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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  World of Warcraft  |  Topic: WOW Beta Emails Sent 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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airety
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Reply #70 on: March 19, 2004, 04:26:00 PM

blah blah blah, mmorpgs suck, wow sounds great, blah blah i'm in phase 2 and will keep everyone posted
Arydon
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Reply #71 on: March 19, 2004, 04:31:17 PM

Quote from: airety
blah blah blah, mmorpgs suck, wow sounds great, blah blah i'm in phase 2 and will keep everyone posted


Finally, a real review I can relate to.
Alrindel
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Reply #72 on: March 19, 2004, 05:03:37 PM

Quote from: Riley
All the content seems very segregated, by the time you look at which quests apply to your faction, race, class - you'll see that only about 30% of the content applies to you.  This will make it very tough for them to keep up with the game at the high levels when their big selling point is the content.  The "end game" might just be rerolling as a different faction/race to go through other content.


If this is true, it could be a problem for them as it was for Mythic, who discovered to their dismay that the majority of DAOC players stuck to their home realms, and thus only ever saw 33% of the content that was in the game (and complained bitterly of the lack).
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Reply #73 on: March 19, 2004, 06:00:36 PM

Quote from: Alrindel
If this is true, it could be a problem for them as it was for Mythic, who discovered to their dismay that the majority of DAOC players stuck to their home realms, and thus only ever saw 33% of the content that was in the game (and complained bitterly of the lack).


I'd say the problem is in how DAoC is designed. I did perhaps 6-7 quests at max on a single character (and I hate them all). And I still have to see a few zones even in Albion, where I play.

In DAoC the content is widely unused. This due to design. You can add tons of new zones, dungeons and quests without adding ANYTHING to the game.

I still have to see 80% of ToA simply because I don't have a zerg to move around as I log in.

-HRose / Abalieno
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Soukyan
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Reply #74 on: March 19, 2004, 06:10:45 PM

With the fairly quick, quest based level scheme, the concern over end-game material, the worry over class skills and variation, WoW is looking to be a lot like AC2. However, they will prolong the leveling, if only to keep the catasses from ripping through the end-game content faster than they can make it to keep up. The classes will be tweaked and will have additions to them and someone will figure out either a buffbot trick or a "holy trinity" combo that will throw the game out of whack. Oh, and I see dead people, too.

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Sairon
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Reply #75 on: March 19, 2004, 06:27:11 PM

Found a pretty decent PVP FAQ, don't know how reliable it is but there's some intresting stuff in there, if it's true.

http://pub162.ezboard.com/fworldofwarcraftoldschoolpvpforumfrm9.showMessage?topicID=28.topic
Dark_MadMax
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Reply #76 on: March 19, 2004, 06:53:45 PM

Sigh... pvp seems absolutely no issue for blizzard -as in "we dont  give a f$ck" about it .  

 But the rests seems inspiring  -I have a nostalgia over AC1 ( a beatifull world with rich content) sometimes and maybe it will carry my subscr over the free month if -after all playing a stable ,quality game could be a nice break from unstable/buggy/contentless/broken MMORPGs trend :)
El Gallo
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Reply #77 on: March 19, 2004, 07:02:19 PM


This post makes me want to squeeze into my badass red jeans.
Numtini
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Reply #78 on: March 19, 2004, 07:28:45 PM

And everyone went for it... wow... honestly looks more naive than the SWG crew was. Sometimes that's not always a bad thing though.

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
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Reply #79 on: March 19, 2004, 09:02:22 PM

http://wow.warcraftstrategy.com/forum/showthread.php?s=9cfd4c107b317f6bbdcf3ae03b6157de&threadid=2917

That's a pretty good (short) write up done by a fansite moderator. It's actually the least un-biased piece I've seen so far.
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Reply #80 on: March 19, 2004, 10:10:50 PM

I've found this on my DAoC guild forum, I don't know where they took it from:

----------------------------
PvP class vs class balance:
----------------------------

There is none, whatsoever.

