Star Wars (Do you really think its that deep?)

[Morfiend]

I followed this link from Slashdot, and the author really attempts to discet the Star Wars series, and lucas' intent with the movies.

After reading it, my personal opinion is "bullshit". I dont think Lucas really had all this planned out the way he did. Like C3P0 being designed by Anakin to begin with, or Jar-Jar being planned on making the vote to bring down the republic. Basically, I dont feel Lucas had that all planned out. It didnt fit quite right for me, and I think he just added those story parts when he got around to it. I dont feel that he ad it all planned out as the battle between Chance and Destiny, or Chaos and Order (which it wasnt), maybe Release and controll is a better term.

Anyway, I was wondering how you guys felt. Not abour Lucas, casue I think most of us feel the same way about him (cockmunch). But do you guys think he had all the little plot elements planned for like the article tries to show, or do you think he just kind of winged it and said "Oh I know, lets have Jar-Jar make the vote".

[Cheddar]

Yes, I believe he did.  Did it come out as well as it was in his head?  No.

[HaemishM]

He had a few things planned out.

Darth Vader would be Anakin. Obi-Won would be his mentor. Vader got burned in a final volcanic battle with Obi-Won and had two children by the dead Amidala.

Everything else? Pulled directly from his bulbous, furry ass.

[Morfiend]

He had a few things planned out.

Darth Vader would be Anakin. Obi-Won would be his mentor. Vader got burned in a final volcanic battle with Obi-Won and had two children by the dead Amidala.

Everything else? Pulled directly from his bulbous, furry ass.

Yeah, I agree he had the big plot twists planned out, but Im talking about the little stuff that the author of the article hit on. Like it was planned that in EP1 the jedi HAD to meet Jar-Jar so that Jar-Jar would eventually make the vote to bring down the republic. Stuff like that. I think he pulled it out of his ass also.

[HaemishM]

Ok, so I read the article.

Wow, what a bunch of art fag horseshit. The stunningly bad coincidences that inform the entire plot of the prequels aren't deliberate, they are lazy storytelling.

[Pococurante]

Wow, what a bunch of art fag horseshit. The stunningly bad coincidences that inform the entire plot of the prequels aren't deliberate, they are lazy storytelling.

Or if you're Robert Jordan, meat & potatoes.

[Flood]

No.  Just, no.


I put Lucas in the same broad category as Dean Koontz.  They write at a 10th grade level of complexity, with the main consideration in writing the "plots" being how well  said "plot" can be packaged and marketted.


Can Lucas write an entertaining story?  Sure.

Does Star Wars = Dune and Lucas = Frank Herbert?  Hell fucking no.


Anyone who thinks that George Lucas is "deep" needs to expand their reading habits.  Mouth breathers.
 

[koboshi]

The simple answer is that much as Dan Brown is nothing without Umberto Eco, George Lucas is nothing without Joseph Campbell.

[Shockeye]

George Lucas is nothing without Joseph Campbell.

You give George too much credit. He Gumped his way into any kind of association with Campbell.

[sarius]

The fact that he hired and actually pays Julio Torres a salary proves incompetence AFAIC.

[stray]

The fact that he hired and actually pays Julio Torres a salary proves incompetence AFAIC.

Who? What?

Is this about the SWG update or something? Why?

[Margalis]

"The greatest postmodern art film ever."

That article is a great example of how not to write serious analysis. Although that style of writing a lot to say a little is very popular. It's been said that the truly brilliant take something complex and make it appear simple and obvious. Unfortunately those less bright take simple ideas and dress them up to look important.

"Most significantly, we start to notice that the films are an elaborate meditation on the dialectic between chance and order. They all depend upon absurd coincidence to propel the story forward."

Translation: The movies are written lazily - but on purpose!

Please. This is a good example of how English departments are becoming jokes. There was a time not too long ago when English departments were full of bright people making precise literary criticisms. Now they full of post-modernist bullshit artists purposely obfuscating their texts because they have nothing insightful to say.

[Merusk]

Wow, what a load of shit.  That was worse than some of the High School Senior thesis papers my friends wrote, and the man is a professor.

Like Haemish said, Lucas had a few things he had to work around, but not the intricate web the prof. is trying to portray.  Palpy as Senator to Emperor was laid-out previously,(by other authors, no less) Anakin as Vader was established in the original trilogy.  The lava fight wasn't Lucas' planning, but came from Anderson's novelization of Jedi back in '84. Luke and Leia born in secret and separated, the Jedi elimination, and Yoda and Obi-Wan's exile.  That's what had to be worked-around.

