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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  MMOG Discussion  |  Topic: What really happened to Horizons 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: What really happened to Horizons  (Read 8648 times)
Virtra
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on: May 12, 2004, 07:35:34 PM

Anyone else here stumble upon Horizons in 2001 and think it had a great concept?  And then the info on the game seemed to trickle down to nothing?  And then the new site came up and you were the WTF, what kind of monkey developed this?  Well... this article might answer some of your questions.

http://www.gamemethod.com/archive/394.php

(Yeah, I know I'm linking to gamemethod.  But if you read the whole article you will be glad you did... although you might lose more faith in the MMO market...)
Signe
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Reply #1 on: May 12, 2004, 09:05:25 PM

uh-oh.  I'll sit back now and watch schild's head explode.  I think Bowman is still on the top of his hit list.

I've seen most of this quite some time ago.  David Allen has been very vocal about the whole mess.  In fact, he's been so hostile at times that many people have written his facts off as the ramblings of a bitter man.  
I know from an acquaintance who was a witness at the time,  that most of what he says is actually true... well, at least I believe my source.  Allen's ideas for Horizons were extremely ambitious and I have my doubts that they would have even been completely possible... but nearly anything would have been better than the dog they launched.

I suspect that in the aftermath of this fiasco, AE decided to cut out much of Hz and release the game for another reason.  As a showcase for their Evolution engine.  Once it takes off, (if), they'll dump the game into the lap of the first punter through the door with a tenner in his pocket, if anyone will have it.  We had discussions about it all on WTO a while back and I doubt anyone here is surprised that Hz is a failure.  The clever bits left in the game at release are heavily over-shadowed by a lack of any excitement, whatsoever.

I would not be surprised if there is an announcement in the near future that Bowman has left AE and moved on to another project.  His work there is done.  I think his role was to cut, not to add, anyway.  I wonder if he really has any association with the game at all, other than in name, at this point.  The fact that a large part of the Horizon staff was sacked after release is an indication, to me, that this game was never intended to be a keeper for the company.  This is one big name game that might actually go under.

Of course, I could be wrong and it's just my penchant for conspiracy theories that's coming to surface.

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
Tebonas
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Reply #2 on: May 12, 2004, 11:21:15 PM

Well it works in context. People like Allen often lack understanding or the patience for the business side of a business, its too mundane for them and they don't care for such annoying details. They usually have a partner who manages that side, caring only insofar as their own work or vision is concerned. If their partner wants to screw them, they are usually screwed for good.

Wozniak and Garriot are two such people that come to my mind at the top of my head. It always seemed Jobs was the driving business force of the Apple Couple, and Garriot, well, the way they raped the Ultima Series with Super Ultima Brothers (VIII) and Tomb Raider without Boobs (IX) indicates to me he wasn't at the helm of his own company anymore when these atrocities were published.
Johny Cee
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Reply #3 on: May 13, 2004, 08:12:19 AM

The grammar,  spelling,  and ignorance in that article nearly made my eyes bleed.  

Even if I accept everything described by Allen as truth,  how exactly does this redeem his reputation?  He hired a swift-talking seedy gentlemen of dubious work history and gave him a 6 figure salary and 20% ownership in his company all because they got talking about Demise.  Great.

Said flim-flam artist than proceeded to indulge in politicking and nepotism,  while stirring up problems and delays,  and committing minor frauds.

I'm inferring from the article that the bulk of the start-up funds came from the investors.  Is it any wonder that people who gave this guy $5 or $6 MILLION became extremely nervous of,  and finally ousted,  the guy who was supposed to be running the organization after delays, blown budgets,  and general internal shenanigans?


In matters of law or large amounts of money,  ignorance is NEVER an acceptable defense for error.  Allen's second call after his lawyer to incorporate should have been to a Public Accountant or Management Consultant firm,  to get the business set up,  to hire a management team,  and to get at least rudimentary safeguards and internal controls in place.

Corrections from the article's information:

Common vs. Preferred Stock -

Preferred Stock ALMOST NEVER confers voting rights.  Preferred Stock generally entitles the owner to a set dividend on earnings and a priority over common stockholders in liquidation procedures.  The Preferred dividend DOES NOT HAVE TO BE PAID every year.  A corp can simply not pay any dividends,  in which case the preferred stockholders amount of dividend would carry over to the next years.  In general,  very few corps use preferred stock anymore,  because corporate bonds do the same thing and are more advantageous to both issurer and buyer.

Common stock confers voting privileges.  I don't follow how Allen's stock was supposedly watered down to the point where he owned a minority position.  It makes no sense,  so I have no comment on it.
HaemishM
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Reply #4 on: May 13, 2004, 09:57:16 AM

David Allen is an egomaniac, much like HE WHO SHALL NOT BE NAMED. While I don't doubt some of the things in the article were true, I also do not doubt that the original Horizons design could not have been made, especially not for some piddling $6 million investment. The game industry is better off without DA.

Of course, we'd also be better off without the released Horizons product, but I'm sure natural market selection will take care of that in the next year.

Signe
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Reply #5 on: May 13, 2004, 10:16:48 AM

I am surprised that Allen and Bowman didn't turn out to be better friends.  They seem to share many of the same characteristics, in my opinion.  None of them good.

I once asked Bowman a specific question regarding Horizons and Allens work on the game and was, myself, subjected to his egotistical arrogance.  I also found him to be severely lacking in any sort of even remotely technical knowledge... though what he didn't know, he would attempt to make up.  Sometimes his staff would pop into the chat and correct him.  

Reading much of what David Allen has posted in the past, it's hard for me to see him as anything but hostile and angry... even now, all these years later.  I have little interest in his new projects, at this point, and I'm doubtful that they'll be worth a look later... though he can be clever so I could be wrong.

