

The fact that your diatribe completely fucking abandons the first 100 issues of X-men because they don't fit in your "SUPER PEOPLE DON'T LEVEL!!1!one!" thesis is the most telling part of your argument.  You refuse to acknowledge the entire Stan Lee portion of the series (you know, the guy who created it) by claiming that the genre has evolved past that.  Well guess fucking what, that part of the series still exists and you know what?  It's all about the X-men leveling up.

The entire CONCEPT of Stan Lee's creations was that any old "squire" could eventually become a "Powerful Hero".  Fuck read any interview with Stan Lee, it was his fucking fetish.  The reason he created spiderman was because he felt the decilining readership of comics was because super-heros were not regular people, therefor it was impossible to "connect" with  them.  He made spiderman a dweeby little kid, just like every comic book reader in the world, then he had him bit by a radio-active spider to give him super powers.  Which he, of course, did not properly know how to use for the first several years of the series.  The whole point of every marvel comic is that you or I could become one of those "Gifted" kids..

[schild]

While I have read a lot of Marvel and agree with you, goddamn man.
 

[Velorath]

(who have already been trained by the time we see them in #1)

See, I stoped reading here because you've obviously never even read X-men issue one.

Here I have it in my hands, I will quote for you the first sentence from Xavier in the book:

"Attention X-Men this is Professor Xavier calling, repeat this is Professor Xavier calling.  You are ordered to appear at once. Class is now in session.  Tardiness will be punished."

The emphasis was in the original book btw, I didn't add it.

The first book STARTS with Jean Grey, COMPLETELY UNTRAINED, showing up at the school.  The other members had had SOME training but the entire first half of the book involves practicing and more training.  Hell here's a quote from Issue 3 "Good work cyclops, your reaction time has speeded up 3% since last week.  No sawdust filled practice bag has gotten past your power beam."  WTF?!  No Leveling?!

The fact that your diatribe completely fucking abandons the first 100 issues of X-men because they don't fit in your "SUPER PEOPLE DON'T LEVEL!!1!one!" thesis is the most telling part of your argument.  You refuse to acknowledge the entire Stan Lee portion of the series (you know, the guy who created it) by claiming that the genre has evolved past that.  Well guess fucking what, that part of the series still exists and you know what?  It's all about the X-men leveling up.

The entire CONCEPT of Stan Lee's creations was that any old "squire" could eventually become a "Powerful Hero".  Fuck read any interview with Stan Lee, it was his fucking fetish.  The reason he created spiderman was because he felt the decilining readership of comics was because super-heros were not regular people, therefor it was impossible to "connect" with  them.  He made spiderman a dweeby little kid, just like every comic book reader in the world, then he had him bit by a radio-active spider to give him super powers.  Which he, of course, did not properly know how to use for the first several years of the series.  The whole point of every marvel comic is that you or I could become one of those "Gifted" kids..

You can tell from actually reading #1 that they've been running these exact same drills off-panel for quite a while now (with the exception of the youngest, Iceman).  Long enough that when Magneto attacks Cape Citadel, Prof X. deems them ready to take on their first real mission.  And Jean Grey has been trained, just not at the school.  She was in a coma and the Prof. is the one that got her out of it and started training her how to actually use her powers, and this is why it sounds like you haven't read shit in past few decades.  

Fuck, for all your talk about the first 100 issues you don't even seem to realize that from 67-93 is all reprints and from that point on they go to the new team.  The Stan Lee era of X-men was poorly written crap that didn't sell.  Your quote from issue 3 would have gotten a comment of "show, don't tell" from my English teacher in Jr. High.  His reaction time has speeded up 3%?  That's great but is that ever really shown in the comics?  Can you tell after issue 3 that his reaction time is 3% faster?  Over the period of a few hundred X-books and 40 years can you say that Cyclops has shown a steady level of progression that leveling would imply?

Besides that, many of the tests Prof. X makes the X-men take seem to train one ability at a time which goes back to what I was saying about skills.  One of the tests he gives Beast is specifically designed to test his balance.  The other test (the one where he spins around on the bar real fast then bounces off the wall IIRC), is designed to test his agility and that particular manuever.  It's not "Ding, Grats!  You just gained some HP, Str, Dex and one new power to select", he's just improved his balance and perfected the manuever.

Get off Stan Lee's tip for a minute and try to understand that maybe "Early 1960's Marvel Broken Up Into Levels" isn't the best way to go for an MMO.  Training scenes from the first few issues of X-men aren't what you want to build a game around. 