The rest came up as they were writing the movies.  Qui-Gon wasn't even in any of the scripts until the last 2 revisions, and Anakin was older in one of the early scripts. If I remember correctly from things I read, it was also originally discussed that C3-PO and R2 wouldn't be in the movies since it made no sense.  Jar-Jar was given 'importance' as a justification after all the outrage from EP1 (Lucas, just prior to filming EP2 said something about it.)

Hell, there weren't even 'prequels' in concept until a long time after Star Wars itself was filmed. Things I remember reading as a kid in the early 80's said that it was "episode 4" as a kind of joke and homage to the Gordan Serials. They had a sequel in the form of Empire and wanted to drop a number on it.  So since the script of Star Wars that was filmed was the 4th revision, they started from there.  (From (faulty) memory, The first was all about the droids, the second had Han as Luke & Leia's father and wookies were some kind of cat-men who kidnapped Leia, and the third was  similar to the actual movie, but Luke & Leia's positions were reversed in addition to a few other changes.)

The whole of Star Wars is a coincidnce of galactic proportions.  You can call it 'the will of the Force' all you want, but it's really just a huge plot device.

[Llava]

I wish I could find this essay I'd read several years ago.  It was about Marilyn Manson's lyrics, and his albums from Portrait to Mechanical Animals, and the literally dozens of connections between them all.  I came away from reading it thinking "Either Marilyn Manson is a fucking GENIUS, or this guy is reading way too much into this all."

I really think the guy was reading too much into it.  Manson's not an idiot, sure, but he's not THAT smart.  (Though the guy did do a really good job of breaking down the story of Antichrist Superstar, and I think he was dead on there.)

[stray]

/stabs eye

GAH!

At first it didn't effect me, but now I see that we don't need another Star Wars thread.

Lets talk about Maureen Dowd instead.

[Llava]

Don't look at me.  I already tried to derail.  I liked where that Manson thread in Useless News was headed, thought we'd give that one a shot.

[schild]

The fact that he hired and actually pays Julio Torres a salary proves incompetence AFAIC.

I probably spent about 3-4 hours with Julio over the last 2 days, and I'll just say this. You need to get off the high horse, pronto. I'm no SW:G fanboi, I told them they were "Trying to do the right thing, and that was good." In an industry where nothing changes we, as players, should be so lucky that a company will spend this much money on a core change. Stop being a dick.

[Triforcer]

Ah, JarJar...if there is any justice in the SWG universe, the supposed TV show in the works (covering period between 3-4) will open with Jarjar getting intimately acquainted with an analprobedroid while Palpatine capers madly in the background.  But they'll probably make him a brave resistance fighter or something.

[stray]

The fact that he hired and actually pays Julio Torres a salary proves incompetence AFAIC.

I probably spent about 3-4 hours with Julio over the last 2 days, and I'll just say this. You need to get off the high horse, pronto. I'm no SW:G fanboi, I told them they were "Trying to do the right thing, and that was good." In an industry where nothing changes we, as players, should be so lucky that a company will spend this much money on a core change. Stop being a dick.

Is he a dick for saying shit about Julio, or because he brought the point over here?

[edit] Actually, it must be the first. If not, then that'd make me and Llava dicks too.  :-D

[Llava]

Ah, JarJar...if there is any justice in the SWG universe, the supposed TV show in the works (covering period between 3-4) will open with Jarjar getting intimately acquainted with an analprobedroid while Palpatine capers madly in the background.  But they'll probably make him a brave resistance fighter or something.

I can tell you exactly what Jar Jar will be doing.

[schild]

Is he a dick for saying shit about Julio, or because he brought the point over here?

Both. There's something to be said about what these people say in real life and what they are ALLOWED to say on the internet. At the lowest level, I've learned something over the last week:

Players Know Nothing. Nothing. Millions of gibbering retards. Keke.

Oh, and my opinion on the actual thread - Star Wars isn't that deep. And was probably ghost written by 50 script fixers. Lucas is terrible at writing. Terrible.

[stray]

Is he a dick for saying shit about Julio, or because he brought the point over here?

Both. There's something to be said about what these people say in real life and what they are ALLOWED to say on the internet. At the lowest level, I've learned something over the last week:

Players Know Nothing. Nothing. Millions of gibbering retards. Keke.

Who did you meet, man? Who let you down? Who brought this point home? C'mon, tell us!

[edit] I'll just say that I've felt the same way about certain things that I do in some "professional" capacity (for lack of a better word), when I see outsiders (for lack of another better word) criticise something they know little about.

Then again, sometimes those who are actually "doing" something know very little as well (this is a thread about George Lucas after all....).

[edit] Coming from you though (and I don't presume to "who" or "what" exactly you are, other than your personality on these boards), this is pretty disturbing.

[Ironwood]

Why are we doing this again ?

Can we not just agree never to talk about the Star Wars films ever again ?  Please ?