Some may say it's similar like in DAoC , but it seems like WoW has a lot to change in basic combat systems to even come close to the unbalanced state of DAoC now

----------------
Crowd Control:
----------------

First day of WoW beta, people already found out it's uber. Uber as in "DAoC CC in the first 3 months":

- You can chain-mezz (sleep). You can even "sleep" (mezz) an opponent "forever", he/she won't be even able to log off, outside of crashing the game manually, or pulling the modem cable out

- You can chain-fear people (not fun, heh)

- You can chain-stun people (ok, we all know what it does, no further description necessary )

- You can stack unbreakable snares on people, and kite them endlessly

- You can chain-root people

- You can chain-interrupt people - no, casters aren't so suspect to interrupt like in DAoC, but the difference isn't too big either.


No, there aren't any immunity timers, there's no Purge, there even are no diminishing returns like halving the CC time on remezzing/rerooting/restunning the mobs like in DAoC.


Hmm... Are people designing the PvP combat in new MMORPGS completely ignorant to the history of mistakes their competitors already did?

----------------
Rogues
----------------

At the moment, WoW rogues would eat DAoC Infiltrators and High RR Nightshades for lunch

It's a general consensus that they deal WAY too much damage, thus a nerf is to be expected.

People over at WoW boards are even fearing all the Infiltrators and NSs will come to WoW and roll the uber FOTM Rogues

Which will the proceed to pwn everything and anything in the first few monts, till all the whines reach a certain level, and Blizzard overnerfs them. Sounds familiar

----------------------------------------------
/Assist trains vs primary healers and casters
----------------------------------------------

Yes, WoW has /assist. And, healing types and mages (Priest, Shaman, etc) generally wear light armor.

Priest, the primary healer is the cross of DAoC Sorcerer (Cloth armor, DD spells), Healer (primary healing and mezz) and Cleric (Smite line).

Mezz is chainable (no immunity or similar) but only single target, so there's no way you can stop an /assist train from reaching your support or casters.

No, there's no collision detection.

Casters and healing types are interruptable with CC, DD spells, melee combat...

Combine this with /assist, and I guess the same problem with gank groups and /assist trains will arise in WoW too, only the healing types will go down much fasters, without insta heals and wearing cloth armor.

***

All in all, it seems WoW does not bring a lot of progress (if any) on the MMORPG PvP field. It even seems they didn't learn from all the mistakes Mythic made in the first months (or years), balancing PvP combat, classes and large(r) scale PvP tactics.

It also looks like WoW will put PvP in certain Battleground-like zones and arenas, a bit like SWG or AO (before the expansions). More duel-like, for 1-on-1, group-on-group like arena fights.


Aye, I know, I know, disclaimers:

- "It's a beta! They even limited the leveling to 30, noone has seen the high-level content! It all can change till release".

Yes. However, DAoC beta did the same. I seriously doubt there are some miraculous, brand-new combat systems awaiting players at levels beyond 30.


- "They didn't show all of the PvP areas yet!"

True. Then again, they have already stated what general kinds of PvP areas will be available in numerous interviews - PvP level-limited zones (aka, Battlegrounds in DAoC vocabulary, or maybe a bit like SWG), Arenas (SWG/AO like), and duels. That's about it.

They may come up with some secret, new, never-seen-before revolutionary PvP system, but I honestly doubt it.

***
When the DAoC combat system (styles, spells) and RvR system is compared with WoW system-to-be, it does seem like they're targeting the completely different crowd, basically trying the same thing like SWG, to attract all the people who never played a MMORPG before, and less the DAoC RvR-addict types

-HRose / Abalieno
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Disco Stu
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Reply #81 on: March 19, 2004, 10:21:40 PM

Thats amazing info Hrose espically considering NO ONE KNOWS ANYTHING ABOUT PVP. Unless your guild has a time machine and has traveled into the future in which case I stand corrected. How about you and your douche bag friends bitch about things that have been tested before you tackle the things that arn't in the game yet.
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Reply #82 on: March 19, 2004, 11:15:08 PM

Quote from: Disco Stu
Thats amazing info Hrose espically considering NO ONE KNOWS ANYTHING ABOUT PVP. Unless your guild has a time machine and has traveled into the future in which case I stand corrected. How about you and your douche bag friends bitch about things that have been tested before you tackle the things that arn't in the game yet.


You didn't get it.
They took the classes, skills and spells and tried to see how they are able to work on a PvP arena. You can already fight 1 on 1 and it's easy to have an idea of how it should go in a group battle.