Edit:  Fuck, I don't know why you're even trying to argue when your own examples support what I'm saying:

Spider man starts off as a punk kid who doesn't fully understand his powers, sure they are the same but he lacks "teh control" and sucks at using them.  The same story is mirrored thus far in the movies (remember all the trying to swing from webs until he finally succeeded).

In order to learn how to use his webs better and to develop the ability to swing from them, we see him attempt to do it until he eventually gets it right.  We don't see him beating on criminals until he levels up and gains Web Swinging 1.

[Triforcer]

The second page of this thread should be post of the year, as I don't believe I've ever in my life seen such a light-sucking Nerd Singularity.  I became less attractive to women just by being in the same room as a computer capable of displaying this thread.

[Velorath]

The second page of this thread should be post of the year, as I don't believe I've ever in my life seen such a light-sucking Nerd Singularity.  I became less attractive to women just by being in the same room as a computer capable of displaying this debate.

Like I've said elsewhere, I'm not going to be ashamed of being a big comic book fan on a site with boards for Everquest, WoW, and Magic: The Gathering.  I imagine if women read even a fraction of your posts your attractiveness to them would drop to non-existant.  Glass houses and all that.

[schild]

Comeon Velorath, the phrase "light-sucking nerd singularity" had to make you giggle. Hell, that whole post was funny. And I think he knew he was called the kettle black.

[Velorath]

Comeon Velorath, the phrase "light-sucking nerd singularity" had to make you giggle. Hell, that whole post was funny. And I think he knew he was called the kettle black.

I don't know, I've been around the intarweb long enough to not put it past a video game nerd to try to look down on a comic nerd.  With the way this topic went downhill though, I'm probably just being defensive now.

Edit:  To be honest there have been plenty of times where I've glanced at the Magic board (used to play a loooooooong time ago) and sometimes I want to scream "this shit is for nerds!".

Then I remember:  "I play video games, read comics, and spend a lot of time on the Internet.  I should probably just not say shit."

[Surlyboi]

Comeon Velorath, the phrase "light-sucking nerd singularity" had to make you giggle. Hell, that whole post was funny. And I think he knew he was called the kettle black.

What? You think just because a guy reads comics doesn't mean he can't start some shit?

[Merusk]

That comic makes me sad, because it reminds me where my nephew got his name.  Damn kids having kids.

[Surlyboi]

Could be worse, your nephew could be named "Silent Bob".

[cevik]

Edit:  Fuck, I don't know why you're even trying to argue when your own examples support what I'm saying:

Spider man starts off as a punk kid who doesn't fully understand his powers, sure they are the same but he lacks "teh control" and sucks at using them.  The same story is mirrored thus far in the movies (remember all the trying to swing from webs until he finally succeeded).

In order to learn how to use his webs better and to develop the ability to swing from them, we see him attempt to do it until he eventually gets it right.  We don't see him beating on criminals until he levels up and gains Web Swinging 1.

I think you are arguing with yourself, for the most part.

How do we get levels in a rpg?

Experience you say, really?

What does experience mean, perchance?  Here's what dictionary.com has to say:

"Active participation in events or activities, leading to the accumulation of knowledge or skill: a lesson taught by experience; a carpenter with experience in roof repair."

It's not that the warrior was born inately with no power to use a sword, or that a wizard suddenly gains the ability to control a new incantation at level, it's that their accumlated experience allows them to better control the power that they already have (hence a warrior becomes slightly better at using swords each time he uses one to hack off his opponents head, or a wizard gains the experience controlling magic that allows him to use more advanced magic).

Look, if I buy a sword tommorrow at the Ren Festival, I'm going to look like the Star Wars kid when I try to swing it around, after the tenth person who kicks the shit out of me for being a retard, I'll be slightly better at taking a beating, after the 1000th I'll be even better yet.  My accumulated experiences have given me more ability to wield the power I already controlled.  The same thing will occur if suddenly I can shoot webs from my hands tommorrow.  The first few times I try I'm going to look like a retard, the more experience I get the better I'll be.

The entire concept of leveling in a rpg is that your accumulated experiences make you better at what you do.  The first time you use your uber earth melting powers to fight crime, you're going to suck at it.  Eventually you'll be fucking pretty good at it (unless you get killed along the way), that's the very concept of leveling, and that's the very concept of the early Marvel comics.  I'm not quite certain what you think the Squire is doing in the fantasy game to get more "powerful", but it's all about practice makes perfect, be it a Squire or a noob super hero..