[sarius]

Is he a dick for saying shit about Julio, or because he brought the point over here?

Both. There's something to be said about what these people say in real life and what they are ALLOWED to say on the internet. At the lowest level, I've learned something over the last week:

Players Know Nothing. Nothing. Millions of gibbering retards. Keke.

Oh, and my opinion on the actual thread - Star Wars isn't that deep. And was probably ghost written by 50 script fixers. Lucas is terrible at writing. Terrible.

Gosh, worry about what people are allowed to say on the Internet.  Coming from this board that's freaking hillarious.

As for Lucas, I only wish he had picked literally anyone instead of Hayden Christensen to lead the last two offerings.  Watching the production was literally akin to Beavis (Hayden) discussing life with C.S. Lewis.

[Sky]

One the VHS set that came out in the 90s, he said he had written up the entire epic, then realized there was too much to film, and broke out what he felt was the most interesting chapter. Then he had to cut that back because it was too ambitious and he didn't have the money to do stuff like the big hoth battle or film the wookie planet (which became endor). He picked the middle chapters for the conflict.

So he had a decently fleshed out 'backstory' in place when he filmed Ep 4. And he's got a decently fleshed out final trilogy if he wants to make it.

At least, that's how the story went around '95 or so, and he also said he wasn't interested in making the rest of it (including the 'prequel').

Is it true? Who knows, who cares. They're fun movies. I, too, wish casting had been better for 1-3. Blew what could have been some pretty great movies, but then, we know a lot of it was off-the-cuff. Listen to the commentary and you'll wish you hadn't. When I learned the whole flying r2 in the droid factory was put in because the film was getting bogged down in plot...wow.

[HaemishM]

When I learned the whole flying r2 in the droid factory was put in because the film was getting bogged down in plot...wow.

I boggle. What plot? Ep2 had about as much plot as a Bazooka Joe wrapper.

[schild]

Gosh, worry about what people are allowed to say on the Internet.  Coming from this board that's freaking hillarious.

I was talking about what developers are allowed to say according to their PR handlers on the internet, numbnuts.

[Soln]

you only need to listen to Lucas own comments in the  documentary that made it to the DVD collection of the first 3 to know that it was all pretty sketchy.  They even show his original drafts.  Christ, there's even some footage of him in pre-production for Episode3 and he walks in with the completed draft and says "it's done... of course, there's a lot of "THEY FIGHT" in there, but..."   meaning, filler. 


I was thinking about this the other day actually, mad at myself for the time I took in SWG and reading all that EU stuff and it came to me how thin the movies are.  Everything else has been added by fans wanting more content.  It's like people who make spoiler sites for MMO's -- they add to the product by their own efforts

[Bunk]

Has there ever been another movie franchise where more was made from tiny bit characters that had 2 second appearances? Boba Fett being the ultimate example, but there are fleshed out stories for nearly every person that appeared in the movies. Note - fleshed out by someone other than Lucas.

[Ironwood]

And often glaringly contradictory.

[Roac]

When I learned the whole flying r2 in the droid factory was put in because the film was getting bogged down in plot...wow.

I boggle. What plot? Ep2 had about as much plot as a Bazooka Joe wrapper.

That's because Lucas confuses trash with plot.

What SW is, is a fantastic framework for sci-fi storytelling, and a good blend of fantasy and sci-fi (laser swords, w00t!).  Lots of pretty flashy stuff to get your attention.  It's very good at being entertaining.  It's not so good at being smart.  No, it's terrible at pretending to be smart, to the point that there were more IQ points burned in that review of SW than Lucas put into 6 movies.

[AOFanboi]

Well that didn't stop poseurs from reading tons of Meaning into the Warchowski brothers' live-action homage to anime movies.

The "interpreters" will always be there.

[Sky]

I guess contemplating navels gets old after a while.

[stray]

Well that didn't stop poseurs from reading tons of Meaning into the Warchowski brothers' live-action homage to anime movies.

The "interpreters" will always be there.

Well, they actually had the luxury of designing those stories without 20 year gaps within each other. They kind of were designed with "tons of Meaning" in mind.

Or rather, not exactly tons of meaning, but tons of intentionally placed symbols and references.

[ahoythematey]

I just finished watching eps. 1 through 3 in a row.  I think part of the reason I don't mind the poor dialogue is because I see the visual imagery and aural imagery as the two primary factors in the stories(similar to silent movies), with the dialogue there to give a helping hand in fleshing out exposition.  Essentially, I view them with the music and dialogue in reversed roles of what is typical in most movies, and I end up enjoying them significantly more.  I guess that makes me weird and easily placated in the eyes of most of this community; on the flipside, I think the majority of you lot have a bit of sand in your collective-vagina's and could do a lot worse in scifi/fantasy than the SW prequels.