It's not about the setting in which you'll go PvP, it's about how bad could perform a combat system designed around PvE applied to PvP. I don't think your skills and spells are going to work in a different way when you enter a PvP zone.

-HRose / Abalieno
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Reply #83 on: March 19, 2004, 11:26:09 PM

Quote from: HRose
I don't think your skills and spells are going to work in a different way when you enter a PvP zone.


Why not? EQ did it. Spells affected PCs differently in certain aspects.  Most games have shown you can have spells work in PVE different than in PVP (usually scaled down in magnitude to correct glaring imbalances or to slow down pvp).

Really, do you think they'll leave retarded PVP balances in indefinately? Errr... don't answer that.

-Rasix
Alrindel
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Reply #84 on: March 20, 2004, 12:44:59 AM

Quote from: El Gallo


Deleted now - what was it?  I think my favourite troll on the SWG beta boards was "PETITION TO ENABLE SAME-SEX IN-GAME MARRIAGES" - and that was before anybody had ever heard of Gavin Newsome.
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Reply #85 on: March 20, 2004, 02:40:49 AM

Tanandae:

Two very important questions I need to have answered:

1) Do you have the option to be completely bald, and

2) Is pink/fuscia an available color for the guild tabbards.

And yes, I'm actually asking. For real.

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Reply #86 on: March 20, 2004, 08:09:15 AM

One of the WoW devs said they weren't balancing PVP for 1 on 1. Its going to be balanced for teams and be like BF1942, which I suppose means you have to capture 4-5 bases in an instanced battlefield.

It doesn't mean that there won't be plenty of changes to spells and such, but I wouldn't get to concerned about how uber you are in 1 on 1 since Blizzard has indicated they don't care.
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Reply #87 on: March 20, 2004, 10:35:12 AM

Quote
One of the WoW devs said they weren't balancing PVP for 1 on 1


It's the better choice, but that will just mean more whining. PVP is either balanced for one on one or it's not balanced. Because any group vs. group encounter is always lost because the other side zerged or there was lag or they used radar or the dog at their mezzer or something. Nobody ever respects group vs. group balanced because it's hard to quantify.

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
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Reply #88 on: March 20, 2004, 11:51:03 AM

If anyone is interested, some braindead writer at  Gamespot has posted a brief, completely non-revelatory WoW preview.
Disco Stu
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Reply #89 on: March 20, 2004, 12:04:28 PM

Quote from: HRose
You didn't get it.
They took the classes, skills and spells and tried to see how they are able to work on a PvP arena. You can already fight 1 on 1 and it's easy to have an idea of how it should go in a group battle.


Comparing 1v1 balance and trying to use those results to make conclusions about group battles is beyond stupid. My cleric in DAOC could kill a fucking rabbit by himself does that mean he was forever gimped? Of course not. I'm not going to say there wont be balance problems of course there will be. Hell they couldn't even balance Diablo 2 for over a year after release. But starting to bitch about pvp balance now is jumping the gun.

As for the information released I'm not suprised. Blizzard never really pretended they were making anything other than a EQ clone. If you were expecting anything else you shouldn't be here. I just want it to be a fun EQ clone.
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Reply #90 on: March 20, 2004, 04:21:53 PM

Ugh.  Balance the classes for PvE and leave it at that.  People seem to have decided that PvP must be a major element of the game design, apparently just because they want it to be.  It isn't.  At least, the fact that they haven't really talked about PvP and that it hasn't even been tested in the Alpha/closed Beta would seem to indicate that its not a big deal to them.

People here worry about Blizzard fanbois - I'm worried about old DAoCers barging in and demanding their way with everything.

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tanandae
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Reply #91 on: March 20, 2004, 04:32:23 PM

Quote from: angry.bob
1) Do you have the option to be completely bald, and

2) Is pink/fuscia an available color for the guild tabbards.

And yes, I'm actually asking. For real.


Humans can be completely bald, I can't remember for the other races. There's both a light pink and a bright fuschia type pink for tabards. Both were used by guilds in the Horde push -- most notably the light pink for the "Carebears" guild. Yes, a heart emblem, of course.