As for Horizons today, all I can say about it is:

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
Tebonas
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Reply #6 on: May 13, 2004, 10:56:13 PM

Those are characteristics that make people incompatible with one another, you don't share with a fellow egoist. Thats the whole point of egoism! And when you are arrogant you think you are right, another one thinking he is right doesn't really soothe you! :)

The real question about David Allen is was he hostile and angry before all of this happened? You can't judge him by his bitterness after Horizons was taken away from him, almost everybody would be hostile and angry in that situation.

Creative people often need to be reigned in to stop their visions rampaging over what would be doable. Nobody remembers Richard Garriots "Ultima X will be virtual reality"?
Signe
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Reply #7 on: May 14, 2004, 06:54:24 AM

Yes, I don't think it's completely fair to Judge DA considering what happened... but that does not alter the fact that many people dismiss him based on his hostility.  He claims that he's not done much concerning lawsuits in regards to AE because they're basically broke.  He wants to concentrate on putting out something from his new company, Pharaoh Productions.  Considering how much interest there seems to be in this, he may have well called it Pariah Productions.  

He received a modicum of interest and respect when he was working on Horizons... though, eventually, much of that interest turned negative with shouts of, "Vapourware!"  He is unsuccessful at using Demise as an example of his talent because, really... what was that?  He seems to be  the most well known for AE and his early work on Horizons and as the man who got shafted by David Bowman.  Perhaps if he DID sue Bowman and/or AE, and proved his case to be valid, people would regard him in a different light.  All he really does is whinge about it all.  A lot.

If what my friend told me is true, Bowman was pretty well disliked even before the incident.  After the whole shmeer, Bowman was actually hated by a good portion of his staff and, at best, tolerated by others.  Horizons became a 'job', it seems, and not an exciting project, by then.  Considering how long people worked on it, I rather think it stopped being exciting well before Bowman came into the picture.  Of course, this is probably true of a lot of games in the making.

Anyway, I do hope DA is successful in his new projects, though I'm rather doubtful he will be, if only so he can shove it in Bowman's face.  The fact that Horizons is failing so miserably may go some way in making him feel better, but it will do little for his CV.

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
Alrindel
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Reply #8 on: May 14, 2004, 07:01:17 AM

Quote from: Signe
He wants to concentrate on putting out something from his new company, Pharaoh Productions... I do hope DA is successful in his new projects, though I'm rather doubtful he will be, if only so he can shove it in Bowman's face.

Uh, I thought the whole point of this was that he quit forever and Pharaoh Productions would never release another product.
Signe
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Reply #9 on: May 14, 2004, 08:42:24 AM

Err... yes.  I am obviously living in the past.  I will now retire to the living room with a cup of coffee... I am interested in seeing how the troops in the Falklands are faring.

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schild
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Reply #10 on: May 14, 2004, 08:46:41 AM

My head is not going to explode for either one of these arrogant jackasses. I've known this story for quite a while because shortly after leaving Horizons beta boards, I went over to Pharaoh and trolled there. Almost all of this shit was posted by David Allen or one of his cohorts - you just had to dig and splice together a number of differnet posts. Pharaoh was nowhere near making anything even remotely tangible and as far as I know they had zero funding. Fuck the both of them, neither one should be able to ever touch a gaming company again. (This obviously applies to bowman, someone just needs to point out to him Horizons will NEVER cross over into the green).
Paelos
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Reply #11 on: May 14, 2004, 10:45:31 AM

After reading both their respective rants and changes to the game, I can honestly say that they both failed miserably as leaders in the project. DA had a vision for a good game, but he lacked the ability to instill that vision in others or even be able to explain it to the people who mattered. So he was booted. Then Bowman comes in and directs the MMOG tour de force we have today. Soon, the wallet voting will put Horizons where it belongs in the annals of gaming history, the trash bin.

And there will be much rejoicing.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Signe
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Reply #12 on: May 14, 2004, 11:22:18 AM

Quote from: schild
My head is not going to explode for either one of these arrogant jackasses.


Well, your head used to explode.  It's what endeared me to you in the first place.

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
Arnold
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Reply #13 on: May 17, 2004, 04:24:21 PM

Quote from: Virtra
Anyone else here stumble upon Horizons in 2001 and think it had a great concept?  And then the info on the game seemed to trickle down to nothing?  And then the new site came up and you were the WTF, what kind of monkey developed this?  Well... this article might answer some of your questions.

http://www.gamemethod.com/archive/394.php

(Yeah, I know I'm linking to gamemethod.  But if you read the whole article you will be glad you did... although you might lose more faith in the MMO market...)


I thought Horizon's had a shitty concept.  When I read the crap about the developer telling the players that he would throw in everything, AND the kitchen sink, I knew it was a pipe dream.  They were just Red Dragon Software with some funding.
Alluvian
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Reply #14 on: May 18, 2004, 12:09:24 PM

There are two ideas that were in early Horizons that I liked.

1)  The racial hatred pvp system.  I don't know if it would ever work in reality though because of mixed groups.  Not sure how fun it would be to have the demon in the party getting attacked by angels as the others could do nothing to help.  One of the nifty things was that the racial hatreds would not be static.  Treaties would be signed and new wars would break out, etc...  I have always liked racewar type systems.

2)  They had talked about the dieties being more actively involved in the lives of their followers.  To the point where the death penalty was different depending on your faction with the gods.  Again, nice concept in my opinion.

Put these in some other game with someone who can get a non-shit product out the door.
Venkman
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Reply #15 on: May 22, 2004, 05:50:59 PM

The only part I find sad is that DA was beaten down by The Man. Yea, we all know the same as he in hindsight. In fact, every single big project that involves more than two people actually carries the same risk. Egos suck, especially when they're ignorant.
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