Sure, I don't want another level grind either, but to say that levels are any less meaningful in a comic book game than in a fantasy game is silly.  Hell, even The Tick went through a level grind from super-hero noob to.. well he never made it past level one, but the fucker tried..

Do you think that superheros are born knowing how to use their power, or do you think they learn with experience?  Fuck even Smallville is all about Clark Kent going through the level grind..

[Velorath]

Edit:  Fuck, I don't know why you're even trying to argue when your own examples support what I'm saying:

Spider man starts off as a punk kid who doesn't fully understand his powers, sure they are the same but he lacks "teh control" and sucks at using them.  The same story is mirrored thus far in the movies (remember all the trying to swing from webs until he finally succeeded).

In order to learn how to use his webs better and to develop the ability to swing from them, we see him attempt to do it until he eventually gets it right.  We don't see him beating on criminals until he levels up and gains Web Swinging 1.

I think you are arguing with yourself, for the most part.

How do we get levels in a rpg?

Experience you say, really?

What does experience mean, perchance?  Here's what dictionary.com has to say:

"Active participation in events or activities, leading to the accumulation of knowledge or skill: a lesson taught by experience; a carpenter with experience in roof repair."

It's not that the warrior was born inately with no power to use a sword, or that a wizard suddenly gains the ability to control a new incantation at level, it's that their accumlated experience allows them to better control the power that they already have (hence a warrior becomes slightly better at using swords each time he uses one to hack off his opponents head, or a wizard gains the experience controlling magic that allows him to use more advanced magic).

Look, if I buy a sword tommorrow at the Ren Festival, I'm going to look like the Star Wars kid when I try to swing it around, after the tenth person who kicks the shit out of me for being a retard, I'll be slightly better at taking a beating, after the 1000th I'll be even better yet.  My accumulated experiences have given me more ability to wield the power I already controlled.  The same thing will occur if suddenly I can shoot webs from my hands tommorrow.  The first few times I try I'm going to look like a retard, the more experience I get the better I'll be.

The entire concept of leveling in a rpg is that your accumulated experiences make you better at what you do.  The first time you use your uber earth melting powers to fight crime, you're going to suck at it.  Eventually you'll be fucking pretty good at it (unless you get killed along the way), that's the very concept of leveling, and that's the very concept of the early Marvel comics.  I'm not quite certain what you think the Squire is doing in the fantasy game to get more "powerful", but it's all about practice makes perfect, be it a Squire or a noob super hero..

Sure, I don't want another level grind either, but to say that levels are any less meaningful in a comic book game than in a fantasy game is silly.  Hell, even The Tick went through a level grind from super-hero noob to.. well he never made it past level one, but the fucker tried..

Do you think that superheros are born knowing how to use their power, or do you think they learn with experience?  Fuck even Smallville is all about Clark Kent going through the level grind..

Levels to me, based on just about every RPG up to this point, mean that you beating on mobs, or doing quests and you get xp.  When you get enough xp to reach the next level you tend to get some stat bonuses and maybe choose from some abilities regardless of whether or not there is any actual reason for you to get them.

For instance let's say Lv. 1 Spidey goes out and stops some bank heists.  Eventually he levels and becomes a little stronger and chooses (or is given) Web Swinging 1 as an ability.  Now Spidey was out there beating people over the head, and maybe webbing them to the wall or something, so how did he learn how to web swing? 

Mind you that is a problem with pretty much any level-based RPG.  The second part of my problem is this:  In fantasy, pretty much any character can end up going from the bottom, powerwise, to the top.  In a Fantasy MMO you go from whacking small animals to eventually killing some of the most powerful demons, or whatever.  In comics though, characters tend to have niches.  They each tend to have their own rogues gallery, and their power-levels generally remain consistant with some boosts here and there depending on who's writing.  You have low street-level heroes (Punisher, Daredevil, Luke Cage) upper-tier street-level (Cap, Spider-man), Gods and Cosmic level (Thor, Silver Surfer), and various characters who fluctuate or fall in-between (Dr. Strange for instance, who has gone from novice, to master, to getting a shitload of power from Mystical Sponsors, to near powerless, to going through several different forms of magic of varying power).

Punisher will never level-up to where Thor is.  Neither will Spidey for that matter.  Silver Surfer went from normal human, directly to having the power cosmic (and thus even at his start was more powerful than most heroes in the Marvel U).  Training and experience will make a hero better at what they do, but it won't make them jump to another "Tier" power-wise.  That's why I don't think leveling is the best way to go for heroes.