A variation on the carebear theme, but with the fuschia color:
http://www.blizzard.com/wow/images/screens/valentines/ss02.jpg
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Reply #92 on: March 20, 2004, 04:43:39 PM

Quote from: Mesozoic
MANY POTENTIAL PAYING CUSTOMERS seem to have decided that PvP must be a major element of the game design, apparently just BECAUSE THEY WANT IT TO BE.


FIFY

I said a year ago, six months ago, and a month ago that they were focusing on getting the wrong playerbase by looking to clone EQ. They've seriously misjudged the average person excited about the game and what theiy're interested in. On board after board, people want information about PvP, to talk about PvP, and speculate about PvP. No one gives a fuck about raids. No one wants to hear about raids. The people who are going to be playing this game, in general, are not going to enjoy or involve themselves in raids.

The very absolute last thing this genre needs is another reskinned EQ clone comming out in FY2004. If people bitching and clamoring for PvP can get them to rethink the focus of the endgame, I'm all for it. And as far as balancing for RvR, it would be way easier for a two sided fight with the exact same classes available to each side than it is for a three sided fight with a billion different niche classes.

Quite honestly, I expect thet they'll have to put as much focus on PvP as they currently are on raids and other EQ-style crap or have a very unhappy playerbase with a pretty short retention period based on the number of their intended customers wanting PvP.

And thank you for answering my questions Tanandae

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Reply #93 on: March 20, 2004, 04:48:59 PM

EQ can't even balance the classes they do have in a pure PVE game, class balance doesn't exist.  Anyhow, Quite simply I'm not going to play WoW unless there's some form of PvP to look forward to as an end game.  There's others who feel the same way.  My 10 bucks is just as good as the next guys, it's up to the various game companys to appeal to me enough to give it to them.  No PvP, no appeal.  Thus far it ain't looking good.

And yah, there's a reason ex-DAOC'ers are trying to shape WoW into the game they want.  Pain in the ass item-centric TOA has been freshly burned in their memories.  Epic PVE is boring.

attention span of a gnat
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Reply #94 on: March 20, 2004, 04:55:50 PM

Quote from: angry.bob
No one gives a fuck about raids. No one wants to hear about raids. The people who are going to be playing this game, in general, are not going to enjoy or involve themselves in raids.


Let me introduce you to this gentleman, and his many, many friends.  You and I might care about PvP, and we might be seeing all the clamoring for PvP info -- but it's precisely because we ourselves are looking for PvP info.

Quote
Quite honestly, I expect thet they'll have to put as much focus on PvP as they currently are on raids and other EQ-style crap or have a very unhappy playerbase with a pretty short retention period.


I really, really hope that you're right, but I'm pretty sure that this won't happen, sadly.

Sometimes known as Isidien.
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Reply #95 on: March 20, 2004, 05:12:05 PM

Another question for you, Tanandae:
Do items decay?

This bugs me a lot. It's a part of DAoC I fervently hate. While I love how items are designed in FFXI.

-HRose / Abalieno
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Reply #96 on: March 20, 2004, 06:16:19 PM

Quote from: vukicevic
Let me introduce you to this gentleman, and his many, many friends.  You and I might care about PvP, and we might be seeing all the clamoring for PvP info -- but it's precisely because we ourselves are looking for PvP info.


Really, I’m just looking for as much info as I can, I’m not really looking for PvP info. Other than the bald/pink issue, I’m wholly indifferent to just about everything, thought the ability to solo is very important to me due to my work schedule (2 days on, 2 days off, 7:00pm to 7:00am).  There’s just a flat-out ton of people asking about, wanting, or expecting PvP. Another fairly common sentiment is the lack of excitement about grinding. It’s not that I’m looking for material about it, it’s that there’s so much of it you can’t avoid it. Uber-guild crap like raids on the other hand, is limited pretty much to uber-guild boards. I’m not saying that guilds like FoH aren’t involved, but lets face it – they’re statisticly insignificant and don’t fall anywhere in the neighborhood of an average player. I mean, read the board – they’ve got b*ttf*ckers there saying that in order to level past 40 it should take at least a month per level and require large groups and membership in a big guild in order to make leveling an “accomplishment” for a “skilled” player. Can they cater to that attitude? Sure. Can they cater to that attitude and keep players? Absolutely not. People don’t want that shit anymore. EQ players don’t even seem to want that anymore. The genre isn’t new new and interesting enough anymore, and there are too many alternatives for people to stay and put up with crap they find frustrating, pointless, or boring. The attitudes and desires of players like FoH members/fanbois are so far from the main that it would be disastrous for Blizzard to cater to them. I have a pretty strong feeling that the next crop of grind-games is going to in for a shock and that most players simply aren’t going to be satisfied with grinding to level in order to go on “raids”.

Blizzard is very, very good at making fun games that sell huge numbers of units. From all accounts, they've been responsive to player feedback. If out of every 100 people, 60 are saying the game is fun but they want more PvP, 35 aren't saying a word, and 5 are saying that leveling is too easy and you should need 30 people to kill a single monster after level 40, who do you think is ultimately going to get listenened too?

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Reply #97 on: March 20, 2004, 06:20:25 PM

Quote
Blizzard never really pretended they were making anything other than a EQ clone. If you were expecting anything else you shouldn't be here. I just want it to be a fun EQ clone.


What game are you talking about?  Aside from saying they'll have raids, and the fact that they have a race/class system, there seems to be very little in common to EQ iteself, or it's original vision.

Relatively fast leveling, ac2-ish quest system, zoneless world, compass, map, no singular specific purpose for each class, some importance placed on pvp, and so on and so on.

It might be a generic mmorpg, but it's not trying to be an eq clone.
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Reply #98 on: March 20, 2004, 06:25:54 PM

Quote from: XMackenzie
EQ can't even balance the classes they do have in a pure PVE game, class balance doesn't exist.  Anyhow, Quite simply I'm not going to play WoW unless there's some form of PvP to look forward to as an end game.  There's others who feel the same way.  My 10 bucks is just as good as the next guys, it's up to the various game companys to appeal to me enough to give it to them.  No PvP, no appeal.  Thus far it ain't looking good.

And yah, there's a reason ex-DAOC'ers are trying to shape WoW into the game they want.  Pain in the ass item-centric TOA has been freshly burned in their memories.  Epic PVE is boring.


The only reason I hope more WT.O people make the beta is to cry and whine about PvP and it's appeal to more than just us 'hardcore' people.  And by cry and whine I mean present in an intelligent and organized manner. For some reason (naiveté), I feel that if an organized post made it into the beta forums, we might find a way into someone's mind in Blizzard.

I have heard and also assume that PvP will be almost identical to the 'Defense of the Ancients" (DotA) or "Tides of Blood" custom maps designed for Warcraft 3 and The Frozen Throne. Basically it's you and your party and maybe some other people spawning in your 'town'.  A bunch of NPC's spawn and you fight your way up to the opposing town and try and siege it.  If you happen to overcome the defenders and defending NPC's you get rewarded w/ more than just experience for killing NPC's.

This is just how I've imagined it.

If you have Warcraft 3 still sitting in a jewel case somewhere, fire it up and give these custom maps a go.  They're very well done and the balancing on Tides of Blood is excellent. ToB at least has quite a following www.tidesofblood.com
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Reply #99 on: March 20, 2004, 07:02:48 PM

Quote from: angry.bob
Quote from: Mesozoic
MANY POTENTIAL PAYING CUSTOMERS seem to have decided that PvP must be a major element of the game design, apparently just BECAUSE THEY WANT IT TO BE.


FIFY


Many?  What does that mean?  12?  A million?  Now would be the time to unleash your ravenous PvP hordes upon the game design people at Blizzard, BTW.    

Are there suddenly not enough PvEers out there to make a successful MMOG?  Or did you pick WoW out of a hat as the game upon which to issue demands?

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angry.bob
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Reply #100 on: March 20, 2004, 07:53:40 PM

Quote from: Mesozoic
Many?  What does that mean?  12?  A million?
   

In this case it’s used in place of “a fairly clear majority”. I’m not even going to try to pull a number out of my ass or go through boards and tally up –pro,–anti, and –indifferent posts to give you an exact number. The simple gift of vision and the ability to read should allow you to go to fair sampling of boards and get a rough, average breakdown for yourself. So far, people want PvP. The two main subjects are 1) What’s the leveling rate like, and 2) PvP. It’s not hard to understand why given the company releasing the game, the source material, and even the division between the Alliance and The Horde.