I think you need to basically make a different "game" for different power-levels (i.e. each Tier has it's own missions, villains, ect...), make the game skill based, and give the skills enough utility that they're useful for teams made up of characters from different Tiers.  For instance, Spidey might never be able to go toe to toe with Thanos, but he can use Web Blind, and Web Trip (which he has learned from playing around with his webbing either in combat or training), to set him up for Thor to hit.

[Der Helm]

  Fuck even Smallville is all about Clark Kent going through the level grind..

Damm you Cevik, I can't stop giggling like a school girl over that statement. Thank you very much.

On the topic of levels.

I do not think that it is the level itself most people here despise, it is the inevitable grind that accompanies them.

If you get "levels" in "web-slinging" just by doing it, so that you can unlock some new abilities (this webball thingy or some nice rope trick), it would at least make sense.

But grinding on generic_thug_01 till you "ding", so that you can start grinding on generic_bankrobber_01 or generic_thug_02, well fuck that.

(even though I am having fun with that in CoV at the moment)

[cevik]

The problem you are having is that you are unable to suspend disbelief with the current games.  It's not an issue with levels, it's an issue with the mechanics of the game.  The concept isn't that spiderman went out and bashed 10 thugs over the head and then suddenly learned to swing from webs, it's that in the process of bashing 10 thugs over the head, he tried to do things he was incapable of doing before (due to lack of proficiency in the skill, not lack of ability to do it), and eventually he becomes "proficient" in the skill, thus "gaining" that skill.

The same thing happens with my warrior, it's not that the 10th foozle he wacks suddenly gives him the ability to shield bash, he's always had the capability to swing his shield at something.  It's just that after the 10th foozle he's gotten good enough at shield bashing to do it on a regular basis.

Leveling is a new "tier" in power because you become more proficient at the things you do.  It is symbolic of the growth in power one gets with experience in battle (or in making biscuits or whatever your character does to get experience).  It's not the perfect symbol, because realistically one doesn't suddenly gain "tiers" of new skills, instead the skills should grow slowly over time like in real life.  But realistically we don't play "games" to get real life simulators, either, so it's a careful balance the developers have to make.

That there are inherent power descripencies between types of superheros is true, but is unrealistic for a game.  In the end, it will be a game.  Much like, in theory, a warrior can never be as powerful as the most mighty mage, in reality game balance must trump all and everyone deserves an equal chance..

[Velorath]

The problem you are having is that you are unable to suspend disbelief with the current games.  It's not an issue with levels, it's an issue with the mechanics of the game.  The concept isn't that spiderman went out and bashed 10 thugs over the head and then suddenly learned to swing from webs, it's that in the process of bashing 10 thugs over the head, he tried to do things he was incapable of doing before (due to lack of proficiency in the skill, not lack of ability to do it), and eventually he becomes "proficient" in the skill, thus "gaining" that skill.

That's one way of putting it.  Personally though, it's just not wanting to suspend disbelief for that kind to shit anymore, when I know Devs could come up with something better.  I don't want bashing mobs and leveling to be symbolic of my character actually growing.  We've played that game already.  It works in single player RPG's because you at least tend to have a storyline to distract you.

As far as balance goes, strange as it might sound you can have balance even with characters at different power levels as long as each character has skills which can contribute to the group.  Look at a team like the Avengers, which has lower, upper, and Godlike characters all on the same team.  Cap may not be as powerful as Thor but his Leadership helps lead the team to victory.  As long as characters can contribute to a group equally, it doesn't matter how powerful they are.

[HaemishM]

It isn't that comics aren't suited well to levels, it's that levels aren't suited well to ANYTHING.

Other than long subscriptions and grinding burnout.

But keep at your nerd slapfight. It's great when you make Triforcer seem like the sane one.

[shiznitz]

Could be worse, your nephew could be named "Silent Bob".

That's not worse. Brodie is a fucking twitnugget name.

[cevik]

But keep at your nerd slapfight. It's great when you make Triforcer seem like the sane one.

You have no room to talk.

[Signe]

I'm glad I'm don't read these things.  They seem to make people so angry!

[Azazel]

Here is the first 4 years (or so) of X-men in mmog form:

Best.Post.I've.Read.In.Quite.Awhile.

we need more of this kind of thing. seriously.