As far as unleashing "ravenous hordes", that's about what's happening. Except they're not ravenous, they're simply and clearly making their desires known. But I suspect you've already seen that considering how much you're rubbing your ouchy vagina over the subject.

Quote from: Mesozoic
Are there suddenly not enough PvEers out there to make a successful MMOG?  Or did you pick WoW out of a hat as the game upon which to issue demands?


For about the nine-millionth last time, PvP and PvE are not mutually exclusive, any more than a game needs to force grouping to the point of making casual or solo players unable to play it. If either of those is the case in a game, it’s flat-out because of poor, lazy design and the developers have failed as game creators. Nobody is frothing at the mouth and demanding open, unlimited PvP or the ability to gank n00bs in town. If you don't want to PvP, don't go to the PvP areas. There you go. You get to PvE as much as you want, and the people who want to PvP can hang out in the PvP areas as much as they want. Everyone gets what they wants and no one is denied their prefered playstyle. People appear to want a good RvR system and given the way they’ve decided to separate the two factions it wouldn’t be terribly hard to implement. Even the way they’re doing the classes ensures balancing on that front.

You can be as angry and pissy as you want to be about it, but it’s not going to change the fact that the people interested in playing WoW for the most part want a good PvP system to be a larger part of the game, and with the exception of eXtreme catass losers they don’t give a f*ck about l33t uber raids. Deal with it or not, but the game will change because it’s what their customers seem to want. Ignoring what people trying to give you money want is not the way to get that money, and Blizzard is a big enough and professional enough company to realize that.

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Reply #101 on: March 20, 2004, 08:06:43 PM

I'll never understand PvP advocates. Not that I can't understand why some people enjoy PvP, for I enjoy it myself, but the wringing of hands and righteous rants of "Why won't someone think of the PvPers?" makes no sense to me. If you want to PvP you can play Shadowbane, Planetside, DAoC, AO, SW:G, or on Darktide, Felluca, or one of the Zeks. The claim that the market is nothing but raid centered EQ clones and that PvPers are ignored is simply manifestly false.

Perhaps you think all of the aforementioned games suck. Perhaps that is because they all have one thing in common. Perhaps you can figure out what it is. And perhaps Blizzard already has.
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Reply #102 on: March 20, 2004, 08:40:26 PM

Quote from: Wukong
If you want to PvP you can play Shadowbane, Planetside, DAoC, AO, SW:G, or on Darktide, Felluca, or one of the Zeks.


And if you want to play exclusively PvE you can play DAoC as it is after ToA, AO in 90% of the zones, SWG in 99% of the “content”, Tramell, every AC server but Darktide, and every EQ server but the Zeks, or any of the PvE centered games about to be released. Saying that a person wants PvP they should go play on one server of a five year old game is simply a bad argument. Why not take it a step further and say “If you want to fight people go play Warcraft 3, f#g!”. Oh, wait…

Quote from: Wukong
The claim that the market is nothing but raid centered EQ clones and that PvPers are ignored is simply manifestly false.


When did anyone here make that argument? Though the claim that market is nothing but raid centered EQ clones and that PvPers are marginalized is manifestly true. The one mainstream RvR game there was added “raid” content with ToA and for all purposes wrecked their unique draw doing it. Eh to Shadowbane and Planetside isn’t really a valid example of the genre.

Quote from: Wukong
Perhaps you think all of the aforementioned games suck. Perhaps that is because they all have one thing in common. Perhaps you can figure out what it is. And perhaps Blizzard already has.


So in the first part of your post you say that it’s manifestly false the market is dominated by grind-happy raidfests and  PvP is “ignored”, and then you try to strengthen your position by pointing out that the largest common denominator of these games is that they’re grind-happy raidfests with marginalized PvP, and that Blizzard’s realized it and pandering to it. The thing is though, when it comes to the people interested in WoW, more people are interested in PvP than aren’t and less people seem to want to raid than do. So you tell me, what’s that say about what direction the game will evolve to. There simply is not enough people wanting to pointlessy catass for the three nearly identical games coming out, and Blizzard has “ravenous hordes” of pro-PvP people wanting to play a game with good PvP and no interest in raids. What do you think they’re going to do? Tell the vocal (apparent) majority of potential customers to pound salt and raid whether they like it or not, especially when most of the balance issues involved in RvR seem to be worked out already with core game design?

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
XMackenzie
Terracotta Army
Posts: 44


Reply #103 on: March 20, 2004, 08:45:08 PM

Quote from: Wukong
I'll never understand PvP advocates. Not that I can't understand why some people enjoy PvP, for I enjoy it myself, but the wringing of hands and righteous rants of "Why won't someone think of the PvPers?" makes no sense to me. If you want to PvP you can play Shadowbane, Planetside, DAoC, AO, SW:G, or on Darktide, Felluca, or one of the Zeks. The claim that the market is nothing but raid centered EQ clones and that PvPers are ignored is simply manifestly false.

Perhaps you think all of the aforementioned games suck. Perhaps that is because they all have one thing in common. Perhaps you can figure out what it is. And perhaps Blizzard already has.

I'll give my rundown on your list:

Shadowbane = Technically crap, unplayable.  Let me add that point and click movement is ass too.
Planetside = FPS, guns and robots, etc....
DAoC = Best of the bunch in my view, playing right now, but ToA has really borked RvR.  Mordred still works okay, although relic / porting situations need serious tweaking from the vanilla servers there.
AO & SW:G = Futuristic crap, I like my sword and sorcery.
AC = never played, but KoC & Blood & Gear sort of made it & make it unappealing.
Felluca = was good, most recently AoS / insurance screwed it.  PBD's and all that fast cast junk even mucked up Siege.
Zeks = Never played EQ, no desire to.  
Lineage II = Stupid flagging system, levelling grind both character and guildwise to participate in PvP end-game. - I consider this one a write-off.

The PvE vs PvP holy grail debates are sorta pointless. I like PvP and wish that it was done better, or simply returned to the niche periods I actually enjoyed in either UO or DAOC above.  The other factor is that believe it or not PvP folks have social circles too.  A lot of their old buddies from old games are all excited about game "Next Best Thing".  The shiny effects them too and it's fun to be able to play along with a large vibrant community.  The older games featuring PVP are dead not so much becuase OMG PvP sucks, it's because newer games have come out and the old games have also increased their landmass so actually finding people to get it on with is harder.  Don't read the stupid sheep and wolves thing in here.  I actually do like an even, or outnumbered fight, and want to play in a world that's not barren and devoid of life (Read that as opportunties for interaction, not ganking targets.)

As far as the "why project these dirty PvP thoughts on to WoW?"  Well, for me it's a highly individual thing.  I played along with Shadowclan for a few years, maybe you've heard of them, maybe not.  I'm not trying to do a Syndicate / FOH / UDL / Afterlife namedrop here, just trying to emphasis why I am so hung up on PvP in WoW.  Anyways, Shadowclan roleplayed Orcs in UO.  We put on orc helms, and defended the Yew Orc fort.  It was fun, there was PvP, there was a social community, it was great.  Now, along comes WoW.  Arguably half of the UO Shadowclan orc culture came from Warcraft roots, the other half (3/4?) Tolkien fiction.  Anyways here finally is an opportunity to actually "BE" orcs as player characters.  The only previous game I can think of was Drasnik (Crappy poorly produced UO-Clone).  Darkfall is promising orc PC's, but their doing their own engine, and the last PvP centric, didn't have a game to their credit devs gave us Crap-bane, so not much hope that'll do anything.  Anyhow, the option to "BE" an orc is here and I want to roleplay a territorial little orc defending his fort / hovel / whatever alongside of 200 of my closest friends.  Personally, I actually want a Free for all PvP server so we can actually kill nim-wit orc PC's that are part of the horde team instead of having to put up with trash talkers hiding behind a flag / invulnerability system / PVP switch.   DAOC's lockstep realm system works well enough for causual meta-plot oriented PvP, but guild level PvP is much more rewarding.

attention span of a gnat
Jacob0883
Terracotta Army
Posts: 142


Reply #104 on: March 20, 2004, 08:58:08 PM

Shadowclan orcs, I also played on catskills.  My guild, NOB, used to go and fight with you guys all the time.  That was a lot of fun(Best fun I ever had actually).  Of course, when the antiPVP patch, came out it really ruined it for the orcs.  I agree though, PVP has its place in every game and it should be done and used correctly.  To many games are just messing it up nowdays though.
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